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Thread: Florida permit fees reduced, does that change anything?

  1. #1
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    Florida permit fees reduced, does that change anything?

    As seen on the NRA-ILA website.
    http://www.nraila.org/legislation/st...-into-law.aspx

    House Bill 5601 would reduce the fee for a new concealed carry weapons license application from $85 to $70 for a seven-year license and would reduce the fee for a renewal of a concealed carry weapons license from $70 to $60 for a seven-year license. HB 5601 passed in the state Senate by a 31 to 6 vote and passed in the state House by a 98 to 15 vote. This bill was signed into law by Governor Rick Scott on April 20. This bill will take effect July 1, 2012.
    I know that the Florida permit is, or at least was, popular among Iowans but a lot of things have changed in just the last two years. Most notable is the Iowa shall issue law. Iowa's permit is now valid in more states, I can recall Georgia and Wisconsin as recent examples. We also saw changes in the issuance policies for non-resident permits from other states, both good (Arizona for example) and bad (Utah).

    What I'm wondering is if this reduction of the price in Florida's permit is going to have any real effect on whether Iowans will renew or obtain new permits from that state. So I pose a few questions to you. Do you have a Florida permit? If you do then do you plan to renew it? Does this change in fees charged make a difference in your decision? Would you encourage others to get a Florida permit?

    Personally I made the decision some time ago to allow my Florida and Utah permits to expire. I'm not happy with the policy changes Utah has made to get a non-resident permit and so I'll let that expire as a matter of principle. The Florida permit is just too expensive for what I get out of it even with the price reduction but I might have a change of heart when the expiration date comes closer. I've realized that I don't travel as much as I used to and so a permit to carry outside of Iowa does not mean as much to me as it used to. I've also come to better understand the laws on carrying inside my vehicle and so I feel more comfortable when traveling in states that do not recognize Iowa's permit.

    (Side note: When I pasted that segment of text from the NRA-ILA web page I noticed the links inside the text followed it. I was just floored. I don't know if that is a new feature of my browser or of this forum but I like it.)

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    Don't get a FL permit, unless you live in FL.

    I don't have a non resident permit yet, but plan on taking the necessary courses to get my UT permit. AZ's permit is basically a pay to play deal if you already have your Iowa permit. All things considered AZ and FL permits give you access to the same states with very little difference. Arizona gives you Nevada, Florida gives you Washington(and now NM since they decided to pull their recent shenanigans). The rest are the same(difference in bold below):

    Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming

    Unless you plan on traveling to Washington or New Mexico, the FL permit is just a waste of time and money.

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    (b) A nonrefundable license fee not to exceed $70 [$85], if
    he or she has not previously been issued a statewide license, or
    a nonrefundable license fee not to exceed $60 [$70] for renewal of
    a statewide license. Costs for processing the set of
    fingerprints as required in paragraph (c) shall be borne by the
    "Not to exceed." FL currently charges $75 and $65....so while the cost will go down it will only be $5. Plus don't forget the $42 fingerprint process fee is still there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    I don't have a non resident permit yet, but plan on taking the necessary courses to get my UT permit. AZ's permit is basically a pay to play deal if you already have your Iowa permit. All things considered AZ and FL permits give you access to the same states with very little difference. Arizona gives you Nevada, Florida gives you Washington(and now NM since they decided to pull their recent shenanigans). The rest are the same(difference in bold below):

    Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming

    Unless you plan on traveling to Washington or New Mexico, the FL permit is just a waste of time and money.
    AZ does cover NM....even after last weeks debacle.
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 05-08-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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    It will have minimal impact on Iowans. For the VAST majority of permit holders, $15 isn't what decides which non-Iowa permits to obtain -- rather, which states honor a permit, and which states they travel in, is the deciding factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    It will have minimal impact on Iowans. For the VAST majority of permit holders, $15 isn't what decides which non-Iowa permits to obtain -- rather, which states honor a permit, and which states they travel in, is the deciding factor.
    Well, yes and no. There are numerous states that do not issue permits to non-residents and so getting a permit from the states an Iowan would visit is an impossibility. There are states that don't recognize the Iowa permit to carry weapons but will recognize a dozen permits from other states if issued to an Iowan.

    For example take New Mexico and Kansas. They don't recognize an Iowa permit but they will recognize a non-resident permit from Florida, Arizona, Texas, or North Dakota (and maybe more). It that situation which permit would an Iowan obtain? In this situation cost becomes a factor. The $15 reduction in fees just might be enough to keep people from getting a permit from another state.

    I tried to figure out the relative costs of the different permit options but I became quickly overwhelmed in all the fees, materials, and training costs each license requires. I doubt the price reduction makes the Florida permit cheaper than other popular out of state permits for Iowans but it might be enough to keep people that already have a Florida permit from abandoning it for an alternative and continue to pay the renewal fees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    "Not to exceed." FL currently charges $75 and $65....so while the cost will go down it will only be $5. Plus don't forget the $42 fingerprint process fee is still there.
    The fingerprint fee only applies to new applicants. Renewing a permit does not require new fingerprints. This makes renewal fees on par with a new permit from Utah or Arizona.


    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    AZ does cover NM....even after last weeks debacle.
    Recent changes in Arizona law on the issuance of non-residence permits has made it very attractive for Iowans. I have to wonder if the reduction in fees is in response to competition from Arizona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IA_farmboy View Post
    The fingerprint fee only applies to new applicants. Renewing a permit does not require new fingerprints. This makes renewal fees on par with a new permit from Utah or Arizona.
    .

    Fingerprints are required for FL non-resident renewal.

    FL Fees $65+$42=$107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Fingerprints are required for FL non-resident renewal.

    FL Fees $65+$42=$107

    My bad. I was misinformed. This means that the Florida permit is still more expensive than just about every other permit out there. Perhaps my posing of these questions is premature as the new schedule of fees has not yet come into effect. It will take some time to see what the actual prices will be since as pointed out before the law sets the maximum fees and not the actual fees.

    With the price of the Florida permit so high and the changes in laws in the various states in things like recognition policies and policies on non-resident issue my original question still stands, how many iowans will continue to renew their Florida permit to carry?

    I suspect that the Florida permit will become less popular with Iowans and all non-residents of Florida. The competition has increased from other states by offering a cheaper equivalent product and more states are enacting laws that reduce the need for a non-resident permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988
    Arizona gives you Nevada, Florida gives you Washington(and now NM since they decided to pull their recent shenanigans). The rest are the same(difference in bold below):

    Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming
    Actually, the latest update on the WI DOJ site (DEC) says that WI doesn't recognize FL.
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...eciprocity.asp

    I believe it's a p---ing match about background checks, since IIRC FL "only" does an FBI check.
    DOJ determined that a background check is comparable to Wisconsinís only if it includes both a criminal history record search and a NICS search. It is necessary to require inclusion of NICS because that database includes some data related to potential disqualifying conditions that is not included in other national background check databases
    Basically, DOJ is doing whatever it can to exclude as many people as possible, for as long as possible.
    Or maybe they're worried about not getting their pound of flesh from the snowbirds who can get & use a FL resident permit while maintaining a home here.

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    I don't recommend FL to students anymore. The value just isn't there for an Iowan. Before Shall Issue it was to a point to pick up Kansas and Florida as that was the only way you could carry there since Iowa didn't recognize FL so FL wouldn't recognize Iowa. I think the best bang for someone's buck is IA, UT, & AZ. I know that you have an issue with Utah farmboy but it is still a widely recognized permit and the extra requirement is not that big of a deal in my opinion. It stinks that is for sure but you make do and it is ok. Even with it being a seven year permit at the costs that are involved it is an expensive permit and not worth the expense in my opinion.

    Iowa 5 year permit
    New - $50
    Renewal - $25

    Utah 5 year permit
    New - $51
    Renewal - $15

    Arizona 5 year permit
    New - $60
    Renewal - $40

    Florida 7 year permit
    New - $117
    Renewal - $107

    Yes someone that wanted the most coverage is going to have to pay for it in a Utah course and getting three permits and that starting off can be expensive. Permit fees alone are $161 but an Iowan is going to have almost that same cost in Florida and Iowa alone. FL+IA = $157. Yes it is cheaper a little bit than the IA, UT, AZ but doesn't give you as much coverage and renewing is more expensive. Renewals for IA, UT, AZ = $80. Renewal for IA+FL= $132.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Actually, the latest update on the WI DOJ site (DEC) says that WI doesn't recognize FL.
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...eciprocity.asp

    I believe it's a p---ing match about background checks, since IIRC FL "only" does an FBI check.

    Basically, DOJ is doing whatever it can to exclude as many people as possible, for as long as possible.
    Or maybe they're worried about not getting their pound of flesh from the snowbirds who can get & use a FL resident permit while maintaining a home here.
    MKEgal - darkshadow was talking about if someone had an Iowa permit. WI recognizes IA's permit.

    It is all WI DOJ there as you said they are trying to flex muscle. Its really not FL's fault they have their system and all that is required for them to recognize another state is that the other state recognizes them. Hopefully more states can get to the point of just saying that they recognize all other permits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bforn View Post
    I think the best bang for someone's buck is IA, UT, & AZ..
    I wanted to try for that....IA won't let me...

    So I got PA, UT and AZ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    I wanted to try for that....IA won't let me...

    So I got PA, UT and AZ.
    It seems that many don't realize, or have forgotten, that Iowa's shall issue law on permits to carry weapons only applies to resident non-professional permits. Non-resident and professional (valid only while on the job) permits are still may issue. Because non-resident permits are processed by the state police instead of a county sheriff there is less politics involved in the issuance and therefore the criteria that is required to get a non-resident permit is relatively standardized and does not shift greatly with the election cycle.

    This brings up another point that is worthy of discussion for those visiting Iowa. Since the Iowa non-resident permit is so difficult to obtain, and Iowa recognizes every other state's permit, which permit is preferred by non-residents visiting Iowa? Does the reduction of the fees for a Florida permit change anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IA_farmboy View Post
    It seems that many don't realize, or have forgotten, that Iowa's shall issue law on permits to carry weapons only applies to resident non-professional permits. Non-resident and professional (valid only while on the job) permits are still may issue. Because non-resident permits are processed by the state police instead of a county sheriff there is less politics involved in the issuance and therefore the criteria that is required to get a non-resident permit is relatively standardized and does not shift greatly with the election cycle.

    This brings up another point that is worthy of discussion for those visiting Iowa. Since the Iowa non-resident permit is so difficult to obtain, and Iowa recognizes every other state's permit, which permit is preferred by non-residents visiting Iowa? Does the reduction of the fees for a Florida permit change anything?

    It was my understanding that IA would only issue Professional permits to non-residents?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    It was my understanding that IA would only issue Professional permits to non-residents?
    That is generally true but the law is more complicated than that. I'm going from memory here so I might be completely wrong here. Verify what I'm typing here before acting.

    When the shall issue law was being debated a concession was made to raise the minimum age of the non-professional permit applicants to 21 years while keeping the minimum age for professional permits at 18 years. Because the professional permit is still may issue and is more restrictive than the non-professional permit the only people that would even want one would be residents under 21 years of age. Those that could even get one would be those capable of convincing a sheriff that having such a permit is a professional necessity.

    There's yet another wrinkle in this since there is another law that requires that a person under the age of 21 years must be supervised by a responsible person that is over the age of 21 years to possess a handgun. The permit is to carry weapons not to carry handguns. So a person that is 20 years old would need a permit to legally carry certain items defined as weapons in certain areas defined by law.

    So, while it is possible for a resident to get a professional permit to carry the laws on the issuance of the permits, and the restrictions on what is allowed by law, are so convoluted that few people even bother to apply for the permit.

    When it comes to the non-resident permit to carry the state police has taken a very interesting interpretation of the law. In order to get a non-professional permit one would have to convince the powers that be that such a permit is some sort of necessity. It is my understanding that the state police believes the only necessity for a permit is that it is required for their employment. In this case the state police would not issue a non-professional permit to someone that needs it for their job but they would issue a professional permit.

    I wonder if there is a way to verify this but I have come to understand that the state police will not issue a non-resident non-professional permit. This is generally a non-issue since by Iowa law they are required to recognize any permit to carry issued by any other state, territory, district, or federal authority.

    So, in law there are four types of permits that are allowed under Iowa law. These permits fall under the four combinations possible with resident/non-resident and professional/non-professional. In practice there are really only two types issued with any regularity, resident non-professional and non-resident professional.

    I suspect the non-resident permits of any kind are rarely issued and are only sought by people that wish to avoid any possible issues with the so called "gun free" school zones act and misinformed LEOs in the state.

    This is all kinds of nonsense since I believe that any adult that is not in prison or a mental hospital should be able to lawfully carry any weapon they see fit to use for their self defense. Getting an amendment to the state constitution to do just that is a discussion for another thread.

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    There is no provision for a non-resident nonprofessional permit any longer. It used to be that one could apply for a non-resident permit with the commissioner of public safety, but they were almost never approved. That is no longer an option. The only way a non-resident could get a permit in Iowa would be a professional permit which as you said is not worth the effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bforn View Post
    There is no provision for a non-resident nonprofessional permit any longer. It used to be that one could apply for a non-resident permit with the commissioner of public safety, but they were almost never approved. That is no longer an option. The only way a non-resident could get a permit in Iowa would be a professional permit which as you said is not worth the effort.
    That's the way i remember it. I recall getting a little "upset" over on the IFC forum because I really wanted the IA permit for when I visited family in Leon.
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 05-15-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bforn View Post
    There is no provision for a non-resident nonprofessional permit any longer. It used to be that one could apply for a non-resident permit with the commissioner of public safety, but they were almost never approved. That is no longer an option. The only way a non-resident could get a permit in Iowa would be a professional permit which as you said is not worth the effort.
    The Iowa code website is difficult to search and even more difficult to link to but I did find the following link that seems both official and current.
    https://www.legis.iowa.gov/DOCS/ACO/...hapter.724.pdf

    This part of Iowa code would seem to show you are correct.
    724.11 Issuance of permit to carry weapons.
    1. Applications for permits to carry weapons shall be made to the sheriff of the county in which the applicant resides. Applications for professional permits to carry weapons for persons who are nonresidents of the state, or whose need to go armed arises out of employment by the state, shall be made to the commissioner of public safety. In either case, the sheriff or commissioner, before issuing the permit, shall determine that the requirements of sections 724.6 to 724.10 have been satisfied. However, for renewal of a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9, subsection 1, shall apply or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another stateís department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. Such training or qualification must occur within the twelve-month period prior to the expiration of the applicantís current permit.
    This section does not dictate the means by which a person could apply for a non-resident non-professional permit. I'm not sure if this means that the commissioner is just not required to issue these permits or that the commissioner is prevented from issuing the permits.

    No matter how you slice it the truth is that the state just does not issue the permits. That was true then, before the law changed, and it's still true now.

    Non-residents that want to carry in Iowa are likely to gravitate to their home state for a permit or to Arizona. Arizona has the lowest fees of the shall issue mail order permits and, with the wide variety of means by which one can meet their training requirements, they'll almost certainly have the lowest total costs to obtain a permit recognized in Iowa.

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