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Thread: CCDW......confused as hell now!!!!

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    CCDW......confused as hell now!!!!

    I just took a CCDW class Sunday and I'm more confused than ever. Some of the things that confuss me are for one the instrutor said that if a LEO sees a buldge under my shirt....lets say while I am shopping at Wal Mart, that I HAVE to give him ALL of my id if he request it. I find one KRS that states you can have a firearm on school property only during pick up and drop off, but find another that states you can have a firearm in your vehicle as long as it stays in your vehicle. Plus I'm confused about what is a "threat". I know they covered physical force vs deadly physical force, and if you have a gun shoved in your face with the guy saying that he's going to kill you then you are ok to use deadly force. But what about when a 6'9" guy that weights 300lbs and has muscles on top of muscles starts beating the hell out of you because you look like some guy that he hates??? Of course if a pissed off 95 year old man walks up to me and starts cussing me and starts punching me, I would walk ASAP to save myself the embarassment of the situation, but how about a large fellow that you know could beat you to death and you cant retreat?? I have a few more questions but for the sake of not making this thread a mile long I will ask my other questions later...And I know that while class was going on would have been a good time to ask these questions but I didnt want to be "that guy"......you know, that A hole that wouldnt shut up and made class last 3 hours longer...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I just took a CCDW class Sunday and I'm more confused than ever. Some of the things that confuss me are for one the instrutor said that if a LEO sees a buldge under my shirt....lets say while I am shopping at Wal Mart, that I HAVE to give him ALL of my id if he request it. I find one KRS that states you can have a firearm on school property only during pick up and drop off, but find another that states you can have a firearm in your vehicle as long as it stays in your vehicle. Plus I'm confused about what is a "threat". I know they covered physical force vs deadly physical force, and if you have a gun shoved in your face with the guy saying that he's going to kill you then you are ok to use deadly force. But what about when a 6'9" guy that weights 300lbs and has muscles on top of muscles starts beating the hell out of you because you look like some guy that he hates??? Of course if a pissed off 95 year old man walks up to me and starts cussing me and starts punching me, I would walk ASAP to save myself the embarassment of the situation, but how about a large fellow that you know could beat you to death and you cant retreat?? I have a few more questions but for the sake of not making this thread a mile long I will ask my other questions later...And I know that while class was going on would have been a good time to ask these questions but I didnt want to be "that guy"......you know, that A hole that wouldnt shut up and made class last 3 hours longer...
    So what is your question(s)?

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    They are wrong. You never have to give up your D.L. Unless your driving. As for a cop seeing a bulge, that bulge could be anything, and they do not have RAS just because your shirt is puffed out.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    After you get your CCDW, try and find a special holster, and carry a compact 9mm in the crotch of your pants. That way no one will give you lip or anything for having such a bulge... Though you may find some attention of certain people~ hehe ... I want a crotch holster now! Glockster, Find or build me one

    the way I, personally, interprit the stand your ground laws, is basically this; If I am minding my own business, and someone who is larger and stronger than me, deliberately approaches me, no matter where I am, I'm going to take heed, and keep my draw hand at my side, ready at any time. Now, if this person starts yelling and threatening me, saying derogatory words, or terrorist threatening stuff, my hand is going to release the retention strap of my sidearm as loudly as possible, and lazily rest on the handle of my sidearm, within view of this threatening fellow. All the while I'd be trying to defuse the situation, and put distance between us. The moment this person makes a physical move against me, by raising a fist, or takes a swing at me, I'm going to make clear "Sir, stand down and move away".

    That's covering the leading up to part of what I personally would do.

    Now, if this large, strong person was to somehow, some way catch me off guard, and jump me, hitting me. I'm going to take it as a threat against my life, because I am far weaker than this person, I am no match for them, I don't even know how to fight back with my fists. My sidearm will immediately be drawn and I'm going to order this guy to stop, back away, and get flat on the ground.

    If he continues, I will be forced to open fire to preserve and protect my life and limb from further damage. At which time, I will be on the phone to 911, sidearm holstered, and rendering first aid the best I can to the offender.

    I'm sure that's not the best course of action for you, or anyone else, and I'm probably wrong in saying how I would act; But, I also record audio whenever I'm out OC'ing, and hopefully when put on trial for it, I have friends and witnesses who can attest to me being inferior to the offender in a psychical confrontation. And hope to hell the Judge/Jury see's me in the right, a gay, weak, OC'er defending himself from someone who could easily kill him with their fists.
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Like I said, the KRS over school property...is it only pick up and drop off of is it leave it in your car??? As as Drake stated, I know general fighting isnt grounds for deadly force but what if you would suffer great harm or death from an unlawfull attack??? Just do what you feel is right and IF you go to trial hope the judge/jury rules your actions were justified????
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Here is a question from the book...

    Which of the following would make the use of deadly force justifiable in responce to the actions of another?
    A. You believe you may be killed
    B. You believe you may suffer serious physical injury
    C. You believe you may be raped.
    D. You believe you may be struck in the face
    E. None of the above

    Answer. A,B and C

    Now here is my question. A and C seem pretty obvious, but B and D could be one in the same. If I feel I am about to be struck in the face by a person of about the same size and strenth as me I can see why this wouldnt be justified...BUT WHAT IF that person was some drugged up UFC fighter type of person and I feared that a punch to the face from them would cause serious injury (broken face bones, screwed up eye, internal head bleed, loss of consciousness that would lead me to be unable to even attempt to fight back, dental damage, mulitple surgeries..etc etc etc... Plus right now I have a slipped disc in my back that makes it hard to put on my shoes at times.. I doubt I could even take a smaller man right now.. Do you see where some of my confusion is coming from?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Here is a question from the book...

    Which of the following would make the use of deadly force justifiable in responce to the actions of another?
    A. You believe you may be killed
    B. You believe you may suffer serious physical injury
    C. You believe you may be raped.
    D. You believe you may be struck in the face
    E. None of the above

    Answer. A,B and C

    Now here is my question. A and C seem pretty obvious, but B and D could be one in the same. If I feel I am about to be struck in the face by a person of about the same size and strenth as me I can see why this wouldnt be justified...BUT WHAT IF that person was some drugged up UFC fighter type of person and I feared that a punch to the face from them would cause serious injury (broken face bones, screwed up eye, internal head bleed, loss of consciousness that would lead me to be unable to even attempt to fight back, dental damage, mulitple surgeries..etc etc etc... Plus right now I have a slipped disc in my back that makes it hard to put on my shoes at times.. I doubt I could even take a smaller man right now.. Do you see where some of my confusion is coming from?
    The correct answers under the law would be A,B, and C. The standard someone faces in self-defense situations is the reasonableness of ones belief. Could a reasonable person believe that they could be seriously injured, killed, kidnapped, or raped if....John Doe does....whatever..... If yes then it's justified, if not, then its a criminal act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    They are wrong. You never have to give up your D.L. Unless your driving. As for a cop seeing a bulge, that bulge could be anything, and they do not have RAS just because your shirt is puffed out.
    KyGlockster, you are correct, you never have to show a OL when asked, except when driving. You would have to identify yourself if RAS exist. RAS can be achieved with the officer experience and training in recognizing a concealed weapon. There is case law directly on point. If the officer can effectively communicate the reason, such as a bulge that appeared to be the outline of the weapon, and in my training and experience that would indicate a concealed handgun, then he would have RAS needed for the stop.

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    School Property Carry

    527.070 Unlawful possession of a weapon on school property -- Posting of sign -- Exemptions.

    (3) The provisions of this section prohibiting the unlawful possession of a weapon on school property shall not apply to:

    (a) An adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a vehicle operated by the adult and is not removed from the vehicle, except for a purpose permitted herein, or brandished by the adult, or by any other person acting with expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property;
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyh9900 View Post
    The correct answers under the law would be A,B, and C. The standard someone faces in self-defense situations is the reasonableness of ones belief. Could a reasonable person believe that they could be seriously injured, killed, kidnapped, or raped if....John Doe does....whatever..... If yes then it's justified, if not, then its a criminal act.
    So what you're saying is..........................................if a person ever needed to use deady force he was afraid of A,B or C and you should be ok?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    KyGlockster, you are correct, you never have to show a OL when asked, except when driving. You would have to identify yourself if RAS exist. RAS can be achieved with the officer experience and training in recognizing a concealed weapon. There is case law directly on point. If the officer can effectively communicate the reason, such as a bulge that appeared to be the outline of the weapon, and in my training and experience that would indicate a concealed handgun, then he would have RAS needed for the stop.

    So if I am at wal mart buying shoes and a LEO is standing next to me buying shoes, and he notices a bulge under my shirt or my shirt gets pulled up and he catches a glimpse of my gun without me knowing it, that would be RAS? Even though I am not commiting a crime, have commited or am about to?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    I have "bulges" , Large bulges ..

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    I don't care if the guy a 5 foot nothing and weighs 100lbs soaking wet, he comes up and clocks me upside the head, I'll shoot to stop him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    So if I am at wal mart buying shoes and a LEO is standing next to me buying shoes, and he notices a bulge under my shirt or my shirt gets pulled up and he catches a glimpse of my gun without me knowing it, that would be RAS? Even though I am not commiting a crime, have commited or am about to?
    I think you would be required to show your CCDW if the officer is able to get a glimpse of your firearm and requests to see some ID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    I think you would be required to show your CCDW if the officer is able to get a glimpse of your firearm and requests to see some ID.
    Correct. State law says you have to produce your CDWL if you are conceal carrying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    So what you're saying is..........................................if a person ever needed to use deady force he was afraid of A,B or C and you should be ok?
    If he/she reasonably believed that one of those was going to happen if he didn't use force, yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    So if I am at wal mart buying shoes and a LEO is standing next to me buying shoes, and he notices a bulge under my shirt or my shirt gets pulled up and he catches a glimpse of my gun without me knowing it, that would be RAS? Even though I am not commiting a crime, have commited or am about to?
    Carrying a concealed deadly weapon is a crime in the state of Kentucky(having a ccdw grants you a exemption). So I don't think it would be a stretch for an officer to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyh9900 View Post
    Carrying a concealed deadly weapon is a crime in the state of Kentucky(having a ccdw grants you a exemption). So I don't think it would be a stretch for an officer to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed.
    There you go! That is correct. You would only have to provide your CDWL. If you did not have a CDWL, with RAS, you would have to give your name, address, or date of birth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Correct. State law says you have to produce your CDWL if you are conceal carrying.
    You have to produce your cdwl if "asked" by a law enforcement officer. Wouldn't want anyone getting confused and think Ky is a state where you must immediately inform an officer your ccw.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 05-09-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    You have to produce your cdwl if "asked" by a law enforcement officer. Wouldn't want anyone getting confused and think Ky is a state where you must immediately inform an officer your ccw.
    There is no duty to notify. You can extend that courtesy if you choose or not. Remember if your stopped by the police in a vehicle registered to you, he knows the owner of that vehicle has a concealed carry permit before he ever gets out of his vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyh9900 View Post
    There is no duty to notify. You can extend that courtesy if you choose or not. Remember if your stopped by the police in a vehicle registered to you, he knows the owner of that vehicle has a concealed carry permit before he ever gets out of his vehicle.
    Does it just come up with the vehicle license plate or does he have to request that information on the owner?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Does it just come up with the vehicle license plate or does he have to request that information on the owner?
    The registered owner(s) social security #'s are attached to the license plate. Whenever a license plate is ran through LINK/NCIC is automatically runs the SSN which returns the operators license information, wanted status, and CCDW status with the registration information. So anytime you run a tag, you get the vehicle info and the owner info whether you need it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    I don't care if the guy a 5 foot nothing and weighs 100lbs soaking wet, he comes up and clocks me upside the head, I'll shoot to stop him.
    Your actions will be evaluated based on would a reasonable person, put in the same situation, be in fear of losing their life or serious physical harm. Not just physical harm, but serious physical harm.

    If it is viewed that a reasonable person would have been in fear of losing their life or serious physical harm, in that same situation then you are good to go. If not, then that might just be a problem.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    I think you would be required to show your CCDW if the officer is able to get a glimpse of your firearm and requests to see some ID.
    So I would only have to show my CCDW and not my OL? If thats the way the law reads I can live with that but just because he sees a bulge doesnt mean I am commiting a crime. I understand that CC is illegal in KY and the CCDW is an exemption to that law, but what would keep that LEO from saying "I see you're wearing brand new shoes and I need your ID just in case you just stole them" And this of course is him aproaching me out of the blue for no reason. Plus if he had true RAS then you would be required to show all ID, not just some of it. Is there a such thing if the LEO said "yeah, I have a little RAS so I need your papers"?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    So I would only have to show my CCDW and not my OL? If thats the way the law reads I can live with that but just because he sees a bulge doesnt mean I am commiting a crime. I understand that CC is illegal in KY and the CCDW is an exemption to that law, but what would keep that LEO from saying "I see you're wearing brand new shoes and I need your ID just in case you just stole them" And this of course is him aproaching me out of the blue for no reason. Plus if he had true RAS then you would be required to show all ID, not just some of it. Is there a such thing if the LEO said "yeah, I have a little RAS so I need your papers"?
    It is not illegal to wear new shoes. It is illegal to carry a CCDW without the proper license.

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