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Thread: Challenge to the "lesser of two evils" crowd

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Challenge to the "lesser of two evils" crowd

    You're going to vote for your party's nominee no matter what. We're all very much aware of that.

    So, if you're in the Republican camp, why not vote for Ron Paul in your state primary or caucus, if it's still coming up? What's the possible down-side? This isn't the Presidential vote in November, it's the party nomination. You're already convinced that Romney is the inevitable nominee and all you care about is voting against Obama. So why not vote for Ron Paul for the nomination? What could you possibly have to lose?

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    Unless you're like me and have NO party loyalty.

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    While you are to be commended for trying to drum up votes for your candidate. Romney is the inevitable Republican candidate. So let me ask you this. When it is between Obama and Romney, will you be voting for Romney or just staying home?
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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    When it is between Obama and Romney
    I need to de-stress, so I'm going to keep this short and not elevate my blood-pressure by getting angry.

    You are necessarily implying an unambiguous belief: that the next Presidential election will ever be between Obama and Romney. Because literally anyone can be voted for in the Presidential election, you are necessarily indicating that you rule out everyone but these two as not even worth mentioning or considering, that in effect only these two are, practically speaking, "in" the election, hence your language of "between Obama and Romney". It is, then, impossible for you to argue against the necessary conclusion of this way of thinking: that only the eventual winner is "in" the election. There is no getting around this. You can't claim that I know what you mean, because I do know what you mean, and what you mean is that the winner is the "only" candidate, whether you know what you mean or not.

    You can't have it both ways. Either this is an election among all candidates, or it's not. If you get to presume, as if you are some oracle, that you know who the nominee of each party will be, then Beretta gets to presume that she knows Obama will win, and some Republican fool gets to presume that he knows Romney will win, and both are just as right as you.

    The fundamental failure of thought that underlies the lesser-of-two-evils mentality is the willful adherence to this impossible paradox: that the "real" candidate pool can be prognosticated, but the winner cannot. Because such people so intractably cleave to this senseless drivel, they have enabled the two predominant parties in this country to construct legal mandates that reinforce this thinking, even while this thinking remains completely ridiculous.

    Why am I arguing on the internet? You can't cure stupid. I guess that's why I'm still arguing on the internet.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    While you are to be commended for trying to drum up votes for your candidate. Romney is the inevitable Republican candidate. So let me ask you this. When it is between Obama and Romney, will you be voting for Romney or just staying home?
    Would it matter? Some say a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama. I think a vote for Romney is a vote Obama-like ideas. It is six of one, half a dozen of the other. Like I said on a different tread, I would MUCH rather Obama win this election and start fixing things next that continue this game that our leaders have us play.

    It is complete madness what they have most voters to believe. Right now they're saying you only have TWO men of similar views that you can elect to president. That is not the way it was designed or the way it should be.

    Honor and dignity has largely left our country, if not people would be outraged about what happens every election.

    Vote for who you think best serves you and your views, not who you think serves your view worse the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Constitution Party
    The Free Man's Constitutional Party here.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Would it matter? Some say a vote for Paul is a vote for Obama. I think a vote for Romney is a vote Obama-like ideas. It is six of one, half a dozen of the other. Like I said on a different tread, I would MUCH rather Obama win this election and start fixing things next that continue this game that our leaders have us play.

    It is complete madness what they have most voters to believe. Right now they're saying you only have TWO men of similar views that you can elect to president. That is not the way it was designed or the way it should be.

    Honor and dignity has largely left our country, if not people would be outraged about what happens every election.

    Vote for who you think best serves you and your views, not who you think serves your view worse the least.
    Some also say that a vote for Paul is a vote for Romney. That's what democrats are going to say, and republicans are going to say what you said. It's ridiculous.

    I say a vote for Paul is a vote for Paul and that's who I'll be voting for.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    While some of the above replies made for an interesting read, a lot has been assumed. I never said who the candidate of my choice was. It wasn't Romney. But I am a realist. Even though I like a lot of Ron Paul's ideas, he doesn't "appear" to have a chance in Hell. Yes honor should be on the forefront of our vote. But this is not a perfect world and it's not a perfect system. One of the things I didn't like about Ron Paul was, like some of his followers, he lives in a dream world. I know that isn't a popular thing to say, but he thinks if you just ignore terrorist, they'll just go away. Wrong! And look at how people get their panties in a bunch over anything negative said about him. You can pretend all you want. It "apparently" is going to be Romney and Obama. (just looking at the numbers) So back to my question. I "assume" I already know the answer. Damn, and I was gonna compliment you on the way you creatively used the parentheses in your user name too. I intend to not waste my vote. I bet you haven't been this upset since Ross Perot was president. Oh wait, no he wasn't. Wow, R.P. and R.P. Has anybody seen them both in the same place at the same time?
    Last edited by hjmoosejaw; 05-11-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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    May pragmatism prevail

    Ross Perot siphoned off enough conservative votes to elect Bill Clinton.

    Those who don't learn from history repeat history's mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    SNIP

    Even though I like a lot of Ron Paul's ideas, he doesn't "appear" to have a chance in Hell.
    Why should this be relevant to someone trying to chose a candidate? Appearances are controlled by the media. Are you letting them do your thinking for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    Yes honor should be on the forefront of our vote. But this is not a perfect world and it's not a perfect system.
    These two things have nothing to do with each other. It's poor rationalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    One of the things I didn't like about Ron Paul was, like some of his followers, he lives in a dream world. I know that isn't a popular thing to say, but he thinks if you just ignore terrorist, they'll just go away. Wrong! And look at how people get their panties in a bunch over anything negative said about him. You can pretend all you want. It "apparently" is going to be Romney and Obama. (just looking at the numbers) So back to my question. I "assume" I already know the answer. Damn, and I was gonna compliment you on the way you creatively used the parentheses in your user name too. I intend to not waste my vote. I bet you haven't been this upset since Ross Perot was president. Oh wait, no he wasn't. Wow, R.P. and R.P. Has anybody seen them both in the same place at the same time?
    What's a wasted vote? I have trouble getting a definition for this.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-11-2012 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6-shooter View Post
    Ross Perot siphoned off enough conservative votes to elect Bill Clinton.

    Those who don't learn from history repeat history's mistakes.
    I would definitely recommend not voting for Ross Perot this election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    One of the things I didn't like about Ron Paul was, like some of his followers, he lives in a dream world. I know that isn't a popular thing to say, but he thinks if you just ignore terrorist, they'll just go away. Wrong!
    Please post a single instance of Ron Paul saying we should "ignore terrorist."

    He has said that we should pull back from foreign engagements to better protect our borders, and that we should stop doing the things that create terrorism.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Why should this be relevant to someone trying to chose a candidate? Appearances are controlled by the media. Are you letting them do your thinking for you?



    These two things have nothing to do with each other. It's poor rationalization.



    What's a wasted vote? I have trouble getting a definition for this.

    1) I do my own thinking. I've heard Ron Paul speak. 2) You can hold to your fundamental beliefs. That's great, but when the lights are turned off at the polls and confetti is dropping on one of the other guys. your beliefs are not going to do much good other than you can always say "I voted for Ron Paul". 3) What's a wasted vote? Refer back to number 2............Why not vote for Ross Perot this election?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    1) I do my own thinking. I've heard Ron Paul speak. 2) You can hold to your fundamental beliefs. That's great, but when the lights are turned off at the polls and confetti is dropping on one of the other guys. your beliefs are not going to do much good other than you can always say "I voted for Ron Paul". 3) What's a wasted vote? Refer back to number 2............Why not vote for Ross Perot this election?
    My fundamental beliefs? What beliefs are those?

    If number 2 is a definition of "wasted vote" then the only people who aren't wasting their votes are the ones that voted for the winner. With that logic, I need a crystal ball in order to not waste my vote. Apparently, every election, almost 50% of the people wasted their vote. How can we prevent such waste? How about only running one candidate? That way everyone's vote counts.

    I don't believe Ross is running. Am I mistaken?
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-11-2012 at 05:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Please post a single instance of Ron Paul saying we should "ignore terrorist."

    He has said that we should pull back from foreign engagements to better protect our borders, and that we should stop doing the things that create terrorism.

    I didn't say that he said that in exact words, but I've heard him talk and if the U.S gets into any heavy s@#t defensively. He is NOT the one I would want at the helm. Peace is great. But sometimes sitting around singing Kumbaya doesn't cut it.
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    Ron Paul has stated that if another country starts some sh!t with us, he has no problem kicking ass and finishing the job. He opposes pointless, useless, expensive wars that only serve to drive us into debt and piss off other nations.

    I've never heard him say he'd roll over on his back, or sing kumbaya. I have heard the lame stream media falsely label him that way though...

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    My fundamental beliefs? What beliefs are those?

    If number 2 is a definition of "wasted vote" then the only people who aren't wasting their votes are the ones that voted for the winner. With that logic, I need a crystal ball in order to not waste my vote. Apparently, every election, almost 50% of the people wasted their vote. How can we prevent such waste? How about only running one candidate? That way everyone's vote counts.

    I don't believe Ross is running. Am I mistaken?

    When I said "Your fundamental beliefs", I meant people in general that are voting for their candidate no matter what. If there is a race between 3 horses and one hurts his leg and is taken out of the race. I'm going to put my money on my favorite out of the two horses left. No matter how much I wanted the horse taken out of the race to win. Some of you guys just want to argue. In the end, three or four years from now. If Obama wins and flies this country into the ground, you'll have the comfort of knowing that you stuck by your guns. And by "you'll" and "you" I mean the people that stayed home and didn't help get rid of Obama. And no, Ross is not running. He was another horse taken out of the race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    When I said "Your fundamental beliefs", I meant people in general that are voting for their candidate no matter what. If there is a race between 3 horses and one hurts his leg and is taken out of the race. I'm going to put my money on my favorite out of the two horses left. No matter how much I wanted the horse taken out of the race to win.
    If that's the case, I presume you'll vote for Obama if a poll comes out shortly before the election stating he is ahead.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Ron Paul has stated that if another country starts some sh!t with us, he has no problem kicking ass and finishing the job. He opposes pointless, useless, expensive wars that only serve to drive us into debt and piss off other nations.

    I've never heard him say he'd roll over on his back, or sing kumbaya. I have heard the lame stream media falsely label him that way though...
    What I have heard him say is that he'd go to Congress for approval of war, since that's what the constitution demands. That's totally just sitting and singing kumbaya, right? :P
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    What I have heard him say is that he'd go to Congress for approval of war, since that's what the constitution demands. That's totally just sitting and singing kumbaya, right? :P
    +1
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    I thought Ron Paul was the lesser of the evils in the Repub Primary.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    I keep hearing mooselips dither and qualify and back-pedal. Okay. He's feeling attacked. And he is being attacked. And rightly so. His half-baked justification for voting for someone he doesn't like is about as useful as nipples on men.

    This thread is irrevocably derailed. FINE YOU BASTARDS I HATE YOU! So let's talk, yet again, about principled voting.

    There are two fundamental positions, when it comes to voting: 1) you vote for the person you think might be able to win, based upon some selection criterion that identifies such person as being the closest, however far away, to your world view; and 2) you vote for the person you think would actually represent you.

    Interestingly, it's always the people in camp 1) who appeal to principle while insisting that their just-less-than-worst-case pick is the only moral choice, while insisting that those in camp 2) are secret agents for the other side at best, or ignorant morons who want to destroy the world, at worst. In reality, only the people in camp 2) can sleep with a clear conscience.

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    If that's the case, I presume you'll vote for Obama if a poll comes out shortly before the election stating he is ahead.

    I said my favorite. Not Obama! If you read any of my replies, I think it's obvious that I don't want Obama to win. There seems to be a lot of jumping on the bandwagon, but nobody seems to be willing to answer the original question. Will you vote for Romney or stay home? Before words are put in my mouth. I understand that who you vote for is private and your own business. BUT, I also understand that some of you just don't want to be ostracized from the Ron Paul club.
    watch your top knot !

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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    I said my favorite.
    You said "the favorite." In American English, that phrase refers to the likely winner.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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