CHP Application question

roscoe13 said:

Fauquier Co. has the same requirements for extra copies, and every page of every copy must be notarized. My CHP expires in July, and I've missed the window for the renewal to be tacked on to my current permit, so come July 1, I'm going to submit my renewal with only one copy

Roscoe

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Keep us up on how this works out roscoe.
I see a fight coming with a few Clerks and Judges.

skidmark said:

If so, they may in violation of the law. The Clerk must charge $10. I'm pretty sure that the State Police are not going to give up their $5. Does anybody know if the FBI does not charge for providing criminal history record information - especially since the law makes provision for paying them for that information?

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It was my impression that the FBI charge was if you submitted fingerprints. I don't think they are required to use the FBI at all, if there are no fingerprints to submit.

Its somewhat amusing to codify what non-state agencies can charge you, I'm sure they don't care what Virginia law says.

For reference, here is the full text from 18.2-308 on the fees:

"The clerk shall charge a fee of $10 for the processing of an application or issuing of a permit, including his costs associated with the consultation with law-enforcement agencies. The local law-enforcement agency conducting the background investigation may charge a fee not to exceed $35 to cover the cost of conducting an investigation pursuant to this section. The $35 fee shall include any amount assessed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for providing criminal history record information, and the local law-enforcement agency shall forward the amount assessed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to the State Police with the fingerprints taken from the applicant. The State Police may charge a fee not to exceed $5 to cover their costs associated with processing the application. The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who accepts the application."

TFred

roscoe13 said:

Fauquier Co. has the same requirements for extra copies, and every page of every copy must be notarized. My CHP expires in July, and I've missed the window for the renewal to be tacked on to my current permit, so come July 1, I'm going to submit my renewal with only one copy

Roscoe

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May we presume the one copy is for your records after it is date stamped?

roscoe13 said:

Fauquier Co. has the same requirements for extra copies, and every page of every copy must be notarized. My CHP expires in July, and I've missed the window for the renewal to be tacked on to my current permit, so come July 1, I'm going to submit my renewal with only one copy

Roscoe

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What? Where'd that come from? You only need two copies, one for you and one for the clerk, and the document doesn't actually have to be notarized at all. It has to be signed under penalty of perjury, pursuant to 8.01-4.3 (good luck convincing the clerk or the VSP of that).

user said:

What? Where'd that come from? You only need two copies, one for you and one for the clerk, and the document doesn't actually have to be notarized at all. It has to be signed under penalty of perjury, pursuant to 8.01-4.3 (good luck convincing the clerk or the VSP of that).

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Fauquier County permit application process:

http://www.fauquiercounty.gov/government/departments/circuitcourt/index.cfm?action=conhandgunpermit

You must file:

1. The original application signed by you in front of a notary plus 2 copies of each page even if the page is blank and:

3 copies of your Certificate of Firearms Competence (copy of current unexpired permit if you are renewing). Note: in lieu of a certificate of firearms competence, you may use any honorable Discharge DD214.

3 copies of any attachments for processing required by application.

Please appear with a valid operator’s license at the time of filing the application.

Filing fee of $50.00 payable to Clerk, Circuit Court of Fauquier County. (This fee includes $35.00 for the cost of the investigation by the local sheriff, $5.00 to the State Police and $10.00 to the Clerk.). Our office will make the required copies for an additional $5.00 charge.

Blk97F150 said:

Fauquier County permit application process:

http://www.fauquiercounty.gov/government/departments/circuitcourt/index.cfm?action=conhandgunpermit

You must file:

1. The original application signed by you in front of a notary plus 2 copies of each page even if the page is blank and:

3 copies of your Certificate of Firearms Competence (copy of current unexpired permit if you are renewing). Note: in lieu of a certificate of firearms competence, you may use any honorable Discharge DD214.

3 copies of any attachments for processing required by application.

Please appear with a valid operator’s license at the time of filing the application.

Filing fee of $50.00 payable to Clerk, Circuit Court of Fauquier County. (This fee includes $35.00 for the cost of the investigation by the local sheriff, $5.00 to the State Police and $10.00 to the Clerk.). Our office will make the required copies for an additional $5.00 charge.

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They really do make up their own rules and charges don't they, but then because there are no "required" copies, there should be no "additional" charges - right?

BTW just to clarify - one's previous CHP does not have to be "unexpired." The statutory requirements having been met once do not cease to exist when the permit goes out of date. Evidence of a prior approved/issued permit makes the application a renewal application - it is an application to renew.

I see Hanover is still stepping over the line...Their day is coming soon!

How are concealed handgun permits issued in Hanover County?

The first step, whether you are applying for a concealed handgun permit for the first time or for renewal of an existing permit, is to submit to the Hanover County Sheriff's Department (1) a completed application, (2) proof of handgun competency, (3) a stamped self-addressed envelope, and (4) a check or money order in the amount of $50 made payable to Hanover County Circuit Court Clerk.

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Anyone in Hanover getting ready to apply?

user said:

What? Where'd that come from? You only need two copies, one for you and one for the clerk, and the document doesn't actually have to be notarized at all. It has to be signed under penalty of perjury, pursuant to 8.01-4.3 (good luck convincing the clerk or the VSP of that).

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The VSP form has the space for the Notary's signature at the bottom, and the CHP code does state this:

"The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths..."

Seems pretty straightforward.

TFred

ETA: Ha ha, I should know better than to doubt the Big Gun!
ETA(2): However... does filing a court document count the same as a "judicial proceeding?" Reading the code, not sure it applies to an application...

§ 8.01-4.3. Unsworn declarations under penalty of perjury; penalty.

If a matter in any judicial proceeding or administrative hearing is required or permitted to be established by a sworn written declaration, verification, certificate, statement, oath, or affidavit, such matter may, with like force and effect, be evidenced, by the unsworn written declaration, certificate, verification, or statement, which is subscribed by the maker as true under penalty of perjury, and dated, in substantially the following form:

"I declare (or certify, verify or state) under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct."

This section shall not apply to a deposition, an oath of office, or an oath required to be taken before a specified official other than a notary public.

TFred said:

--snip--

§ 8.01-4.3. Unsworn declarations under penalty of perjury; penalty.

If a matter in any judicial proceeding or administrative hearing is required or permitted to be established by a sworn written declaration, verification, certificate, statement, oath, or affidavit, such matter may, with like force and effect, be evidenced, by the unsworn written declaration, certificate, verification, or statement, which is subscribed by the maker as true under penalty of perjury, and dated, in substantially the following form:

"I declare (or certify, verify or state) under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct."

This section shall not apply to a deposition, an oath of office, or an oath required to be taken before a specified official other than a notary public.

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The way I read the above is that a declaration under penalty of perjury does specifically apply where a notary public would otherwise be utilized. "...shall not apply to....other than a notary public" = only to a notary.

That would be consistent with user's interpretation too.

Blk97F150 said:

Fauquier County permit application process:

http://www.fauquiercounty.gov/government/departments/circuitcourt/index.cfm?action=conhandgunpermit

You must file:

1. The original application signed by you in front of a notary plus 2 copies of each page even if the page is blank and:

....

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If you sign the application form in front of the Clerk/Deputy Clerk it is NOT being signed in front of a notary, that worthy being a person specifically commissioned by such by the Secretary of the Commonwealth. And if they hold a notary commission in addition to their position as a Court officer and act as a notary they need to complete the notorial jurat and not sign the line marked for the court clerk. One can be both a notary and a court clerk, but not at the same time.

The need to include a copy of any otherwise blank pages would be because the CHP application form itself is multipaged. Thus, any copy of the application form must also be multipaged.

But since the law does not require the applicant to submit copies in addition to the original, the Clerk can at their convenience make as many additional copies as they wish and certify them as true and correct based on 1) personal knowledge that the original is in fact the paper/writing submitted by the applicant and 2) confidence that the copying machine did not make subtle changes to the form or the writings upon it, and 3) personal knowledge that the items certified as true copies were made from the original document. They can affix as many stamps and/or seals as they desire.

Seems as if there may be multiple violations of multiple laws being committed in the processing of CHP applications.

stay safe.

user said:

What? Where'd that come from? You only need two copies, one for you and one for the clerk, and the document doesn't actually have to be notarized at all. It has to be signed under penalty of perjury, pursuant to 8.01-4.3 (good luck convincing the clerk or the VSP of that).

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Where in the law does it say I need a copy for myself? If a copy is needed it can be obtained from the Clerk's records, which we all know are pristine and accurate in every detail.:uhoh:

And just to amplify - the need to have your signature notarized is only if you do not sign in front of the Clerk. There is both a notorial jurat and a Clerk's certification available for use on the form. Just because certain lines exist does not mean they need to be used.

My last application foray was at the Clerk's office. I lined through
[*]like this[/*] the jurat, leaving just the line for the Clerk's signature, and reminded the nice lady to append the word "Deputy" in front of the printed work "Clerk". She smiled, thanked me for reminding her, and commented positively on my knowledge of legal filing procedures.

stay safe.

ETA - someone who told me that
[*][/*] would create lined-through printing is going to get an earful.

skidmark said:

". She smiled, thanked me for reminding her, and commented positively on my knowledge of legal filing procedures.

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Bet that ain't the only thing she commented on after you left:lol:

skidmark said:

But since the law does not require the applicant to submit copies in addition to the original, the Clerk can at their convenience make as many additional copies as they wish and certify them as true and correct based on 1) personal knowledge that the original is in fact the paper/writing submitted by the applicant and 2) confidence that the copying machine did not make subtle changes to the form or the writings upon it, and 3) personal knowledge that the items certified as true copies were made from the original document.

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What law prohibits the clerk from asking for or even requiring multiple copies?

skidmark said:

[*][/*] would create lined-through printing is going to get an earful.

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I believe the key word is "strike", not "*".

Testing, this is good, [strike]but this is stricken.[/strike]

TFred

BillB said:

What law prohibits the clerk from asking for or even requiring multiple copies?

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Prior to July 1, 2012, it's the principle of the thing. The law says what they may require, anything else is not authorized, and should therefore, not be a requirement imposed without authority. Where do you draw the line at ridiculous? You can't, so nothing "extra" should be allowed.

After July 1, 2012, whole new ballgame. The General Assembly saw the point. See highlighted text in Paragraph D of the code here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+ful+CHAP0291+hil

TFred

TFred said:

Prior to July 1, 2012, it's the principle of the thing. The law says what they may require, anything else is not authorized, and should therefore, not be a requirement imposed without authority. Where do you draw the line at ridiculous? You can't, so nothing "extra" should be allowed.

After July 1, 2012, whole new ballgame. The General Assembly saw the point. See highlighted text in Paragraph D of the code here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+ful+CHAP0291+hil

TFred

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Maybe TFred. There is a hole in it that you could drie a truck through and still no teeth.

They will argue that they don't want more information or documentation than is on the application, they just want copies.

BillB said:

What law prohibits the clerk from asking for or even requiring multiple copies?

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If it is not specifically spelled out/authorized by the Code of Virginia in 18.2-308 it is extra-legal, not authorized.
http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

Then add to that VA is a Dillon Rule state = municipalities may only do what they are specifically authorized to do by the state.
Pretty much locks the municipalities out of creating rules/procedures not specifically authorized by the statute.

BTW - the clerk can "ask" - but he/she cannot demand/require. If you do supply extra legal paper work or whatever, shame on you - you do so consensually.

peter nap said:

Maybe TFred. There is a hole in it that you could drie a truck through and still no teeth.

They will argue that they don't want more information or documentation than is on the application, they just want copies.

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That is the way I see it. Additionally, there is even a notice on the application that states:

"COMPLETE AND NOTARIZED APPLICATIONS FOR RESIDENT PERMITS SHALL BE FORWARDED TO THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE COUNTY OR CITY IN WHICH THE APPLICANT RESIDES. THE APPLICANT SHOULD CONSULT WITH THE COURT AUTHORITIES FOR INSTRUCTION AND GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO HIS OR HER APPLICATION."

peter nap said:

Maybe TFred. There is a hole in it that you could drie a truck through and still no teeth.

They will argue that they don't want more information or documentation than is on the application, they just want copies.

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Personal liability needed for officials that willfully violate the law.



Azzbiter, German bred K9 - instinctively goes straight for the wallet.

grapeshot said:

personal liability needed for officials that willfully violate the law.

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amen!