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CHP notification at a traffic stop

peter nap

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While VA in general doesn't have a stop and ID law where you have to provide ID, I thought VA Beach did have a local ordinance. Depending on where I am driving to/from my customers I may not know whether I am in VA Beach, Norfolk or Chesapeake. Am I wrong about the VA Beach ordinance? Do other localities have similar ordinances if VA Beach does? I figure if the person pulling me over is wearing a uniform from that city it will tell me where I am. :)

They do but you don't and some do!
 

wylde007

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Virginia Beach does not have a "stop and ID" ordinance. They can detain and request name and address (or something) if they have RAS, and in the case I mentioned involving myself I guess they did.

They cannot demand "ID", but they convoluted the argument by running my information, it came back that I have a CHP and they said I was supposed to inform them. Lie. Then they said because I was carrying concealed I was obligated to provide the identification.

It was a circular argument, which began with me acceding to their request (demand) to produce identification.
 

peter nap

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That's the real B**** of it. I mean is it truly worth it to try and remember every locality's ordinances? Or just err on the side of caution?

Nope!
Just say no to all of them.:banana:

If they can't legally enforce it, why egg it on? That's what keeps these things on the books.
 

Glockster

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Virginia Beach does not have a "stop and ID" ordinance. They can detain and request name and address (or something) if they have RAS, and in the case I mentioned involving myself I guess they did.

They cannot demand "ID", but they convoluted the argument by running my information, it came back that I have a CHP and they said I was supposed to inform them. Lie. Then they said because I was carrying concealed I was obligated to provide the identification.

It was a circular argument, which began with me acceding to their request (demand) to produce identification.

Yes it does have a stop and ID ordinance -- sort of (and I've posted about this here in other threads). They have an ordinance that requires you to identify yourself pretty much whenever they want. And LEO has and does take that to give them the right to require you to produce actual identification. The ordinance is currently on the books. I've already taken the first shot at it by getting them to produce their justification, which I provided to User who has indicated that their supposed authority to require identification is incorrect and that they lack any such legal basis for what they claim (much short version of a longer discussion).

So all we need is for someone to get arrested for refusing so that it can be battled out in court, or User files a lawsuit. Until then, the law is on the books and you have a high degree of probability that you will be required to produce identification or be subject to arrest.
 

Glockster

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While VA in general doesn't have a stop and ID law where you have to provide ID, I thought VA Beach did have a local ordinance. Depending on where I am driving to/from my customers I may not know whether I am in VA Beach, Norfolk or Chesapeake. Am I wrong about the VA Beach ordinance? Do other localities have similar ordinances if VA Beach does? I figure if the person pulling me over is wearing a uniform from that city it will tell me where I am. :)

Yes, you are remembering correctly (see above). VB has an ordinance that they don't have the legal right to have, and (surprise) they then use that to require that you produce identification.
 

MagiK_SacK

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Yes it does have a stop and ID ordinance -- sort of (and I've posted about this here in other threads). They have an ordinance that requires you to identify yourself pretty much whenever they want. And LEO has and does take that to give them the right to require you to produce actual identification. The ordinance is currently on the books. I've already taken the first shot at it by getting them to produce their justification, which I provided to User who has indicated that their supposed authority to require identification is incorrect and that they lack any such legal basis for what they claim (much short version of a longer discussion).

So all we need is for someone to get arrested for refusing so that it can be battled out in court, or User files a lawsuit. Until then, the law is on the books and you have a high degree of probability that you will be required to produce identification or be subject to arrest.

I'm sorry but what is bold is incorrect. See below

Sec. 23-7.1. - Providing identification to police officer. said:
It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

(Ord. No. 1570, 12-16-85)

http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...IMIOF.html#CO_CH23OF_ARTIMIOF_S23-7.1PRIDPOOF

So given that information you are only required to give name and address given it is not a traffic stop(that's a different story). The key to it though is the last part of the ordinance. Where is that phrase defined? That is a serious question too. If it has been legally defined in VA I would really like to know because I cant find it anywhere. Given the fact that I currently do not know a legal definition, I can only believe that a cop will define it to suit his/her needs. Even if there was would you trust the police to follow that legal definition. Sure you can take him to court over it, but that's a personal decision.
 

Glockster

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I'm sorry but what is bold is incorrect. See below



So given that information you are only required to give name and address given it is not a traffic stop(that's a different story). The key to it though is the last part of the ordinance. Where is that phrase defined? That is a serious question too. If it has been legally defined in VA I would really like to know because I cant find it anywhere. Given the fact that I currently do not know a legal definition, I can only believe that a cop will define it to suit his/her needs. Even if there was would you trust the police to follow that legal definition. Sure you can take him to court over it, but that's a personal decision.


You're either not reading my post correctly or are misunderstanding it. But what I posted is NOT INCORRECT. As I stated, regardless of what the ordinance says, how it has and is being utilized is to require producing of actual identification. I can state that for an absolute fact -- leave it to anyone else to post their "me to" but I was required to produce my driver's license. I do know of others (by name) who have had to do the same, but I can speak firsthand about my own experience.

As for the meaning of the ordinance and that language, I defer to User as the attorney. Regardless he has stated that it is not a valid ordinance regardless of that meaning.
 

MagiK_SacK

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You're either not reading my post correctly or are misunderstanding it. But what I posted is NOT INCORRECT. As I stated, regardless of what the ordinance says, how it has and is being utilized is to require producing of actual identification. I can state that for an absolute fact -- leave it to anyone else to post their "me to" but I was required to produce my driver's license. I do know of others (by name) who have had to do the same, but I can speak firsthand about my own experience.

As for the meaning of the ordinance and that language, I defer to User as the attorney. Regardless he has stated that it is not a valid ordinance regardless of that meaning.

I understand that you were stating there is an ordinance on the books. I on the other hand did not understand that you were saying they were using the ordinance REGARDLESS of the language to require you to produce an actual ID. I took it as if you were saying that the ordinance stated ID. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as that goes, I guess I can see how they would use that to require you to produce a physical ID given the fact that the ordinance does not state verbally. Even though I would think the a reasonable person reading the ordinance would agree that is meant for a verbal identification.

So note to self, when I go for a walk while OC, don't take my wallet with me. There is nothing anywhere that I know of that requires you to carry and ID with you at all times. A drivers license is only to show that you are licensed to drive a car so as long as you leave it in the car what can they really do?
 

Glockster

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Yes...that's what I meant by:
And LEO has and does take that to give them the right to require you to produce actual identification.

As for the not carrying any identification with you, I've lived here 28 years and can remember instances of individuals taken into custody because they were unable to produce said required identification. In my own situation, I really don't want to go into the details here but I was in my own yard (not exactly what I'd consider to be public property) and did not have my driver's license with me. I was told that I was required to go into the house to retrieve it. The implication of not doing so seemed to be pretty clear to me at the time and I didn't want to go down that road. And of course that was before I started keeping User's contact info in my smart phone.

That's why this VB ordinance is a particular "hot button" with me. I've seen it applied that way, and now have their supposed justification in writing. Not a very comfortable place to be. Anyway, didn't want to turn this thread into a discussion on that as it is moving OT but was just trying to answer the above question asked about VB.

I understand that you were stating there is an ordinance on the books. I on the other hand did not understand that you were saying they were using the ordinance REGARDLESS of the language to require you to produce an actual ID. I took it as if you were saying that the ordinance stated ID. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as that goes, I guess I can see how they would use that to require you to produce a physical ID given the fact that the ordinance does not state verbally. Even though I would think the a reasonable person reading the ordinance would agree that is meant for a verbal identification.

So note to self, when I go for a walk while OC, don't take my wallet with me. There is nothing anywhere that I know of that requires you to carry and ID with you at all times. A drivers license is only to show that you are licensed to drive a car so as long as you leave it in the car what can they really do?
 

MagiK_SacK

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Yea, I guess we kinda did go to the opposite side of the question. That topic is kind of a big one for me, maybe if you make it to the next VB OC Dinner I can pick your brain on the subject. Again sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

Tosta Dojen

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The key to it though is the last part of the ordinance. Where is that phrase defined? That is a serious question too. If it has been legally defined in VA I would really like to know because I cant find it anywhere.

The Supreme Court of Virginia considered the question in Jones v. Commonwealth, 230 Va. 14, 334 S.E.2d 536 (1985):



Section 17-13 of the Arlington County Code is entitled "Loitering—Peace and good order." Subsection (c) provides:

It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

Jones argues that § 17-13(c) is unconstitutional because it is "[v]iolative of Fourth Amendment Rights." The code section "allows police to stop citizens without any reasonable suspicion that the individual is involved in criminal activity," Jones asserts, and "does not require the police officer to have even an articulable suspicion that the individual detained is involved in, has committed, or is about to commit a crime." Jones concludes that, because it was unlawful for the police to detain and question him, his arrest for violating § 17-13(c) was also unlawful and, because the heroin was the fruit of the unlawful arrest, the evidence concerning the drug should have been suppressed.[1]

We disagree with Jones. As the Attorney General points out, § 17-13(c) does not purport to authorize a police officer to stop and question an individual on the street. Rather, as the Attorney General indicates further, criminal liability for failure to furnish identification under § 17-13(c) arises only when some independent basis justifies the detention and questioning of an individual in the first place, for example, "where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1884, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968).
 

Tosta Dojen

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I think thats technically true.... but I also recall a case in Roanoke where a man refused to answer the 'Are you carrying a gun?' question (after producing his CHP to the officer upon request). He was arrested, and later filed suit. I seem to think he eventually lost on an appeal.

Here is the original story.... (I'm running out the door right now, but this might give you enough info to find the ultimate resolution)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2419313/posts

The officer didn't request the CHP; it came up automatically when he ran the computer check. (Kwiecinski Deposition, p.11).
 

riverrat10k

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Unless I know I will need it, my drivers license stays in my car with my registration.

I do not carry any other picture ID with me. I almost always have my CHP, hunting, and fishing licenses, though.

Demand away, I can't produce what I don't have with me.
 

Glockster

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Unless I know I will need it, my drivers license stays in my car with my registration.

I do not carry any other picture ID with me. I almost always have my CHP, hunting, and fishing licenses, though.

Demand away, I can't produce what I don't have with me.

But you are required to carry a government issued photo identification with your CHP, so I believe that you would have to produce that with your CHP if asked to produce your CHP. So do you remove your driver's license from your car to have with you if you CC outside of your vehicle?
 

peter nap

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But you are required to carry a government issued photo identification with your CHP, so I believe that you would have to produce that with your CHP if asked to produce your CHP. So do you remove your driver's license from your car to have with you if you CC outside of your vehicle?

Not if you're OCing and RR OC's most of the time.
 

peter nap

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Right, understand. That's what I meant when I said "if you CC outside of your vehicle" in that I wasn't talking about during OC.

What is RR OC?

River Rat Open Carries.....

What you said was "But you are required to carry a government issued photo identification with your CHP"
Which isn't true. Only if you CC. The fact that he keeps his CHP and Hunting and Fishing licenses in a separate holder( I don't have a CHP and don't have to have a hunting license but carry my fishing license in a waterproof pouch) ...is not relevant because he still only needs the ID if he conceals.
 
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Glockster

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River Rat Open Carries.....

What you said was "But you are required to carry a government issued photo identification with your CHP"
Which isn't true. Only if you CC. The fact that he keeps his CHP and Hunting and Fishing licenses in a separate holder( I don't have a CHP and don't have to have a hunting license but carry my fishing license in a waterproof pouch) ...is not relevant because he still only needs the ID if he conceals.

Oh I see what you're saying -- I didn't mean it that way. I was referring to riverrat10k saying that he had his CHP with but saying that he keeps his license in the car and I was going on an assumption that if he has a CHP, then he's using it. So I was referring to him 'CC and needing the driver's license + CHP for that.

But of course you're right about not needing a DL to OC. Ignoring the whole VB thing (couldn't resist) of course.
 
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