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Thread: Challenge to the "lesser of two evils" crowd

  1. #26
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    I keep hearing mooselips dither and qualify and back-pedal. Okay. He's feeling attacked. And he is being attacked. And rightly so. His half-baked justification for voting for someone he doesn't like is about as useful as nipples on men.

    This thread is irrevocably derailed. FINE YOU BASTARDS I HATE YOU! So let's talk, yet again, about principled voting.

    There are two fundamental positions, when it comes to voting: 1) you vote for the person you think might be able to win, based upon some selection criterion that identifies such person as being the closest, however far away, to your world view; and 2) you vote for the person you think would actually represent you.

    Interestingly, it's always the people in camp 1) who appeal to principle while insisting that their just-less-than-worst-case pick is the only moral choice, while insisting that those in camp 2) are secret agents for the other side at best, or ignorant morons who want to destroy the world, at worst. In reality, only the people in camp 2) can sleep with a clear conscience.

    "Mooselips" That's a hoot! Think that up by yourself? I'm not dithering,qualifying, or back-pedaling. Also, I don't feel attacked. I don't have to justify who I'm voting for. What do I care what you think? It doesn't bother me that others agree with you. There must be a lot of people voting for Romney, being that he's the front-runner, and Ron Paul, well, isn't. I am curious about the original question though. Could be some agree, but don't want to deal with the B.S.
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  2. #27
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    You said "the favorite." In American English, that phrase refers to the likely winner.
    Go back and check my reply. It says "my favorite". We can go back and forth all day. Why don't some of you just go on record by answering the question? I say what I mean. I don't care what others think.
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  3. #28
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    It it not clear? Unless Paul completely drops out most of us would still vote for him over Obama or Romney.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It it not clear? Unless Paul completely drops out most of us would still vote for him over Obama or Romney.
    That's because most of us realized we're running out of time. There's no time for "lesser of two evils" crap anymore.

  5. #30
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Hmm, Romney vs Obama... I'll vote for Obama, again. The only decent president to come from Massachusetts was John Adams, and his Son, and that's a big stretch of things, but at-least the former was a fighter during the revolutionary war in the diplomatic sense, a level headed lawyer who wasn't afraid to play devils advocate, and the latter was sent to learn of Russian, and other societies. Cannot say the same for Romney.
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  6. #31
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    Is there really a point to voting in the main election if the electoral colleges don't have to follow popular vote? Sure they do most times but as seen in in recent years bush won not of popular vote but electoral. I've heard of people renting an apartment and changing where they are registered so their vote counts for more in the elections within the same party leading up to the big show. Say your state is going to lean heavily to santorum and your a Romney fan. In order to help another state that's more on the fence you could rent a property and register to vote in that state where your vote would technically mean more than your home state..
    Last edited by Sorcice; 05-14-2012 at 04:55 AM.

  7. #32
    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    I read allot of good arguments here so here is mine.

    If Ron Paul runs and so does Romney, the Obama will win. Ron just won't get enough votes, sadly, because he has mine.

    If Ron does not run and puts all his support behind Romney, Romney may win. If Obama wins he will destroy whats left of our Constitution and we will be answering to the U.N. If Romney wins, he will destroy us much slower, but he too has to pony up to those elite in charge.

    So its death by bullet train, or death by a million paper cuts.

  8. #33
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    After reading comment about the subject on Lewrockwell.com on the lack of "Romney" campaign signs, I started looking. I haven't seen one bumper sticker one sign for him in my county. And the lack of Obama signs and stickers interest me too, compared to the last election.

    I do see a lot of Ron Paul signs and bumper stickers. Too bad people will just vote for who they believe to be the likely winner of the two evils.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6-shooter View Post
    Ross Perot siphoned off enough conservative votes to elect Bill Clinton.

    Those who don't learn from history repeat history's mistakes.
    True. And the Republican Party obviously didn't learn the lesson the first time. Perhaps it is time for the lesson to be repeated.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    True. And the Republican Party obviously didn't learn the lesson the first time. Perhaps it is time for the lesson to be repeated.
    I agree that the Republican party has some lessons to learn. I just don't think that learning a lesson at the time Obama could be re-elected is the right time. This country is on a verge right now. We may not have a country in 4 years.
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    I voted for Paul in the Republican primary. For the general, http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Hmm, Romney vs Obama... I'll vote for Obama, again. <snipped wholly irrelevant non sequitur>
    Hmm, as a good liberal, weren't you against the wars, the abuse of civil liberties under the PATRIOT act and executive orders, the crackdowns on medical marijuana patients (all things I also opposed, by the way), and other unfortunate actions of the Bush administration? Obama has continued and expanded all of the above, yet simple Obamatons like you still think he's better for some reason (voting for a man of (half) color makes you feel better about yourself?).

    How's that whole "hope and change" thing working out for you? If you opposed Bush and vote for Obama again, you are either a fool, a hypocrite, or both.

    P.S.: Just because he gave your little "community" a reacharound the other day (forced on him by bin Biden, the dumbest VP since Quayle), doesn't mean that he is expressing his true liberal values. Obama, during his career, has not "evolved" on the issue, only completely changed his position when it suited him, depending on which race he was running at the time. It is more clearly an example of his master manipulation skills. He sees what makes folks like you tick, and played you like a violin. The existence of so many blind drones, like yourself, who are easily controlled by demagogues, provides a great illustration of why the Founders (along with every great political thinker since Aristotle) considered democracy to be, by far, the worst form of government.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    I read allot of good arguments here so here is mine.

    If Ron Paul runs and so does Romney, the Obama will win.
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...39_ron_paul_13
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ey_49_obama_44

    These two polls were from the same day last week.

    In a 2-way race, Romney wins 49 to 44.
    In a 3-way race including Ron Paul, Romney still wins 44 to 39, and RP picks up 13%.

    It shows that Paul pulls just as many points from Obama as he does from Romney, and also picks up 3% who were either undecided or voting for a different candidate.

  14. #39
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Hmm, as a good liberal, weren't you against the wars, the abuse of civil liberties under the PATRIOT act and executive orders, the crackdowns on medical marijuana patients (all things I also opposed, by the way), and other unfortunate actions of the Bush administration? Obama has continued and expanded all of the above, yet simple Obamatons like you still think he's better for some reason (voting for a man of (half) color makes you feel better about yourself?).

    How's that whole "hope and change" thing working out for you? If you opposed Bush and vote for Obama again, you are either a fool, a hypocrite, or both.

    P.S.: Just because he gave your little "community" a reacharound the other day (forced on him by bin Biden, the dumbest VP since Quayle), doesn't mean that he is expressing his true liberal values. Obama, during his career, has not "evolved" on the issue, only completely changed his position when it suited him, depending on which race he was running at the time. It is more clearly an example of his master manipulation skills. He sees what makes folks like you tick, and played you like a violin. The existence of so many blind drones, like yourself, who are easily controlled by demagogues, provides a great illustration of why the Founders (along with every great political thinker since Aristotle) considered democracy to be, by far, the worst form of government.
    Actually, I whole-heartedly, and still do, support the war effort in Afghanistan, and I supported the invasion, take-over, and war in Iraq as well. As I have also supported Military action in Libya, Egypt, and Syria in any and all forms. So no, little MIB, I was -not- opposed, or against any of the U.S. Lead, or backed military actions Since Dubya became President.

    I do however, have and still oppose the USAPATRIOT act, and similiar policies and/or legislation. In all actuality, I only oppose few of Fmr President Bush's policies, and legislation, as opposed to my hostility to a majority of current President Obama's policies and indescreations.

    Tell me, on how exactly openly supporting the LGBT community, helps us in any way, when the slight majority of our House, and senate at-large, still oppose same-sex, and trans-gender equality.

    Obama's lack of evolution within his career, his near-constant flip-flopping of issues, and choices, deciding, and undeciding, is not that uncommmon for the Office of President. As, if anyone of a sane, level-head can tell, every single president we've had, since our nations' founding, has displayed the same exact 'features'. Even the, so-called "great republican", Lincoln, flip-flopped on the issue of emancipation, at first favoring deportation of Black-americans, then to "separate, but equal" in his later months in office.

    Oh, and for the record... I am -not- 'liberal'; I'm a "dixiecrat", a Southern-Democrat, I hold ultra-conservative views on economy, Liberal on Social issues, and neutral on foreign policy. Furthermore, I would ask you to please keep your personal attacks on my character, and latent down-grading, to yourself. Just because you can put someone down, insult them, and their political decisions/opinions/points-of-view on issues their most vocal on, doesn't mean you should; As this is online, and a private board, such "free speech" is not guaranteed, you want to enjoy such freedoms, do so offline, in a peaceably assembled group of like-minded individuals, etc.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    I'm a "dixiecrat", a Southern-Democrat, I hold ultra-conservative views on economy, Liberal on Social issues, and neutral on foreign policy.
    You don't know what you're talking about. My good friend Strom Thurmond is spinning in his grave. Prolly grinning for the unholy epithet he might have spat at you with a swig of good corn liquor. Mind your tongue and your manners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Actually, I whole-heartedly, and still do, support the war effort in Afghanistan, and I supported the invasion, take-over, and war in Iraq as well. As I have also supported Military action in Libya, Egypt, and Syria in any and all forms. So no, little MIB, I was -not- opposed, or against any of the U.S. Lead, or backed military actions Since Dubya became President.
    Oh, so you blindly cleave to imperialist tendencies and are easily manipulated by manufactured propaganda. Thanks for clearing that up.

    I do however, have and still oppose the USAPATRIOT act, and similiar policies and/or legislation.
    And what has your beloved Obama done about that, other than extending and expanding?

    In all actuality, I only oppose few of Fmr President Bush's policies, and legislation, as opposed to my hostility to a majority of current President Obama's policies and indescreations.
    Tell me again what makes Obama preferable to Romney (I believe them to be equally bad and will vote accordingly).

    Tell me, on how exactly openly supporting the LGBT community, helps us in any way, when the slight majority of our House, and senate at-large, still oppose same-sex, and trans-gender equality.
    The "LGBT community" is perpetually whining about how it must not only be allowed to exist, but needs to be celebrated and promoted by society. Your president just did that. You should be thrilled, and we should stop having to hear about "LGBT issues."

    Regarding "trans-gender equality," what law, precisely, forbids you to put on your high heels, a dress, and prance around downtown, like a fool, to your heart's content? Again, you don't want the mere right to practice your chosen lifestyle; you want acceptance and celebration. Sorry, but you have to earn that, and you just aren't going to get it from most Americans outside of SF, Miami, and the New York/Boston liberal hell.

    Obama's lack of evolution within his career, his near-constant flip-flopping of issues, and choices, deciding, and undeciding, is not that uncommmon for the Office of President.
    Agreed, as of recent years. However, it is by no means a desirable trait and when there are candidates running who are not flip-floppers, it seems odd you would cast a vote for Obama.

    As, if anyone of a sane, level-head can tell, every single president we've had, since our nations' founding, has displayed the same exact 'features'. Even the, so-called "great republican", Lincoln, flip-flopped on the issue of emancipation, at first favoring deportation of Black-americans, then to "separate, but equal" in his later months in office.
    Lincoln was a tyrannical piece of s***, who did more than any other man (until FDR and possibly Obama) to centralize power within the federal government and destroy the republican government our Founders left to us.

    Lincoln in no way embodies the traits of presidents previous to him.

    Oh, and for the record... I am -not- 'liberal'; I'm a "dixiecrat", a Southern-Democrat, I hold ultra-conservative views on economy, Liberal on Social issues, and neutral on foreign policy.
    You clearly have no idea what "Dixiecrat" means. Try reading a book sometime.

    Furthermore, I would ask you to please keep your personal attacks on my character, and latent down-grading, to yourself. Just because you can put someone down, insult them, and their political decisions/opinions/points-of-view on issues their most vocal on, doesn't mean you should; As this is online, and a private board, such "free speech" is not guaranteed, you want to enjoy such freedoms, do so offline, in a peaceably assembled group of like-minded individuals, etc.
    While I doubt you have much of a character to attack, it is your ideas that I am attempting to destroy. If you don't want to get taken to task for your ridiculous statements, don't post them online. Alternatively, educate yourself before posting further and you won't get torn apart as much.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 05-15-2012 at 10:36 AM.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    You're going to vote for your party's nominee no matter what. We're all very much aware of that.

    So, if you're in the Republican camp, why not vote for Ron Paul in your state primary or caucus, if it's still coming up? What's the possible down-side? This isn't the Presidential vote in November, it's the party nomination. You're already convinced that Romney is the inevitable nominee and all you care about is voting against Obama. So why not vote for Ron Paul for the nomination? What could you possibly have to lose?
    "All voting is a sort of gaming, like checkers or backgammon, with a slight moral tinge to it, a playing with right and wrong, with moral questions; and betting naturally accompanies it. The character of the voters is not staked. I cast my vote, perchance, as I think right; but I am not vitally concerned that that right should prevail. I am willing to leave it to the majority. Its obligation, therefore, never exceeds that of expediency. Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men. When the majority shall at length vote for the abolition of slavery, it will be because they are indifferent to slavery, or because there is but little slavery left to be abolished by their vote. They will then be the only slaves. Only his vote can hasten the abolition of slavery who asserts his own freedom by his vote."

    "I hear of a convention to be held at Baltimore, or elsewhere, for the selection of a candidate for the Presidency, made up chiefly of editors, and men who are politicians by profession; but I think, what is it to any independent, intelligent, and respectable man what decision they may come to? Shall we not have the advantage of his wisdom and honesty, nevertheless? Can we not count upon some independent votes? Are there not many individuals in the country who do not attend conventions? But no: I find that the respectable man, so called, has immediately drifted from his position, and despairs of his country, when his country has more reason to despair of him. He forthwith adopts one of the candidates thus selected as the only available one, thus proving that he is himself available for any purposes of the demagogue. His vote is of no more worth than that of any unprincipled foreigner or hireling native, who may have been bought. Oh for a man who is a man, and, as my neighbor says, has a bone in his back which you cannot pass your hand through! Our statistics are at fault: the population has been returned too large. How many men are there to a square thousand miles in this country? Hardly one."
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    I will never again vote for the lesser of two evils. I'm not for sale.

    I will always vote my mind from here on. Is a vote for Ron Paul a vote for Obama? Sure it is. Will Romney winning make us a freer nation? No. So find me the difference.

    Obama wins: They destroy what remains of this nation.

    Romney wins: They do it slower.

    Paul wins: They will kill him if he actually tries to do what he has promised.


    End result? More Freedom or more tyrannical governance? Sorry guys, the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. And it's full of chains and tyranny. For you and me and our kids.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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  18. #43
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I would MUCH rather Obama win this election and start fixing things next that continue this game that our leaders have us play.
    Because his track record with fixing things is great? {sarcasm}


    If Obama is reelected, look for this country to take an even steeper slide to destruction. Why, you ask? He has already signed into law the NDAA, which effectively removes our 4th and 5th amendment rights.

    On December 25th 2011, while we were all in our Christmas Day slumber, he signed an executive order allowing $614.4 BILLION, thats $614,400,000,000 tax payer dollars, to Eurpopean banks to bail out the Euro. And the money is still flowing.

    He has already stated, publicly, that the Constitution is out dated, and is no longer relevant in todays society.

    The fact that he has not actually helped this economy is hilarious.

    The only thing stopping him from doing more damage right now, is his reelection. I think he is going to wait until he has four more years to do the real damage. Then he has nothing to lose.

    And if you think this current "justice system" will actually do anything to keep the president under control, then Id like to know what hole you have been hiding in.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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  19. #44
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    After reading comment about the subject on Lewrockwell.com on the lack of "Romney" campaign signs, I started looking. I haven't seen one bumper sticker one sign for him in my county. And the lack of Obama signs and stickers interest me too, compared to the last election.

    I do see a lot of Ron Paul signs and bumper stickers. Too bad people will just vote for who they believe to be the likely winner of the two evils.
    Same thing in my area south of you.

    I've even seen pro-Ron Paul signs in Kirkland.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  20. #45
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post

    If Obama is reelected, look for this country to take an even steeper slide to destruction. Why, you ask? He has already signed into law the NDAA, which effectively removes our 4th and 5th amendment rights.
    Any law that is contrary to the constitution is to be ignored as though it never existed.

    He has already stated, publicly, that the Constitution is out dated, and is no longer relevant in today's society.
    Sounds like some soldiers need to re-read their oath.

    I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

    Are you thinking the same thing I am thinking, Pinky?

    The fact that he has not actually helped this economy is hilarious.

    The only thing stopping him from doing more damage right now, is his reelection. I think he is going to wait until he has four more years to do the real damage. Then he has nothing to lose.
    It's scary because you are correct.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Because his track record with fixing things is great? {sarcasm}

    If Obama is reelected, look for this country to take an even steeper slide to destruction. Why, you ask? He has already signed into law the NDAA, which effectively removes our 4th and 5th amendment rights.
    With a large portion of a Republican congress holding his hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    On December 25th 2011, while we were all in our Christmas Day slumber, he signed an executive order allowing $614.4 BILLION, thats $614,400,000,000 tax payer dollars, to Eurpopean banks to bail out the Euro. And the money is still flowing.
    So. We've been hemorrhaging regardless of who's in the White House. Romney won't change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    He has already stated, publicly, that the Constitution is out dated, and is no longer relevant in todays society.

    The fact that he has not actually helped this economy is hilarious.

    The only thing stopping him from doing more damage right now, is his reelection. I think he is going to wait until he has four more years to do the real damage. Then he has nothing to lose.
    Yeah you're right... It's the Repub's turn to do damage now. Fair is fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    And if you think this current "justice system" will actually do anything to keep the president under control, then Id like to know what hole you have been hiding in.
    Probably the same one you're typing from.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-15-2012 at 07:59 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Any law that is contrary to the constitution is to be ignored as though it never existed. SNIP
    But of course you'd better be ready for the fight. Otherwise, you may find yourself incarcerated for an inconvenient amount of time.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 05-15-2012 at 08:03 PM.

  23. #48
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    [QUOTE=Tucker6900;1754176]Because his track record with fixing things is great? {sarcasm}


    If Obama is reelected, look for this country to take an even steeper slide to destruction.


    That is precisely the point he was making. The country is so deep in denial it will take a complete collapse to wake most of these jack asses up. Even I am beginning to feel that way. I'm afraid we as American's have our heads so far up our collective asses that it's going to take a harsh harsh kick to get us to pull it out of there.
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  24. #49
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    [QUOTE=CharleyCherokee;1754458]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Because his track record with fixing things is great? {sarcasm}


    If Obama is reelected, look for this country to take an even steeper slide to destruction.


    That is precisely the point he was making. The country is so deep in denial it will take a complete collapse to wake most of these jack asses up. Even I am beginning to feel that way. I'm afraid we as American's have our heads so far up our collective asses that it's going to take a harsh harsh kick to get us to pull it out of there.
    Thanks. I think that if we make a showing to do what is right over what we are told is right then we can fix this mess we are in. All I ever hear is "I support Paul but I won't vote for him because a vote for him is a vote for Obama." or something similar. It seems so few are willing to do what is best for them and our country because they think that if they do then they will get the worst over the worse. This is not the way the system was designed, only how we are persuaded to play. And even "knowledgeable" members of this forum are playing into that. I would lose my freedoms (elect Obama) to protect those of generations after (allow them the ability to elect ANYONE) if that is the cost.

    I too would much rather Obama not win the next election (or any election after) so I refuse to vote for "Obama-lite".
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    But of course you'd better be ready for the fight. Otherwise, you may find yourself incarcerated for an inconvenient amount of time.
    From time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

    What is better giving up or standing up?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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