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Thread: A year to get a permit? They are freaking nuts !

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    A year to get a permit? They are freaking nuts !

    From: "Mazzoccoli, Susan" <Susan.Mazzoccoli@ct.gov>

    Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:27 AM
    Subject: RE: Permit appeal -- attached

    Wait time for an administrative hearing is presently 6-7 months.

    http://www.ct.gov/bfpe/cwp/view.asp?a=3598&Q=478410


    Susan Mazzoccoli
    Board of Firearms Permit Examiners

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    You may as well file an appeal before you file your paperwork with the police !

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    SPLFU Intentionally backlog the Board

    SPLFU Intentionally backlog the Board of Firearms examiners, and pull cases off last minute, last year they had a dead guy on there for 9 months untill i pointed it out, to the commisioner, a firearms murder sucide, on a protective order, not some accidental death forgot to remove from the list mistake..... They always settle last minute, day of hearing, on things that FOIA reports (diary entries) show they settle on all the time. Yet it appears they never get called out. That is the problem with the back log, also det mattson voilating peoples rights, giveing bad info to the departments, there's foia's from her superior Doug Hall former XO, of the unit saying she is a biast, law braking, zelot, but not in those exact words, but painting that impression. Everyone one involved just keeps watching the water attempting to get raked up the hill. Total nightmare.

    If there was a campain, an public outcry, to the Commisioner for Mattsons removal from the unit, change for the better would begin!

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post


    If there was a campain, an public outcry, to the Commisioner for Mattsons removal from the unit, change for the better would begin!
    +1

    Also, last hearing had a TON of agreements before the hearing ever started. There was a cancelled hearing date in between, so I expected it to be a little larger - but DAYUM!

    The problem I have with SLFU in this process of revocations is the LARGE number of overturned revocations. I only started tracking the numbers recently, but the overturned rares are well over 50 percent.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    SPLFU Intentionally backlog the Board of Firearms examiners, and pull cases off last minute, last year they had a dead guy on there for 9 months untill i pointed it out, to the commisioner, a firearms murder sucide, on a protective order, not some accidental death forgot to remove from the list mistake..... They always settle last minute, day of hearing, on things that FOIA reports (diary entries) show they settle on all the time. Yet it appears they never get called out.

    Well, I can understand a dead guy(s) still being on the list...he (they) didn't call and cancel, right? 9 months? Still did not get heard yet .. that is sad.

    And settling the case before the hearing? This is up to the individual litigants ... people want their permits and the settlement assures them of it ... not agreeing and asking for sanctions runs the risk of not getting the permit so I understand why people agree to the settlements.

    I would never tell a person not to accept a settlement for political reasons ... if they are happy, they're happy. Yes, I read the meeting minutes etc. Believe me, I will not settle my case and they'll be getting an earful from me...and a civil complaint if it takes more than 3 months.

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    I don't think you're following the agreement issues.

    Some towns drag the process out, wait for an appeal date (making the citizen wait for his permit) for cases almost up to a year. Then, rather than appear (many knowing they will lose) grant the permit.

    It's a stalling tactic and is denying a citizen their due process rights in the interim.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post

    It's a stalling tactic and is denying a citizen their due process rights in the interim.

    Jonathan
    It certainly is a stalling tactic and the process itself violates due process. I don't know if any writs have been issued by any court(s) in regards to these board activities.

    Sec. 4-180. Contested cases. Final decision. Application to court upon agency failure. (a) Each agency shall proceed with reasonable dispatch to conclude any matter pending before it and, in all contested cases, shall render a final decision within ninety days following the close of evidence or the due date for the filing of briefs, whichever is later, in such proceedings.

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Look up Kuck v Danaher (I think the docs are on Ed Peruta's site).

    I believe that goes in this same avenue we are discussing here.

    Either way, they violate due process far too much.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    Either way, they violate due process far too much.

    Jonathan
    Interestingly, when they ask you for more information after you file a letter that they DIRECT you to file as a proper complaint, then this is likely a due process issue from cases I have read.

    Now I have filed (this week) a request to get my case on the next docket or even earlier (they can schedule hearings whenever). The reason? Because the >>6mo delay would put my life and others at risk. The US Army requires range practice every 6 mo. to maintain proficiency with a M9 handgun (and I attached the Army manual as an exhibit); its going to be impossible for the board to say 9-12 months is OK prior to granting a hearing without acknowledging that such a delay may put people at risk (and the state's position is that range shooting is favored and proficiency is, as a public policy, a good thing). So you need a permit to do this. If they do not reply to my request for placement on the next calendered hearing date .. I will go anyway and raise a big stink.

    The time period required, under Chap. 54 is reasonable dispatch. This time period is considered on a case by case basis (or case type) really. If the time period is so great that it puts your life in danger, then clearly its an issue. Its a point I intend on driving home.


    (also, I have a complaint filed in the claims commission that I will amend so that I may be able to sue the state for this BS .. we'll see)
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-27-2012 at 03:33 AM.

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    Am i reading this wrong?

    http://www.ct.gov/bfpe/cwp/view.asp?a=3598&Q=478410

    Seems to be quite a few revocations...what is up with that?

    Didn't mean to jump your thread from out of state, but I have been folowing this...I thought the main problem was just getting it in the first place..
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    http://www.ct.gov/bfpe/cwp/view.asp?a=3598&Q=478410

    Seems to be quite a few revocations...what is up with that?

    Didn't mean to jump your thread from out of state, but I have been folowing this...I thought the main problem was just getting it in the first place..
    The state police have been revoking permits for a long time for pretty much any reason just to cause problems for permit holders.
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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Also, the hearing prior to the last one was a "denials only" day. Hence, just over two dozen cases were put on the agenda for that day.

    Macbeth: I don't see how you can request your hearing before someone else. I think the current wait is just a tad over six months.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    You aint going to the front of the list

    “Now I have filed (this week) a request to get my case on the next docket or even earlier (they can schedule hearings whenever). The reason? Because the >>6mo delay would put my life and others at risk. The US Army requires range practice every 6 mo. to maintain proficiency with a M9 handgun (and I attached the Army manual as an exhibit); its going to be impossible for the board to say 9-12 months is OK prior to granting a hearing without acknowledging that such a delay may put people at risk (and the state's position is that range shooting is favored and proficiency is, as a public policy, a good thing). So you need a permit to do this. If they do not reply to my request for placement on the next calendered hearing date .. I will go anyway and raise a big stink.

    The time period required, under Chap. 54 is reasonable dispatch. This time period is considered on a case by case basis (or case type) really. If the time period is so great that it puts your life in danger, then clearly its an issue. Its a point I intend on driving home.”


    Dave that's never going to work you can go to the firing range with an eligibility certificate. There's verbiage in the statute for formalized training I asked for a written opinion last year and was told by the firearms unit that transporting a pistol to the range and a locked container, is suitable for that type of formal training, there’s also clauses for military personel. I took my pistol to the airport with eldg certificate , when I traveled to Florida because I have a Florida Permit,…….. Dude I'm saying this to egg you on, there ain't no way you're getting to the front line, I'd like to see you prove me wrong but it ain't going to happen. Good luck, lol.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    you can go to the firing range with an eligibility certificate.
    No you can't, without a permit you may not even take it out your front door except under very limited circumstances. Here's the statute: http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/ch...m#Sec29-35.htm

    The part regarding transporting to training states, "or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver in or through the state for the purpose of taking part in competitions, taking part in formal pistol or revolver training, repairing such pistol or revolver or attending any meeting or exhibition of an organized collectors' group if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides."

    This, " if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides." being the important part. Without a permit from your state of residence you may not transport even for training in CT.

    I also see no exemption for military personnel to go to training in that statute, seems they are exempt only when, "on duty or going to or from duty, or to any member of any military organization when on parade or when going to or from any place of assembly,".
    Member:, NRA Patron Life, NSSF, CCDL, CT Carry, MRPC and Bell City
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    You're wrong not me dude

    you're wrong

    I was told by the Department of public safety that "formal training" is going to the range, I have a written declaratory ruling to my questions from Thomas Hatfield, and attorney for public safety legal affairs also I was stopped at the board of firearms hearing by Douglas Hall, & LT Cassista, while he was still a state police officer. Aou can go to the range which is considered formal training with your pistol permit, . "Formal training" is going to a "state licensed range" not going out of the woods and exploding targets but if you go to a "state licenced range" that is considered "formal training by the Department of Public safety", they wrote me a letter stating that, otherwise I would've been arrested, I took my pistol to the airport with eligibility certificate and got on airplane when the Florida then brought the firearm back, that was clear to the department of public safety also. I even told him that when I was at the border firearms examiners and no one commented on it that I drove my pistol to the airport when I went to Florida, and even stated so at the board of firearms examiners during my hearing, and that was a non issue.

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    Sec. 29-36f. Eligibility certificate for pistol or revolver. (a) Any person who is twenty-one years of age or older may apply to the Commissioner of Public Safety for an eligibility certificate for a pistol or revolver.

    (b) The Commissioner of Public Safety shall issue an eligibility certificate unless said commissioner finds that the applicant: (1) Has failed to successfully complete a course approved by the Commissioner of Public Safety in the safety and use of pistols and revolvers including, but not limited to, a safety or training course in the use of pistols and revolvers available to the public offered by a law enforcement agency, a private or public educational institution or a firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Environmental Protection and a safety or training course in the use of pistols or revolvers conducted by an instructor certified by the state or the National Rifle Association; (2) has been convicted of a felony or of a violation of subsection (c) of section 21a-279, section 53a-58, 53a-61, 53a-61a, 53a-62, 53a-63, 53a-96, 53a-175, 53a-176, 53a-178 or 53a-181d; (3) has been convicted as delinquent for the commission of a serious juvenile offense, as defined in section 46b-120; (4) has been discharged from custody within the preceding twenty years after having been found not guilty of a crime by reason of mental disease or defect pursuant to section 53a-13; (5) has been confined in a hospital for persons with psychiatric disabilities, as defined in section 17a-495, within the preceding twelve months by order of a probate court; (6) is subject to a restraining or protective order issued by a court in a case involving the use, attempted use or threatened use of physical force against another person; (7) is subject to a firearms seizure order issued pursuant to subsection (d) of section 29-38c after notice and hearing; (8) is prohibited from shipping, transporting, possessing or receiving a firearm pursuant to 18 USC 922(g)(4); or (9) is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States.



    Sec. 29-35. Carrying of pistol or revolver without permit prohibited. Exceptions. (a) No person shall carry any pistol or revolver upon his or her person, except when such person is within the dwelling house or place of business of such person, without a permit to carry the same issued as provided in section 29-28. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to the carrying of any pistol or revolver by any parole officer or peace officer of this state, or parole officer or peace officer of any other state while engaged in the pursuit of official duties, or federal marshal or federal law enforcement agent, or to any member of the armed forces of the United States, as defined in section 27-103, or of this state, as defined in section 27-2, when on duty or going to or from duty, or to any member of any military organization when on parade or when going to or from any place of assembly, or to the transportation of pistols or revolvers as merchandise, or to any person transporting any pistol or revolver while contained in the package in which it was originally wrapped at the time of sale and while transporting the same from the place of sale to the purchaser's residence or place of business, or to any person removing such person's household goods or effects from one place to another, or to any person while transporting any such pistol or revolver from such person's place of residence or business to a place or individual where or by whom such pistol or revolver is to be repaired or while returning to such person's place of residence or business after the same has been repaired, or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver in or through the state for the purpose of taking part in competitions, taking part in formal pistol or revolver training, repairing such pistol or revolver or attending any meeting or exhibition of an organized collectors' group if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides, or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver to and from a testing range at the request of the issuing authority, or to any person transporting an antique pistol or revolver, as defined in section 29-33. For the purposes of this subsection, "formal pistol or revolver training" means pistol or revolver training at a locally approved or permitted firing range or training facility, and "transporting a pistol or revolver" means transporting a pistol or revolver that is unloaded and, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle, is not readily accessible or directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle or, if such pistol or revolver is being transported in a motor vehicle that does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, such pistol or revolver shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the carrying of a pistol or revolver during formal pistol or revolver training or repair.

    (b) The holder of a permit issued pursuant to section 29-28 shall carry such permit upon one's person while carrying such pistol or revolver.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-28-2012 at 11:51 PM.

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    As you can see BOTH a certificate and permit requires NRA course. I don't have that. Nor should I be required to undergo such a course.

    Plus, none of the state's "formal pistol or revolver training", 29-35, has sufficient facilities for acquiring proficiency. And what if I wanted to shoot in by backyard to acquire proficiency...shooting in your backyard is not prohibited by law.

    I welcome the critiques .... it will make my argument bullet-proof. Keep them coming ! The laws regarding the eligibility certificate do not authorize transportation of firearms that I could find.


    Also:

    Sec. 29-38. Weapons in vehicles. Penalty. Exceptions. (a) Any person who knowingly has, in any vehicle owned, operated or occupied by such person, any weapon, any pistol or revolver for which a proper permit has not been issued as provided in section 29-28 or any machine gun which has not been registered as required by section 53-202, shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than five years or both, and the presence of any such weapon, pistol or revolver, or machine gun in any vehicle shall be prima facie evidence of a violation of this section by the owner, operator and each occupant thereof. The word "weapon", as used in this section, means any BB. gun, any blackjack, any metal or brass knuckles, any police baton or nightstick, any dirk knife or switch knife, any knife having an automatic spring release device by which a blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches in length, any stiletto, any knife the edged portion of the blade of which is four inches or more in length, any martial arts weapon or electronic defense weapon, as defined in section 53a-3, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument.

    (b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (1) Any officer charged with the preservation of the public peace while engaged in the pursuit of such officer's official duties; (2) any security guard having a baton or nightstick in a vehicle while engaged in the pursuit of such guard's official duties; (3) any person enrolled in and currently attending a martial arts school, with official verification of such enrollment and attendance, or any certified martial arts instructor, having any such martial arts weapon in a vehicle while traveling to or from such school or to or from an authorized event or competition; (4) any person having a BB. gun in a vehicle provided such weapon is unloaded and stored in the trunk of such vehicle or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console; and (5) any person having a knife, the edged portion of the blade of which is four inches or more in length, in a vehicle if such person is (A) any member of the armed forces of the United States, as defined in section 27-103, or any reserve component thereof, or of the armed forces of the state, as defined in section 27-2, when on duty or going to or from duty, (B) any member of any military organization when on parade or when going to or from any place of assembly, (C) any person while transporting such knife as merchandise or for display at an authorized gun or knife show, (D) any person while lawfully removing such person's household goods or effects from one place to another, or from one residence to another, (E) any person while actually and peaceably engaged in carrying any such knife from such person's place of abode or business to a place or person where or by whom such knife is to be repaired, or while actually and peaceably returning to such person's place of abode or business with such knife after the same has been repaired, (F) any person holding a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license issued pursuant to chapter 490 or any salt water fisherman while having such knife in a vehicle for lawful hunting, fishing or trapping activities, or (G) any person participating in an authorized historic reenactment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    No you can't, without a permit you may not even take it out your front door except under very limited circumstances. Here's the statute: http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/ch...m#Sec29-35.htm

    The part regarding transporting to training states, "or to any person transporting a pistol or revolver in or through the state for the purpose of taking part in competitions, taking part in formal pistol or revolver training, repairing such pistol or revolver or attending any meeting or exhibition of an organized collectors' group if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides."

    This, " if such person is a bona fide resident of the United States and is permitted to possess and carry a pistol or revolver in the state or subdivision of the United States in which such person resides." being the important part. Without a permit from your state of residence you may not transport even for training in CT.

    I also see no exemption for military personnel to go to training in that statute, seems they are exempt only when, "on duty or going to or from duty, or to any member of any military organization when on parade or when going to or from any place of assembly,".
    I agree ... could the legislature make a longer sentence? Need a permit IMO

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    David,

    Maybe I missed it, but how do you get to the front of the line?

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    David,

    Maybe I missed it, but how do you get to the front of the line?

    Jonathan
    I didn't - yet. But 1 year is too long for anyone to wait. I think you'll agree with that. I filed an appeal, got a questionnaire & history to complete and return to the board. I filed an objection to this request for several reasons. Since the initial paperwork I got from the board says that a failure to complete the form would result in a dismissal~then its essentially a motion to dismiss. I have also filed an objection on the March 2013 date of hearing on this matter.

    So I will attend the next hearing and try to get my case heard on the spot ... if not, then a trip to the court for a writ would be in order.

    Anyone can file an objection; anyone can file a writ. I have not seen anyone do this so it appears that people are happy waiting 1 yr. I'm not. And I'm willing to fight for an earlier hearing date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    So I will attend the next hearing and try to get my case heard on the spot ... if not, then a trip to the court for a writ would be in order.

    Anyone can file an objection; anyone can file a writ. I have not seen anyone do this so it appears that people are happy waiting 1 yr. I'm not. And I'm willing to fight for an earlier hearing date.
    This is the way to go for those who have the stomach for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    This is the way to go for those who have the stomach for it.
    People who don't object to the time of the hearing date basically are saying "its OK"..in the eyes of the law. Its sad that they treat people in such a manner.

  23. #23
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    you're wrong

    I was told by the Department of public safety that "formal training" is going to the range, I have a written declaratory ruling to my questions from Thomas Hatfield, and attorney for public safety legal affairs also I was stopped at the board of firearms hearing by Douglas Hall, & LT Cassista, while he was still a state police officer. Aou can go to the range which is considered formal training with your pistol permit, . "Formal training" is going to a "state licensed range" not going out of the woods and exploding targets but if you go to a "state licenced range" that is considered "formal training by the Department of Public safety", they wrote me a letter stating that, otherwise I would've been arrested, I took my pistol to the airport with eligibility certificate and got on airplane when the Florida then brought the firearm back, that was clear to the department of public safety also. I even told him that when I was at the border firearms examiners and no one commented on it that I drove my pistol to the airport when I went to Florida, and even stated so at the board of firearms examiners during my hearing, and that was a non issue.
    Never take advice on the law from a police officer. I suggest you contact a good firearms attorney to clarify this with you as what you have done is broken the law on several occassions and just have not gotten caught. If you have such a letter from the DPS legal division let's see it, scan it and put it up!!!
    Member:, NRA Patron Life, NSSF, CCDL, CT Carry, MRPC and Bell City
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    If you have such a letter from the DPS legal division let's see it, scan it and put it up!!!
    +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Never take advice on the law from a police officer. I suggest you contact a good firearms attorney to clarify this with you as what you have done is broken the law on several occassions and just have not gotten caught. If you have such a letter from the DPS legal division let's see it, scan it and put it up!!!
    I've been told by several police departments that if you have a handgun in your car w/o a permit then you will be arrested and you will go to jail and they will take the gun. It does not matter that that point what the law IS, that is what they DO. Plus the law says you need a permit to transport for any reason.

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