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Thread: Nothing Like Beautiful Weather & Grumpy People

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Nothing Like Beautiful Weather & Grumpy People

    I met some friends at the dog park, because it is amazing outside today. As soon as I sat down an older gentleman asked “What’s with the gun?” I said “I always carry.” He said “Oh, ok.” However, two ladies wanted to get into it right after. One lady said “You need to put your gun in your car, you’re not allowed to have that here!” I kindly replied “I’m sorry but you’re mistaken, it’s within my right to carry here.” She snapped back with “No you’re not, some people aren’t allowed around guns and it’s their right to not have to be.” The second lady chimed in and said “It says it right there on the sign that you can’t have a gun.” I walked over with her and BEHOLD “No firearms permitted” So, I asked her “Who owns this property?” knowing it’s a city park. She answered with “The city owns it.” So, I said “Ok, well the sign is wrong, because of State Preemption, cities can’t make laws the further restrict my right to carry.” The two of them whispered for awhile about calling the police, and one stepped away while she spoke with them. The first mouthy lady said “What makes you think you can carry here?” I replied with “What law says I can’t? In fact not too long ago Seattle had this same issue, trying to make laws saying you can’t carry at a park and they lost because they’re not allowed to.” She walked over to her friend that was on the phone. I can only imagine they were told they were wrong because when they came back and sat down they didn’t say anything else. No police ever showed and I went about my business throwing Maverick a ball.

    Note: This is the same dog park where I had my first police interaction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUp51...&feature=g-upl
    I am not going to pretend to be some veteran gun rights guru. I was respectful to these two through the entire encounter, but if anyone has some Constructive input I would appreciate it.
    Peace

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    Open and shut case. Maybe you could have offered them a pamphlet. I doubt they would be interested. I don't carry them. I prefer people do their own research.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I live in the middle of a city park (Bloedel donovan). The road was paved a few years ago with preemption and a little extra work from OCDO members (SVG and others). The park fixed their sign on the cheap 'cause we are all trying to save a buck. If you are going to be a regular at the park, you might want to link with the guy that maintains it (this could get your sign fixed). Now fixing the "little old ladies" will be more difficult. Good luck mate, Carry on!!
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I live in the middle of a city park (Bloedel donovan). The road was paved a few years ago with preemption and a little extra work from OCDO members (SVG and others). The park fixed their sign on the cheap 'cause we are all trying to save a buck. If you are going to be a regular at the park, you might want to link with the guy that maintains it (this could get your sign fixed). Now fixing the "little old ladies" will be more difficult. Good luck mate, Carry on!!
    The blank spot on the sign would be a perfect spot for something like this....

    Having a good time with lawful behavior is ENCOURAGED!
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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I live in the middle of a city park (Bloedel donovan). The road was paved a few years ago with preemption and a little extra work from OCDO members (SVG and others). The park fixed their sign on the cheap 'cause we are all trying to save a buck. If you are going to be a regular at the park, you might want to link with the guy that maintains it (this could get your sign fixed). Now fixing the "little old ladies" will be more difficult. Good luck mate, Carry on!!
    Yeah, I should get with who ever and get the sign changed. Funny thing is I never seen the sign and I've been going to this dog park for years. There is only one sign and it's tiny.

  6. #6
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    The two of them whispered for awhile about calling the police, and one stepped away while she spoke with them.

    When people threaten to call the police when I'm carrying I've been known to say, "Let me save you the trouble" and pull out my phone. Only once did I have to complete the call. An officer responded and told the other parties I was perfectly within my rights. The guy got such a case of "tight sphincter" that if he'd passed gas at that time it would have sounded like a Steam Whistle.

    I haven't been questioned since the Chan case was decided. Evidently quite a few people actually read the News.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion, concerning such interactions (if this applies) that you are very rarely going to encounter such situations, so when you see them developing, it's prudent to consider -as an option- just leaving the park and coming back later.

    In your case (the OP), I'd suggest you have a pamphlet or copy of state pre-emption laws to hand out -if- you continue to go to this park and have problems.

    The reason is that when we go to a park or on a pleasure outing, our purpose is to experience calm and rest and if you have to confront someone, you are allowing yourself to be diverted (or allowing them to divert you) from your purpose. I ask myself - 'am I still enjoying my excursion?' If I'm not, I need to change my approach, either 'blow it off' or (if riding my bike) ride on and ignore distractions and remain calm.

    It takes some effort not to confront people who desperately NEED to be confronted. Yes, people need to be educated and those who brave these folks pave the way for the next 2A rights person or OC-er or park user in general to have a peaceful time. SO, I'm just suggesting another option be on your mind when these happen IF you find your blood pressure climbing or if you intuit police contact (and this is not what you want).

    FWIW
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  8. #8
    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Good job. It sounded like continuing contact with these people was the thing to do because they actually had their ears open. That's the only anti's that you can deal with. Like was mentioned, it might be best to break contact or even leave if it's the kind of anti that's hysterical about it and won't listen. You won't win that one.

    Still haven't had an issue at the Cavalero dog park (I try to get my dog Snowplow there every other day), although a lot of that might be a demographics thing. Suburban/rural dog owners vs. city/suburban.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiingislife725 View Post
    Good job. It sounded like continuing contact with these people was the thing to do because they actually had their ears open. That's the only anti's that you can deal with. Like was mentioned, it might be best to break contact or even leave if it's the kind of anti that's hysterical about it and won't listen. You won't win that one.

    Still haven't had an issue at the Cavalero dog park (I try to get my dog Snowplow there every other day), although a lot of that might be a demographics thing. Suburban/rural dog owners vs. city/suburban.
    One of the ladies said she is a gun owner but she insisted I couldn't carry at the park. If there wasn't a sign they might have just taken my word on the subject. When they left one asked the other if she was going to Goggle it, so I think they'll come around.

  10. #10
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Could it be that perhaps the sign was installed due to the fact this was "where I had my first police interaction" and some citizen or the city put it up to preclude further incidents?

    just a constructive thought
    wabbit
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    When people threaten to call the police when I'm carrying I've been known to say, "Let me save you the trouble" and pull out my phone. Only once did I have to complete the call. An officer responded and told the other parties I was perfectly within my rights. The guy got such a case of "tight sphincter" that if he'd passed gas at that time it would have sounded like a Steam Whistle.
    Um... so just how does one report ONES SELF as a MWAG??

    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    ...hysterical hoplophobe story...
    so where exactly is this Everett park that seem to draw anti's like flies to roadkill anyways?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  12. #12
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    The first mouthy lady said “What makes you think you can carry here?”
    Please see Article 1 Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution

    <edit to add>
    Seattle v Chan
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 05-13-2012 at 06:47 PM.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok... I considered the option of just leaving the park and coming back later... and decided against it. Thank you for the option.

    If someone does not like my lawful behavior which produces no noise, odor, nor takes up any considerable amount of property/space they have every right to leave and come back later. Let them exercise their options.
    I guess what I'm saying is you -can- choose to select your 'battles' carefully. Often we get so 'involved' in the matter that we fail to see it might fall under the 'situational awareness' principles, and it is just prudent to yield at the time. It's best to stand your ground and win, though and to be able to set a good example and a precedent.

    Sometimes we have to practice various points of view, and see things in a different light. I learned when riding my bike not to take offense at people but just to turn around and go the other way, be like 'water' and flow around it, and not be available to contend, which is 'their' wish, not mine.

    So take it for what it's worth.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok... I considered the option of just leaving the park and coming back later... and decided against it. Thank you for the option.

    If someone does not like my lawful behavior which produces no noise, odor, nor takes up any considerable amount of property/space they have every right to leave and come back later. Let them exercise their options.
    +1

    My day is not going to be determined by her taking offense.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Knowledge

    As many times as you go to that dog park you think they would have gotten over it by now, to bad you didn't have your camera with you this time.

    I am with NavyLCDR and gogodawgs on this one, i have no obligation to give into people like this because they throw the "offended" moniker around. the entire point of OC is to get people accustomed to it again and you do not accomplish that be giving into opposition from the ignorant sheeple.
    +thought for the day+
    ++victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none++

  16. #16
    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok... I considered the option of just leaving the park and coming back later... and decided against it. Thank you for the option.

    If someone does not like my lawful behavior which produces no noise, odor, nor takes up any considerable amount of property/space they have every right to leave and come back later. Let them exercise their options.
    I couldn't agree more. I live near one other dog park... well kind of... it's a beach across from the Naval base. The sand gets my dogs filthy and I don't like the fact it has no fence. The dog park that I go to is right off 41st street and only one exit from my house.

    @ncwabbit No, unless they aged the sign to make it look like it has been there for years. Regardless when it got there it still isn't legal, so it is actually not a constructive thought. Better luck next time.

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    Please see Article 1 Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution

    <edit to add>
    Seattle v Chan
    If only I was as well versed as you. I'll be sure to add this to my repertoire of intelligent answers to ignorant questions... That would make a good book title.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Um... so just how does one report ONES SELF as a MWAG??


    Dispatcher: 911, What is your Emergency?

    Caller: I am being challenged for exercising my Constitutional Right to carry a holstered firearm by someone who doesn't know the law. Could you please send an Officer to explain it to her that I am violating no law and I can get back to enjoying my day at the park without her further hassling me?

    That of course assumes that once you make the offer to call, yourself, that they even take you up on it. Most will then figure out that you have nothing to fear from the Police and just move on to other things like bitching about the dog poop left behind by their friends and neighbors.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Dispatcher: 911, What is your Emergency?

    Caller: I am being challenged for exercising my Constitutional Right to carry a holstered firearm by someone who doesn't know the law. Could you please send an Officer to explain it to her that I am violating no law and I can get back to enjoying my day at the park without her further hassling me?

    That of course assumes that once you make the offer to call, yourself, that they even take you up on it. Most will then figure out that you have nothing to fear from the Police and just move on to other things like bitching about the dog poop left behind by their friends and neighbors.
    I would never invite an LEO to a scene......
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I would never invite an LEO to a scene......
    Ditto. Guy with a gun, an attitude and whose job is to arrest someone. If you know the guys in the dept, that's different. Better to invite your lawyer if you really want to legally trump someone with dumb anti-gun arguments, eh?
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I would never invite an LEO to a scene......
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Ditto. Guy with a gun, an attitude and whose job is to arrest someone. If you know the guys in the dept, that's different. Better to invite your lawyer if you really want to legally trump someone with dumb anti-gun arguments, eh?

    And this. I'd be worried that doing so would get you cited for misusing 911 or something along those lines.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Ditto. Guy with a gun, an attitude and whose job is to arrest someone. If you know the guys in the dept, that's different. Better to invite your lawyer if you really want to legally trump someone with dumb anti-gun arguments, eh?
    I like the "invite your lawyer" part!

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    I'm of the opinion, concerning such interactions (if this applies) that you are very rarely going to encounter such situations, so when you see them developing, it's prudent to consider -as an option- just leaving the park and coming back later.

    In your case (the OP), I'd suggest you have a pamphlet or copy of state pre-emption laws to hand out -if- you continue to go to this park and have problems.

    The reason is that when we go to a park or on a pleasure outing, our purpose is to experience calm and rest and if you have to confront someone, you are allowing yourself to be diverted (or allowing them to divert you) from your purpose. I ask myself - 'am I still enjoying my excursion?' If I'm not, I need to change my approach, either 'blow it off' or (if riding my bike) ride on and ignore distractions and remain calm.

    It takes some effort not to confront people who desperately NEED to be confronted. Yes, people need to be educated and those who brave these folks pave the way for the next 2A rights person or OC-er or park user in general to have a peaceful time. SO, I'm just suggesting another option be on your mind when these happen IF you find your blood pressure climbing or if you intuit police contact (and this is not what you want).

    FWIW
    I disagree that leaving is an option...that would be just like Rosa Parks getting up and moving to the back of the bus. No, if you are going to normalize OC you don't cave in to the busy bodies, you instruct them.

  24. #24
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I disagree that leaving is an option...that would be just like Rosa Parks getting up and moving to the back of the bus. No, if you are going to normalize OC you don't cave in to the busy bodies, you instruct them.
    OK, this speaks to my point. Leaving should always be a weighed option. It's important to choose your battles.

    For someone who is out to make a badly-needed point, who is prepared, who welcomes the challenge, then it makes no sense to leave. But someone who is trying to enjoy the park and the nice day and who routinely carries a fire arm, it's an issue of SA and not becoming 'rooted to the scene' and having blinders on.

    If I go to the park 100 times and never have a problem, and one crops up in the 101st time, I think I'm going to leave, or go elsewhere, then come back later and have another 100 visits go smoothly. But sometimes we get defensive and want to 'push back' when it isn't in our best interests. If that's the case, go armed with information, a recorder and time to confront, don't get 'caught' and end up paying more than it's worth at the time.

    IMO
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  25. #25
    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    OK, this speaks to my point. Leaving should always be a weighed option. It's important to choose your battles.

    For someone who is out to make a badly-needed point, who is prepared, who welcomes the challenge, then it makes no sense to leave. But someone who is trying to enjoy the park and the nice day and who routinely carries a fire arm, it's an issue of SA and not becoming 'rooted to the scene' and having blinders on.

    If I go to the park 100 times and never have a problem, and one crops up in the 101st time, I think I'm going to leave, or go elsewhere, then come back later and have another 100 visits go smoothly. But sometimes we get defensive and want to 'push back' when it isn't in our best interests. If that's the case, go armed with information, a recorder and time to confront, don't get 'caught' and end up paying more than it's worth at the time.

    IMO
    I get what you're say, and I agree to a degree. But, I ain't ever gonna leave just cause someone is saying stuff or police show up. I'm just going to ignore them if their being immature or stand on my rights. I mean even bamboo, with all its strength, yields to the wind. I won't become passive over the issue, however I can recognize a battle not worth fighting. I wouldn't leave my house OCing with the mentality, "I'll just leave if confronted". Sense I am reasonably new to OC, when I leave I know where I am going, so I always double-check to make sure I can do it lawfully and know what to say if confronted. In fact I would consider it mildly irresponsible to not know what to say. Now of course I didn't perfectly present the information to the lady at the dog park, but I will get better over time, which I'm sure even the most experienced carriers went through.

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