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Open Carry

self preservation

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Owingsville,KY
I understand your situation, but even those that have the money to do so don't want to spend it trying to get the government to obey the law. Michael Mitchell didn't want to get fired from his job and be refuse admission to UK's medical school, the colonists did not want to fight and die to gain independence from Great Britain, the founding father's did not want to give up their prosperous occupations to argue for months on the wording of the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution. Nobody wants to get involved in these things, they are not pleasant, but they need to be pursued at every opportunity to maintain our rights. The alternative is tyranny. We don't need to fight alone. Michael Mitchell had less than you have, I suspect. He got help from KC3 and now is looking at a possible large settlement. Help is available to those that have a winnable case and are in the right. No one has money to waste on a fruitless endeavors. The Second Amendment Foundation is racking up win after win in court. Each of them makes money for them and their attorneys and funds the next suit. Members of this board in other states have received donations to help them fight repressive government actions. This is why we must know the law and be absolutely certain that we are in the right. We must stand together, none of us can fight the government alone. They can always out spend us. We need to out smart them.People on this board are fond of saying that "you may beat the charge, but you can't beat the ride" and that is true. We need to change that to. "you might make the arrest, but you can't miss the lawsuit".

Love the "you might make the arrest, but you can't miss the lawsuit" saying. I'll give you a dollar everytime I say it from now on. I understand your points and am glad you see mine. Another old saying that I often remember is "a man must pick his battles" And by that I mean we are all fighting the same war, we just sometimes are fighting different battles to win this common war. I believe that you are that one that once told me that "our rights are always under attack" and I agree. One user on OCDO was fighting an illegal seizure of his firearm, another fighting LFUCG over illegal signs and ordinances. Two members talked to like dog sh!t and had to face the treat of arrest even though they are dead right in what they are saying. One that was trying to find information out after he was refused to buy hollow points because the sheriff said the dealer couldnt sell those "cop killers" to just anyone . I myself feel that I have made a small contribution to this cause by preventing such illegal signs from going up. Everyone has their place on these issues and none of us can take on the whole enchilada on our own. Now you mention that a lot of folks have had to do a lot of things that were not pleasant...I agree. But my simple stance on the OC'd gun in a seated position and being charged with CC is this, I agree it's BS and would be an illegal charge, but at this point in my life I cant "bait" a LEO just to see if I can get a good outcome in court and to claim a victory for us all. Now years down the road when my son is grown, my wife has ran off with a rich doctor, my house is finally paid for and I'm retired....I could be more apt to push this issue and test the waters. And just like you mentioned with the Mitchell case, I'm sure he didnt want to face this headache, and I'm sure he will get a little pocket money for his troubles. But I also bet that his family has felt the financial sting of this ordeal. Now granted he will turn out fine in the long run and I'm sorry he was the one that had to fight this battle. But I doubt he came to work and thought "hope they fire me so I can sue because I know I'm in the right and will win in court" If I remember correctly either Kyglockster or issac made the comment in a post that they would still fight Lawerence county illegal ordinance, but after they faced the threat of arrest that they would probably not OC there again until they could get something changed (not word for word but I think I'm pretty close to how that went. If I am way off base I'm sorry) I guess I'm just taking their risk vs benefit attitude for the time being. And as you said, if an OC'er gets a CC charge today..I will be more than glad to throw as many dollars his way as I can to help him. But for me, I just simply can't volunteer to fight that beast right now. At least not that beast. Now I OC everyday and could be arrested and face charges for doing so.(probably wont happen but could) But I am willing to take that risk and fight that beast because I feel more strongly about OC in general than I do about a BS CC charged when one is in fact OC'ing. Like I stated, we all have our battles that we can and can not fight...this is just one battle that for now I can not be the "Micheal Mitchell" on.
 

self preservation

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Owingsville,KY

A very intelligent and reasoned response. I didn't want to minimize your efforts and real accomplishments. They have been exceptional for someone who has been on this board such a short time and your posts are thought provoking and helpful. I wish everyone on OCDC would do as much as you in their first few months.

Thank you, sir.
 

KYGlockster

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Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
I don't ever see a charge of ccw sticking for leaving your gun on your hip in your vehicle. The Ky supreme court is the highest court in the state. In the Holland v. Commonwealth case, the court stated in their ruling that:

In our state the legislature is empowered only to deny to citizens the right to carry concealed weapons. The constitutional provision is an affirmation of the faith that all men have the inherent right to arm themselves for the defense of themselves and of the state. The only limitation concerns the mode of carrying such instruments. We observe, via obiter dicta, that although a person is granted the right to carry a weapon openly, a severe penalty is imposed for carrying it concealed. If the gun is worn outside the
jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do; but if it is carried under the jacket or shirt, the violator is subject to imprisonment for not less than two nor more than five years.
The heavy emphasis, we suppose, is upon the undue advantage given to a person who is able suddenly to expose and use a weapon, although the gun itself is the vicious instrument………."

While setting in your vehicle, as long as the firearm is still worn outside your shirt, then no one may question your right to do so. With this ruling, a prosecutor's case is DOA. The legal term "stare decisis" means: "to let the decision stand." This means (among other things) that a lower court can't reverse a higher courts ruling, therefore since the supreme court is the highest court in the state, then however they rule is how future cases will be interpreted. Unless of course there is a federal issue involved, however in such a case, it would be an issue with Ky law and the Ky constitution. Of course once your case is dismissed, then you could file a federal lawsuit for depriving you of your civil rights and wrongful arrest.
 
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self preservation

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Owingsville,KY
I don't ever see a charge of ccw sticking for leaving your gun on your hip in your vehicle. The Ky supreme court is the highest court in the state. In the Holland v. Commonwealth case, the court stated in their ruling that:

In our state the legislature is empowered only to deny to citizens the right to carry concealed weapons. The constitutional provision is an affirmation of the faith that all men have the inherent right to arm themselves for the defense of themselves and of the state. The only limitation concerns the mode of carrying such instruments. We observe, via obiter dicta, that although a person is granted the right to carry a weapon openly, a severe penalty is imposed for carrying it concealed. If the gun is worn outside the
jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do; but if it is carried under the jacket or shirt, the violator is subject to imprisonment for not less than two nor more than five years.
The heavy emphasis, we suppose, is upon the undue advantage given to a person who is able suddenly to expose and use a weapon, although the gun itself is the vicious instrument………."

While setting in your vehicle, as long as the firearm is still worn outside your shirt, then no one may question your right to do so. With this ruling, a prosecutor's case is DOA. The legal term "stare decisis" means: "to let the decision stand." This means (among other things) that a lower court can't reverse a higher courts ruling, therefore since the supreme court is the highest court in the state, then however they rule is how future cases will be interpreted. Unless of course there is a federal issue involved, however in such a case, it would be an issue with Ky law and the Ky constitution. Of course once your case is dismissed, then you could file a federal lawsuit for depriving you of your civil rights and wrongful arrest.

I don't know of any cases like this in KY that has stuck...but to be fair I really haven't checked either. I just know that if Trooper XXXXX XXXXXX that is assigned to the Bath County area ever traffic stops you and you are OC'ing while in a seated position you will be charged with CC.(assuming you're not a CCDW holder) And I like to point out that this Trooper isn't new and really is one hell of a nice guy (I know that nice guy's can still be A hole cops) and I dont believe he is out to make a name for himself, he just told me that this is KSP policy. Sad considering that you can read Holland v. Commonwealth and clearly see that this is a bad policy. Guess the policy writers should spend more time researching law instead of just writing sh!t in a policy book just to be writing sh!t in a policy book. But as Gutshot said, until a non-CCDW OC'er get's put in the position and goes after a 1983 suit and prevails, I fear that this will continue to lurk over our heads.
 

hotrod

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Union, Kentucky, USA
I don't know of any cases like this in KY that has stuck...but to be fair I really haven't checked either. I just know that if Trooper XXXXX XXXXXX that is assigned to the Bath County area ever traffic stops you and you are OC'ing while in a seated position you will be charged with CC.(assuming you're not a CCDW holder) And I like to point out that this Trooper isn't new and really is one hell of a nice guy (I know that nice guy's can still be A hole cops) and I dont believe he is out to make a name for himself, he just told me that this is KSP policy. Sad considering that you can read Holland v. Commonwealth and clearly see that this is a bad policy. Guess the policy writers should spend more time researching law instead of just writing sh!t in a policy book just to be writing sh!t in a policy book. But as Gutshot said, until a non-CCDW OC'er get's put in the position and goes after a 1983 suit and prevails, I fear that this will continue to lurk over our heads.

That is NOT Kentucky State Police policy. There is no written policy to arrest for open carry (on your person) in your vehicle.
 
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KYGlockster

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No that is not Ky state police policy. If that was their' policy, then the state of Ky would have went broke paying out settlements on losing lawsuits. If they had a policy to arrest someone for legal activity I am certain the public would have known it by now. You should report this trooper and his remarks about arresting folks for legally exercising their rights.
 

self preservation

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I have never read KSP policy on anything, but if you two say that no such policy exist, I'll take your word for it. But in light of that information it is now even scarier to me that a Trooper himself would not know/misunderstand that...
 

self preservation

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But then again Ky's CCDW laws are kinda wishy washy. For example, the license is called Carry and Conceal of a Deadly Weapon, but yet they list these non/less lethal weapons as ok to carry if you are a CCDW holder.
•Billy, nightstick, or club.
•Blackjack or slapjack.
•Nunchaku karate sticks.
•Shiriken or death star.
•Artificial knuckles made from plastic, or other similar hard material

So does Ky prohibit any kind of concealed weapon? Or just deadly concealed weapons?
 

self preservation

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I don't know what you mean by "non/less lethal". Everything you have listed in your post is a deadly weapon in Ky. If you hit another person in the head with a club and he dies, he is just as dead as a person who is shot to death. A CCDW does not "allow" you to carry anything. It allows you to conceal things. KRS 527.020 says,

(1) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon when he or she carries concealed a firearm or other deadly weapon on or about his or her person.


Once again, all of the things you have mentioned are deadly weapons in Ky., by statute. They are defined as deadly weapons in KRS 237.110. Anything used as one of these things is also a deadly weapon. A pool stick is a deadly weapon, if you use it as a club. Same with a chair. Doesn't seem "wishy washy" to me. It seems concise and direct.

I just wasn't sure how Ky law viewed it. I know that the hells angels prefer to carry a ball pein hammer concealed because it isn't considered a weapon, so therefore no criminal charges. And what I mean by "non/less lethel" is that most manufactuers that make these weapons label them as such. I remember when the bean bag shot gun shells were first being used by LE. They were listed as "non-lethel" which by definition meant that you could not be killed by them. Problem was that from time to time a person would catch one in the throat or take a hit to the chest over the heart and would die from it. So most manufactuers scraped the term "non-lethel" and changed it to "less lethel" whick basically means that that particular weapon wasn't designed to kill a person but could. It is true that any of these item's could be turned into a deadly weapon. But like you say that is true of pretty much any and everything. Pool sticks, chairs...hell for that matter I could take my cell phone and shove it down a man's throat and choke him to death. But I doubt I will ever be arrested for having my cell phone in pocket, concealed.. I guess it's all about state statute and what they say. The maker of the asp baton use to promote them as "less lethel." The wording may have changed over the years and that may be where my confusion is coming from.
 

KYGlockster

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In Ky the license is called a "Concealed Deadly Weapon License." All the items you listed can be carried without a CDWL as long as they are carried OPENLY. That is why our license is a CONCEALED license and not a "weapons permit" or "pistol permit" etc. Ky law is very well written and clear of it's intent. If There is no law that prohibits something, then it is legal. There is no law prohibiting the openly carrying of these deadly weapons, therefore it is legal to do so. The law does not tell you what you can do, it tells you what you can't do. The license simply gives you the option of CONCEALING these weapons without facing a ccdw charge.
 

self preservation

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So the way I take it is, some of these weapons, lets say a baton, are considered "less lethal" by the the folks who make them, but are considered "deadly" by Ky law. I can see that. As far as the hells angels, I saw that on a documentary one time. Don't really know anymore other than they made the comment about the hammer and how they prefered them. It's kind of like when the police find a body with a smashed head....they say "we haven't found the weapon yet" Then the next dat they find a bloody hammer in the weeds then they say "we have found the weapon used in this murder" Stanley, Eastwing, Kobalt...whoever made this hammer didn't design it as a weapon...some person just descided to utilize that way. Am I getting closer?
 

KYGlockster

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Think about the terminology for a moment. They say their product is less lethal, meaning it is not as lethal as a firearm, but it is still a lethal weapon, therefore it is a deadly weapon. Take rubber bullets for example. They are classified as a less lethal approach when dealing with a violent suspect. However they are still capable of causing death because they could strike an individual with enough force if hit in the proper place to produce great bodily harm or death. Almost anything can be used as a deadly weapon if you intend to do so. I could pick a brick up and it is just a brick. If I take the same brick and smash someone's skull with it, then it turns into a deadly weapon. It is how the object is used that determines whether it is to be considered deadly or not. If you kill someone with any object, then that object will be considered a deadly weapon.
 

kywildcat581

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Sep 27, 2009
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Louisville, Kentucky, USA
I don't know what you mean by "non/less lethal". Everything you have listed in your post is a deadly weapon in Ky. If you hit another person in the head with a club and he dies, he is just as dead as a person who is shot to death. A CCDW does not "allow" you to carry anything. It allows you to conceal things. KRS 527.020 says,

(1) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon when he or she carries concealed a firearm or other deadly weapon on or about his or her person.


Once again, all of the things you have mentioned are deadly weapons in Ky., by statute. They are defined as deadly weapons in KRS 237.110. Anything used as one of these things is also a deadly weapon. A pool stick is a deadly weapon, if you use it as a club. Same with a chair. Doesn't seem "wishy washy" to me. It seems concise and direct.

And honestly I am glad some of these devices are labeled as deadly weapons considering there are no levels of deadly force involved with Kentucky, deadly force is deadly force. B those items being labeled as deadly weapons it allows us to respond back withour own method of deadly force and puts the term into reality, dont bring a knife to a gun fight. If those items werent listed as deadly weapons then someone could beat you down with brass knuckles and you could not draw your sidearm without facing a murder charge. I would like to see a few other items added to that list. Altough they aren't 100% of the time deadly, neither are bullets. But both classes have a fatal potential.

BTW Gutshot, i was agreeing with ya buddy :)
 
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