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Thread: U. S. House to vote on Trayvon amendment.

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    U. S. House to vote on Trayvon amendment.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...von-amendment/
    House Democrats said Tuesday they will offer an amendment to push to overturn stand-your-ground self-defense laws in states like Florida.

    The amendment, which would withhold some grants from states that have such laws, will come as part of the House's debate on the Commerce Department spending bill.

    "'Shoot-first' laws have already cost too many lives. In Florida alone, deaths due to self-defense have tripled since the law was enacted. Federal money shouldn't be spent supporting states with laws that endanger their own people," said Reps. Raul Grijalva of Arizona and Keith Ellison of Minnesota, the two Democrats who are offering the legislation. "This is no different than withholding transportation funds from states that don't enforce seat-belt laws."

    Florida's law, which allows residents to use force in response to an attack without first having to retreat, has come under scrutiny after the nationally-polarizing death of teenager Trayvon Martin. George Zimmermann, a neighborhood watch volunteer, has been charged with murder in the case.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 05-08-2012 at 05:57 PM.

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    "Florida's self defense related homicides have tripled."

    How many of those self defense shootings saved the life of the shooter? If they all did, then the law is working as intended. The people that are getting shot aren't the good guys. They're getting shot because they're attacking other people. Criminals will eventually learn that the consequences of attacking someone is death.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    "'Shoot-first' laws have already cost too many lives.

    In Florida alone, deaths due to self-defense have tripled since the law was enacted."


    On the first one, What shoot first law?? Never heard of it, never seen a law that said I could shoot first.

    on number two, I would like to see something to back that up senator. Sounds like someone yelling fire in a theatre.

    I did a background check, and they did go from about twelve justifiable homicides a year(2005)to thirty five. Justifiable, that means it was OK to shoot the BG and now they are shooting more than ever. What is bad about that?
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 05-08-2012 at 07:05 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Irish.40's Avatar
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    We don't have a "shoot first" law Rep. Keith Ellison. As a Representative in Minnesota, your are expected to know the laws in your state. So, why then, are you bothering with this at all.

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    Federal money shouldn't be spent supporting states with laws that endanger their own people," said Reps. Raul Grijalva of Arizona and Keith Ellison of Minnesota, the two Democrats who are offering the legislation. "This is no different than withholding transportation funds from states that don't enforce seat-belt laws."
    I totally agree; federal money shouldn't be spent supporting the states at all. Fiscal federalism has gutted state sovereignty in precisely the way Grijalva and Ellison describe with regard to seat-belt laws (also involving transportation funds, the drinking age). Threats to pull federal funds, which make up huge portions of state education budgets, are frequently used to enforce unconstitutional federal mandates.

    Sometimes, it's hard to be a Constitutionalist...
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
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    My first question is, can congress make a law to do this in the first place???
    If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege.
    --- Arkansas Supreme Court, Wilson v. State (1878)

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    My first question is, can congress make a law to do this in the first place?
    D'you mean like the national speed limit of some years ago, enforced in the same manner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    My first question is, can congress make a law to do this in the first place???
    All they are doing is threatening to take away stolen money from all the states, which they had no authority to redistribute in the first place, from some of the states which are displeasing their master. What is the old saying, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you?"
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Federal money shouldn't be spent supporting states with laws that endanger their own people
    But it will be spent supporting the criminals in prison until they are released only to repeat their actions that put them there in the first place. Never mind the families they destroyed along the way.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    "Florida's self defense related homicides have tripled."

    How many of those self defense shootings saved the life of the shooter? If they all did, then the law is working as intended. The people that are getting shot aren't the good guys. They're getting shot because they're attacking other people. Criminals will eventually learn that the consequences of attacking someone is death.
    This is flat out deceptive manipulation.
    If you watch this seminar at the CATO institute one of the experts offers a good explanation of this "triple in self defense homicides". I haven't verified what he said but he said that the numbers come only from the initial charge against the shooter. Not from the end result of the investigation/trial.
    http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=9141

    So the plausible answer for the increase in numbers come from those people who would have been charged for murder then found not guilty because of the reason of self defense. (In the old system they would NOT have counted toward the official numbers of self defense shooters.) Under the new system they are never charged with the murder and there numbers DO count toward the self defense tally.



    BTW I sent my Congresswoman an email about this amendment.
    Last edited by twoskinsonemanns; 05-08-2012 at 08:05 PM.

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    The Communist party is alive and well in the United States today! They call themselves DEMOCRATS!

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backpacker Joe View Post
    The Communist party is alive and well in the United States today! They call themselves DEMOCRATS!
    That bit of bathos is on a par with calling GOP repugnicans fascists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    That bit of bathos is on a par with calling GOP repugnicans fascists.
    Why encourage the SPAMMER?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    "House Democrats said Tuesday they will offer an amendment to push to overturn stand-your-ground self-defense laws in states like Florida."

    Unconstitutional. State's territory, not the Feds. Of course that hasn't stopped Jacksonville's supreme allied commanding prosecutor general from violating the Constitution and illegally charging Zimmerman...

    This brings me to my theory of political parties: Those who know the Constitution tend towards Republicanism. Those who don't tend towards Democracy.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    "House Democrats said Tuesday they will offer an amendment to push to overturn stand-your-ground self-defense laws in states like Florida."

    Unconstitutional. State's territory, not the Feds. Of course that hasn't stopped Jacksonville's supreme allied commanding prosecutor general from violating the Constitution and illegally charging Zimmerman...

    This brings me to my theory of political parties: Those who know the Constitution tend towards Republicanism. Those who don't tend towards Democracy.
    I would say there's far more to it than just that. I've had people who know the Constitution but don't fully agree with it and thus lean towards Democracy. Or those that don't know it but hate having the gov all up in their life and thus lean towards Republican.

    If anything I would say that the uninformed are more likely to lean towards whatever party promises them things that seem to help them regardless of what the real costs are. And currently that would be towards the democracy/democrat side, but don't forget that a lot of these programs that the democrats tout were started by the Republican side.

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    Actually, the main reason for the jump in SD-related shootings in Florida is that the so-called SYG law does not exclude shootings by people involved at the time in unlawful activity; in fact, it includes them. Previously, a drug dealer who shot and killed a would-be robber was rarely, if ever, considered to be acting in lawful self-defense, and was typically charged with at least second-degree murder. True, as Aknazer pointed out, many were either acquitted or had the charges dropped or reduced to something that did not apply to the statistic.
    Another major factor is simply the increasing number of people arming themselves and exercising responsibility for their own safety and security. The law was enacted in Florida in 2005. Quite a few people have armed up since then, with the largest surge occuring in the years since mid-2008. This part is a no-brainer, at least, to those of us who actually use brains.
    Last edited by MedWheeler; 05-21-2012 at 06:46 AM.

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    And let's not forget the crappy economy we are face with. Robberies have gone way up in my neighborhood as I am sure they have in Florida also. More BG more SD shootings! Simple 2+2 no?

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    "House Democrats said Tuesday they will offer an amendment to push to overturn stand-your-ground self-defense laws in states like Florida."

    Unconstitutional. State's territory, not the Feds. Of course that hasn't stopped Jacksonville's supreme allied commanding prosecutor general from violating the Constitution and illegally charging Zimmerman...

    This brings me to my theory of political parties: Those who know the Constitution tend towards Republicanism. Those who don't tend towards Democracy.
    The republicans are just as bad about burning the constitution as are the democrats. They just burn different parts. Two sides of the coin and all that.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    "Federal money shouldn't be spent supporting states with laws that endanger their own people,"
    said Reps. Raul Grijalva of Arizona and Keith Ellison of Minnesota...
    I agree!!
    Any state that restricts the right of its citizens to lawful, armed self-defense shouldn't get a dime of their stolen tax money back.
    ::cough Illinois cough::

    It's clear from decades of stats from across the country that places where it's easier for a citizen to act in self-defense are safer for EVERYONE than places where it's hard for good people to protect themselves.

    So only states with Constitutional Carry would get any money from fedgov.

    I'm pretty sure that's not what those 2 Dems had in mind...
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ::cough Illinois cough::
    Hey! Are you ok? Sounds like you have an Obama stuck in your throat...

    It's clear from decades of stats from across the country that places where it's easier for a citizen to act in self-defense are safer for EVERYONE than places where it's hard for good people to protect themselves.

    So only states with Constitutional Carry would get any money from fedgov.
    I had a dream like that, once. Mere seconds before a mortar round went off about 50 feet from our tent.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    I just love how legislation is being enacted based on a case which has not even been completed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
    I just love how legislation is being enacted based on a case which has not even been completed.
    It has already been completed in the eyes of the media/public, no?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyBoy276 View Post
    It has already been completed in the eyes of the media/public, no?
    Media, yes. Public, no.

    Make that socialist-controlled media who feels we need to be protected from ourselves, yes. Rational, intelligent, and self-sufficient public who takes reasonable precautions to protect themselves, no.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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