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Thread: Why jews hate guns

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Why jews hate guns

    this is a white paper listing some of the reasons jewish people hate guns. love to have your opinions on this....



    JPFO WHITE PAPER


    WHY JEWS HATE GUNS


    Are they right?

    And who are The Shomrim?


    by Rabbi Dovid Bendory, Rabbinic Director
    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO)

    and Author Alan Korwin, GunLaws.com



    It's no secret that one of the largest blocs of people pressing for so-called “gun control” is the culturally (aka not-so-religious) American Jewish community. This confounds many observers who would expect that Jews, with such a stunning history of oppression and murder by humanity's villains, would cling tenaciously to personal firearms and the ability to protect themselves as the Hebrew Scriptures instruct.

    In reaction to the Holocaust, American Jews adopted the phrase “Never Again!” If actions mean anything, they don't believe it. That's for someone else to do. How do Jews expect to put teeth behind the words “Never Again!” if not with the ability to apply and project personal force when righteous -- and necessary -- for survival?

    Why then do so many American Jews hate guns and fear gun ownership so much?

    Our research identifies ten reasons why these Jews feel the way they do about self defense in general, firearms specifically and your own right to keep and bear arms.


    The adamantly anti-gun-rights Jews are bowing to:

    1. A desire for utopian moral purity

    2. A disproportional incidence of hoplophobia

    3. A quest for power through victimization of peers

    4. A utopian delusion that if guns would just “go away,”
    crime would end and the world would be a peaceful safe place

    5. Self hatred and a wish to be helpless, acting out guilt-based
    behavioral problems that develop in childhood

    6. The Ostrich Syndrome

    7. Garden-variety hypocrisy

    8. Adulterated religion -- Jews In Name Only (JINOs)

    9. Feel-good sophistry

    10. Abject fear that yields irrational behavior



    Despite the modern American Jewish aversion to arms, it has not always been so, and Israeli Jews certainly understand the value of arms. Throughout history, there were Jews who fought in defense of their people and way of life. The Torah is filled with Jews who took up arms in righteous and valiant defensive action. See, for example, The Ten Commandments of Self Defense, (Bendory and JPFO, 2009); or recall, “When Abraham heard that his nephew Lot was taken captive, he took the 318 trained soldiers of his house and pursued the captors,” defeated them, brought back Lot, and exacted retribution with their looted property. (Genesis 14:14)

    Contemporary Jews may have largely acquiesced to their WWII inquisitors, but Biblical Jews resisted their Egyptian slave masters and then fought countless fierce battles against invaders and anti-Semites, such as Amelek, the Philistines and Haman.

    Jews have been assaulted, accosted, and oppressed by nearly every nation and empire in history, including the ancient Greeks, Romans, Persians, Byzantines, Ottomans and of course modern nations like Germany and the USSR.

    Miraculously, Jews have outlasted all those who would annihilate them, typically by using force of arms. Perhaps their liberal modern approach to assault and suffering -- “Don't fight back, it will only make matters worse” -- holds lessons for us. Or perhaps not: it is very hard to witness open-pit graves piled high with emaciated corpses without emotional revulsion. How much worse could matters get?

    “Culturally proper” Jews will not want to openly face the tortured reasoning of their Faustian bargain behind “don't make it worse.” That doesn't make the following reasons any less real or mortally dangerous. And Jews are not alone in relying on these justifications for rejecting the fundamental human right of self defense. Many other gunless people will also recognize their feelings accurately described by what we have found.

    We would not dream of interfering with a free person's freedom to choose and embrace defenselessness or to go gunless. On the other hand, there can be no tolerance for anyone who attempts to force others to behave so dangerously.


    1. A desire for utopian moral purity

    This seems to be the nub. Devin Sper, author of The Future of Israel (SY Publishing, 2004), supported by exhaustive research on the history of the Jewish people, has found that Jews are wont to seek utopian moral purity, and in doing so they reject use of force. By its very nature force corrupts and polarizes. With power and force come allies and adversaries. Taking sides, even righteous sides, conflicts with utopian egalitarianism. As the phrases indicate, these utopian ideals are unattainable.

    Although such a rejection of personal power and righteous use of force seems irrational -- especially for groups repeatedly murdered by governments and threatened with annihilation -- it is a choice they are free to make. Using diverse strategies Jews have survived every attempt to exterminate them while their tormenters have vanished. In Mark Twain's classic words:

    “The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was...”

    We must remind ourselves that Twain wrote this well before the Holocaust. Would his words have been different had he witnessed the government-run atrocities of the 20th century?

    Sper documents the fact that the main Jewish texts, the Torah and Hebrew Scripture, are sometimes violent texts that exhort followers to take up arms in many contexts, and tell stories of vast militia and armed actions by the Jewish tribes. Sper points out that many modern Jews -- especially liberal Jews -- ignore parts of the Torah they don't like, such as this militarism. See, for example, Esther 8:15 - 9:18, where Jews obliterate their enemies; and when asked what to do the next day, Esther says more of the same. And for good measure, impale the ten killed sons of evil vizier Haman on stakes. In place of this Biblical claim to righteous use of force, contemporary American Jews have constructed a plain-vanilla substitute that is mostly froth and dragons.

    Even the annual Passover retelling of the escape from slavery in Egypt glosses over the horrors of slavery and war to the point of a Grimm's fairy tale -- horrifying if you look at it literally and in full detail, but diluted into a story safe for children, complete with drips of sweet wine to soften the gore and savagery.

    Before condemning Jews for hypocrisy in forgetting their history, recognize that many religions similarly gloss over aspects of their sacred texts that don't mix well with their modern sensibilities. How many Biblical literalists cleave to the elements of, say, Leviticus, with its calls for stoning certain women to death (20:27), burning certain daughters (21:9) or instructions on how to manage your slaves (25:45-46)?



    2. A disproportional incidence of hoplophobia

    Hoplophobia, n. Irrational morbid fear of guns (c. 1966, coined by Col. Jeff Cooper, from the Greek hoplites, weapon; see his book Principles of Personal Defense). May cause sweating, faintness, discomfort, rapid pulse, nausea, sleeplessness, nondescript fears, fantasizing, more, at mere thought of guns. Presence of working firearms may cause panic attack, desperate effort at avoidance. Hoplophobe, hoplophobic. http://www.gunlaws.com/GunPhobia.htm

    Dr. Sarah Thompson, M.D., in her ground-breaking essay on the subject, Raging Against Self Defense, pointed out that hoplophobes often use the psychological defense mechanism of projection in dealing with their fear. Unable or unsure of their ability to control their own internal conflicts, they project their conflicts onto people around them. They fear losing control, going berserk, shooting people around them or shooting themselves in a mad, chaotic expression of rage. It's only natural for them to then assume that anyone else with a gun could or would do the same; the occasional madman serves to reinforce their fears.

    This explains at last the perpetual hysteria that proclaims, every time a Second Amendment infringement is lifted: we will suffer shootouts at stop lights, slow waiters murdered on the spot, or Dodge City bloodshed as a result. Every new carry-permit law, the repeal of the National Parks possession ban, the expired Clinton-era rifle bans, lifted restrictions for adult gun carry on campuses -- all were met with the same barrage of irrational fears. It is a knee-jerk mantra loudly shouted and then brazenly promoted by an unethical media every time.

    And the imagined fear? It never manifests. It is but an empty neurotic fantasy. Media corrections are never published, and so the fantasies and lies are repeated and recycled. Shame on those who would forever repeat the same absurd lies, never recant, and refuse to seek help for their neuroses.

    We must show tolerance and understand: Facts mean little to people with morbid irrational fears. The fears just continue. Hoplophobes need treatment and sympathy, not laws infringing on the body politic. Some of what we think of as a political issue -- so-called “gun control” -- is actually a psychiatric condition, a medical problem.

    Hoplophobes need treatment and sympathy,
    not laws infringing on the body politic.

    The hoplophobic condition also manifests itself as a fear that if the afflicted person had a gun, someone would kill them with their own gun. Of course if this had merit, Jews could have killed their assailants with their own guns throughout history.

    Jews and liberals alike appear to suffer from hoplophobia in disproportionate numbers for reasons that beg to be researched. The controversial Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) published by the American Psychiatric Association, now in review for its 5th edition (due May 2013) has yet to recognize or address the widespread phenomenon of gun phobias. We're told by one expert this is not the purpose of that book: irrational fear of spiders, water, even open spaces, yes; terrifying irrational fear of guns, the very bulwark of liberty, no. Coincidentally, the psychiatric profession has an unusually large Jewish contingent, and its founders were disproportionately Jewish.


    3. A quest for power through victimization of peers

    In our culture, victimization accords moral authority and thus power to the victim. Subjugating or convincing a constituency to accept victimization cedes power to those perpetuating this harmful ruse on their peers. This is despicably immoral -- but it is tacitly acceptable and all too commonplace in our victimization culture. Just think of how many “rights” organizations claim moral authority and power through victimization.

    Blacks have been largely convinced by their leaders to avoid guns (rap “music” notwithstanding) leaving them reliant on police who are, historically, often perceived poorly by the black community. Who among American blacks trusts police implicitly? Such trust may be irrational, but no one claims humans act rationally all or even most of the time. The people know instinctively they cannot trust government agents for their safety, yet they are left to wish for such illusory protection.

    A near-perfect parallel exists with respect to Jews. Governments are historically the greatest threat to Jews (or anyone), responsible for horrendous mass-murder campaigns and pogroms throughout history. Murder by government, democide, is by far the greatest killer of innocent human beings. People imbued with the intoxicating power of government authority exterminated 262 million people in the 20th century, according to political scientist R. J. Rummel. Murderous criminals don't hold a candle to the deadly threat government poses to the public.

    Murder by government, democide,
    is by far the greatest killer of innocent human beings,

    responsible for 262 million deaths in the 20th century alone.
    Murderous criminals don't hold a candle to that.

    Yet Jewish leaders -- in Congress of all places (e.g., Charles Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Barney Frank, Frank Lautenberg, Carl Levin, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, others) -- are the anti-rights leaders on the self-defense gun issue. They are the very strongest proponents of relying on government for safety and of destroying the right of the individual to keep and bear arms. Somehow, America's liberal Jews expect the police to protect them, a reliance that has failed the Jews throughout history.

    As you may already know, police are actually free of any legal obligation to protect you, as documented for all 50 states in Dial 911 and Die (Attorney Richard W. Stevens, Mazel Freedom Press, 1999). The U.S. Supreme Court has confirmed this repeatedly, most recently in Castle Rock v. Gonzalez, 545 U.S. 748 (2005).


    4. A utopian delusion that if guns would just “go away,” crime would end and the world would be a peaceful safe place

    This basic liberal tenet of faith has been around since time immemorial, and afflicts Jews in disproportionate numbers. Jews are fond of saying that if guns would just go away, the world would be a better place. They fail to look back in history, to a time before guns existed, and recall the incredible savagery that took place without guns available for protection. Life back then was brutal, and encouraged: “Doom them to destruction: grant them no quarter” (Deuteronomy 7:1-2).

    Our world bristling with arms is a more decent and safe place to live than the ancient world. People blind themselves to this reality, and pop culture -- when it isn't promoting Hollywood-style machine-gun silliness -- enforces the false notion that a total gun ban would bring world peace.

    Our world bristling with arms
    is a more decent and safe place to live
    than the ancient world.


    This utopian “vision” is supposedly supported by Isaiah's prophecy of a Messianic future, when “they shall beat their spears into pruning hooks”, when “the lion shall lie down with the lamb.” Prophetic it may be, but as instructions for living, it's a recipe for death and destruction, and Jews are also instructed otherwise (but often prefer to ignore the inconvenient): “Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, I am strong” (Joel 4:9). Put down your arms in the face of a vicious enemy and you will suffer the fate of the lamb who lies down with the lion.

    America's Jews often hold to a dangerous related myth that violence never solves anything. Like so many platitudes it is appealing, with enormous first-blush power. Yet it is self-evidently preposterous -- any degree of thought spoils the sweet image: Hitler, Hezbollah, Haman and the other hordes are not stopped with peace marches, protest rallies, and clever signs.

    Hitler, Hezbollah, Haman and the other hordes
    are not stopped with peace marches,
    protest rallies, and clever signs.

    Despots are overthrown by force or the credible threat of force. Brutal criminals bent on rape and murder are not held back by intellectual prowess or Messianic visions -- they are held back either by the brutal stopping power of a well-aimed bullet or by caging them when captured. It is the unfortunate reality of this harsh world: countervailing force is the only deterrent for aggression. American Jews, irrationally, reject this. They're free to do so, but they have no legitimate moral authority to drag anyone else into that lethal tar pit with them.

    Many Jews also cling to the notion that “it can't happen here,” which is what many believed even as the Holocaust was taking place. This is ironically contradictory to the simultaneous militance implied by “Never Again!”

    “Deliberate misuse of guns by miscreants
    does not define guns.”

    And finally, some Jews hold to the notion that weapons are unacceptable because violence is unacceptable. The fact that guns save lives, guns stop crime, guns protect you, and guns are the reason Israel still stands, are blacked out of any thought process. They would have you believe (and they falsely believe) that guns are designed for murder. Murder is illegal. Guns are properly designed -- for protection. Killing to protect is legal, moral, just and virtually universally sanctioned. Deliberate misuse of guns by miscreants does not define guns.


    5. Self hatred and a wish to be helpless, acting out guilt-based behavioral problems that develop in childhood

    The founder of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, the late Aaron Zelman, framed this succinctly with many Jews he met. They would express outrage at Aaron's classical approach of arming for safety, peace through strength and deterrence as a means of achieving peace and stability (which is Israel's approach, though he didn't frame it in those terms). They would emphatically reject the idea that all Jews should be educated to arms and know how to handle and shoot guns for their own safety. He could see through their self-righteous bluster and tell them, “You're just a self-hating Jew waiting to sniff the gas.”


    6. The Ostrich Syndrome

    Some people are inherently weak-willed and live without a strong moral compass. They are eager to simplify their lives and avoid uncomfortable situations. Unwilling to face the harsh realities of life, they would prefer to ignore guns and pretend the need for self defense will go away if they pay it no heed. It is irrational, yes, but understandable when you consider the psyche that generates such thinking.

    These people, Jews and Gentiles alike, will say things like, “I don't believe in guns,” as if they don't exist, or as if their purported non-belief makes the subject evaporate and obviates the possibility of encountering a situation in which self defense is necessary. It is foolhardy and dangerous, but an ostrich with its head in the sand probably feels just fine... until it is devoured.


    7. Garden-variety hypocrisy

    While many Jews say they detest guns, they in fact staunchly support guns, so long as the guns are in the hands of “the proper authorities.” On a civil level today, that means the police. So in reality, so-called anti-gun-rights Jews are really very pro-gun-rights, they just want someone else to hold the guns for them. This is not only hypocritical, it is immoral.

    “So-called anti-gun-rights Jews
    are really very pro-gun-rights,
    they just want someone else
    to hold the guns for them.”

    Attorney Jeff Snyder points out, in his globally famous book Nation of Cowards, that expecting other people to risk their lives to save yours cannot be supported in a moral way: “If you believe it is reprehensible to possess the means and will to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault, how can you call upon another to do so for you?... Because that is his job and we pay him to do it? Because your life is of incalculable value, but his is only worth the $30,000 yearly salary we pay him?” He asks: if your life is worth protecting, whose responsibility is it to protect it? The full weight of his arguments repeatedly come back to personal responsibility.



    8. Adulterated religion -- Jews In Name Only (JINOs)

    Arizona-based historian Michael E. Newton, author of The Path to Tyranny (Elephtheria Publishing, 2010), posits that part of the problem rests with Jews who no longer believe in Judaism, and have replaced their previous religion with a popular new one: so-called “social justice.” If a Biblically-based value system no longer drives protection of the G-d-given gift of life, then abandoning the right to self defense poses little moral dilemma. Jews who are only or barely culturally Jewish have little reason to rise up to the standards Jewish Law speaks of explicitly: “If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first” (Talmud, Berakoth 58b).

    “If a man comes to kill you,
    rise early and kill him first”
    (Talmud, Berakoth 58b).

    Newton observes that, “In times of trouble, religious Jews offer prayers to G-d in the hope that He will help. Secular Jews turn to the government instead to protect and defend them. The Bible says, 'Thou shalt not stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor.' Not only can we defend our neighbor from attack, in Torah Law we are commanded to do so. That we must also defend ourselves is so patently obvious in Jewish Law that no defense or justification is given for it.

    “Who is more religious? The secular Jew who believes government police forces will defend them or the religious Jew who trusts in G-d but also believes that G-d gave us the strength, right, and even the commandment to defend ourselves?”

    The entire anti-rights issue on guns may be a tangent to this perhaps larger issue: Why are the nation's Jews predominantly liberal Democrats, leaning heavily toward statism, socialism, progressivism, and nanny-state protection and social order? Why don't they instead gravitate toward human freedom, individual rights and responsibility, and avoidance of the heavy hand of government? Liberal Democrats, in large measure, hate guns and gun owners too, so there would seem to be a degree of go along to get along.

    And what of the Israel Paradox? American Jews by and large vigorously support armed defense of the Jewish state, yet persistently work to disarm the American public. That such positions are self-contradictory and hypocritical never crosses their minds. These conundrums leave us baffled.


    9. Feel-good sophistry

    Feel-good sophistry is rigid attachment to false arguments that have the effect of deceiving. It works for a lot of humanity, and is a component of the Jewish mindset. People attach to ideas and concepts, regardless of or despite any germ of validity, often based on emotion with no factual support. It is irrational and foolish, but people are free to be irrational and foolish. But then they vote and inject themselves into the political arena. In doing so, they force humanity to deal not only with real problems but with imaginary ones as well.


    10. Abject fear that yields irrational behavior

    The wild-eyed desire to “take all the guns away!” ignores the fact that government is the intended agent for such a plan. Such a plan would not “take away” guns at all. It would merely transfer them, giving them all to government (with the stark exception of entire arsenals already thoroughly banned yet in the hands of criminals and enemies of the state).

    “Taking away guns merely transfers them
    to the government we all trust so deeply.”

    In seeking this “take away the guns,” Jews astoundingly disregard the fact that, historically, governments have been the main perpetrators of atrocities against them. They also ignore the fact that in times before guns, when physical protection was more difficult, violence was worse and more horrific than today. Think Genghis Kahn, Julius Caesar, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler, in addition to the obvious Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and a personal favorite, Xena the Warrior Princess (which adds Hollywood's rampant titillating sexification of violence).



    The Shomrim

    Despite these seemingly overwhelming Jewish predilections, within the Jewish community there exists a thin but powerful stream of thought, held by some Jews, who advocate for the fundamental human right to protect one's self, one's loved ones, the community and the fruits of one's labors. As King Solomon said: “There is a time for war, and a time for peace” (Ecclesiastes 3:8).

    These people exist, typically “in the closet” of Jewish thought and behavior, and may be thought of as Shomrim, “The Watchful.” Non-aggressive and usually conservative in their views, they stand as silent and unobserved guardians of their Jewish brethren, without acknowledgment.

    “They stand as silent and unobserved guardians
    of their Jewish brethren, without acknowledgment.”

    Anecdotal evidence indicates that a significant percentage of discreetly armed Shomrim are present in synagogues on a regular basis. Their numbers appear to be increasing, as gun ownership, marksmanship practice, the shooting sports and gun-safety training increases nationwide across all demographics. Atrocities like the recent al-Qaida-inspired murder of Jews in France encourage more Jews to rethink personal preparedness.

    Given the severe threats Jews face in the modern world, isn't it time for Jews to rethink the anti-rights posture so many have adopted toward the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms?

    While American Jews may not be required to learn about arms as civilians (unlike their Israeli cousins), it's corrupt for them to attempt to force other law-abiding adults to suffer a government ban on the tools of self defense. And it's time for the Shomrim to come out of the closet and teach their brethren about the cold, harsh reality of the world in which we live, and the tools that allow it to be tamed. “For he does not rest nor does he sleep, the Guardian of Israel” (Psalm 121).

    “I imagine some of this research will be attacked as anti-Semitic,
    a frightful charge, possible whenever you discuss Judaism.
    Which statements exactly, I would ask, are anti-Semitic?
    I can find none.” J.T.


    ###



    Rabbi Dovid Bendory is the Rabbinic Director of
    Jews for the Preservation of Gun Ownership and a certified firearms instructor.

    Alan Korwin, author of nine books on gun law,
    is the publisher at Bloomfield Press and runs the national directory website, GunLaws.com.



    Support the important work of
    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
    “America's most aggressive defender of gun rights.”
    Contact: JPFO.org o jpfo@jpfo.org o 262-673-9745

    Alan Korwin has been involved in the gun-rights struggle
    for more than two decades and can be reached at
    GunLaws.com
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Campaign Veteran G22shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi Dovid Bendory, Rabbinic Director, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) and Author Alan Korwin, GunLaws.com
    It's no secret that one of the largest blocs of people pressing for so-called “gun control” is the culturally (aka not-so-religious) American Jewish community.
    Really? Do we know this to be true, that American Jews make up one of the largest groups in support of gun control?

    What's the real agenda of the authors?
    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. O'Rourke; The Liberty Manifesto
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

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    WOW.......paranoid much? I'm atheist and I even find this offensive!

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    Regular Member Ballistic Otters's Avatar
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    I'm an atheist, too, Goingdef, and I find it offensive. I'm also an (ethnic) Jew. I don't think the nonreligious Jews are a problem at all. I was brought up being taught that disarming the population, particularly the Jewish population, was a big step towards the Holocaust. Social justice is something I love, as this article predicts, but that does not mean I am in favor of gun control. Quite to the contrary, gun ownership needs to be high to truly achieve the goals of legitimate social justice.

    "The secular Jew who believes government police forces will defend them..." is not something I have ever encountered. Whether or not it's justified, a lot of Jews have a belief that our ethnic and religious history is so fraught with terror and persecution that we have to fight, tear, and grab for everything we need. I picked up firearms as a hobby, and then a political ideology, *because* I'm Jewish. Israel didn't defeat three countries in six days without firearms.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbi Dovid Bendory, Rabbinic Director, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) and Author Alan Korwin, GunLaws.com
    It's no secret that one of the largest blocs of people pressing for so-called “gun control” is the culturally (aka not-so-religious) American Jewish community.



    Really? Do we know this to be true, that American Jews make up one of the largest groups in support of gun control?
    Quote Originally Posted by G22shooter View Post
    Really? Do we know this to be true, that American Jews make up one of the largest groups in support of gun control?

    What's the real agenda of the authors?
    Have any of you bothered to look at the bona fides of these two individuals? Have any of you bothered to check their published material to see how true, or not true, it might be? Have any of you bothered to review the history of American Jews' involvement in the arming of Zionists before the formation of the State of Israel, or the arming of the State of Israel since 1948? (And remember, Israel is not the USA - how an American feels about Israel may not be the same as how they feel about the USA.)

    The anti-gun/disarmament phenomenon amongst American Jews (secular and religious) is rather well researched and documented.

    I disagree (vehemently in some parts) with some of the assertions being made. But that does not mean that their conclusions are neither groundless nor without support.

    ETA - If you have something other than your feelings ("I find this offensive" "Paranoid much?") to support your position I'd like to look at it. But so far I'm seeing a great shortage of fact to support your feelings.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 05-13-2012 at 12:42 PM.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    ....When I look at the biggest anti-gun politicians in America a very very high percentage of them are jewish....
    Actually, when you do the math, this is not accurate, if you are defining "a very high percentage" as more than about 10%.

    But I will support an assertion that some of the most vociferous, and some of the ones putting (large amounts of) their own money into anti-gun activities, are Jewish.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    JFPO's as an organization, is quite a vocal advocate of firearms ownership and a read of Rabbi Bendory & Alan Korwin's paper shows quite a lot of viable research went into their white paper. As the paper points out 'the watchful' are becoming more and more prolific in their numbers.

    my only complaint is the lack of quantifiable numbers verses comments such as 'largest blocs of people', 'many observers', 'anecdotal evidence indicates that a significant percentage', etc. I would have appreciated stats to put their information into viable numbers per se.

    wabbit

    ps: i missed the comments about being anti-christian or any of the 'liberal' labels mentioned by poster CA Patroit when i read the white paper or were those mentioned as personal bias CA?
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 05-13-2012 at 01:43 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Regular Member Ballistic Otters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post


    ETA - If you have something other than your feelings ("I find this offensive" "Paranoid much?") to support your position I'd like to look at it. But so far I'm seeing a great shortage of fact to support your feelings.
    I can't speak for the other guy, but that was just a side note for my post. None of us seemed to be arguing against the statistical probability of this post being accurate. We were sharing our feelings and experiences. What's wrong with that? If we had made a thesis and tried to defend it with our feelings, that would be cause for reprisal. But none of us were doing that. No reason to accuse us of anything, I'm sure we all understand how to formulate an argument critically. We just weren't arguing.

    I think G22 was asking some good questions, and I think you might have overreacted to them, as well as Goingdef and myself discussing, not empirically, our feelings on a personal topic. Not intending to start a fight here, but I think that was a little too critical for some comments that weren't claiming to be objective arguments.

    (I'm not referencing your critique of CA Patriot here; that's all you. Just the other guys and myself.)
    Last edited by Ballistic Otters; 05-13-2012 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    BO, et al.,: you know i was about to grace your subjective, biased based feeling type comments w/a reply and decided discretion is the better part of valor so i shall refrain...

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 05-13-2012 at 02:24 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    I in no way was trying to offend anyone I just personally feel that religion is the cause of a ton of major problems/arguments in the world and sadly not so much good, but I don't see the church showing up at my door demanding I hand over all weapons under gov order, granted there are tons of papers from the churches as well as private groups that do or don't support firearms, but the church and there beliefs are the last of my worry's, ATM I have a little more concern on the economy, jobs and moral decline! I'm not so much sitting around clutching my gun's cursing the jews because there coming first to try to take them away, I just think that's a paranoid way of thinking. There are tons of people in this country that think only police should carry weapons but I'm not writing papers on them singling them out and publishing them to the web, This country is made of FREE people there are tens of thousands of guns in this country now does anyone really think ANY group is "coming" to take away there guns? If so what do think the outcome will be? I for one think this is an impossible goal! The goal to disarm this country has been going on for years and it won't stop but I will not be part of singling out one group of people and pointing the blame at them for being the sole cause for this issue. To do that is just wrong!

  11. #11
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Goingdef did you even read this JPFO sponsored white paper, written by a two Jewish authors, one a scholar and one a noted author who advocates gun ownership, and IMHO is strictly directed to American's Jewish population & it's leaders to get over their Hoplophobia mentality and quit trying to regulate firearm use in American.

    "...it's corrupt for them to attempt to force other law-abiding adults to suffer a government ban on the tools of self defense. And it's time for the Shomrim to come out of the closet and teach their brethren about the cold, harsh reality of the world in which we live, and the tools that allow it to be tamed."

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 05-13-2012 at 04:03 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Ballistic Otters's Avatar
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    Well, hold on, Wabbit. I think Goingdef is onto something here.

    Maybe this article is symptomatic of the problem with the pro-gun culture. We're a pretty fractured group in a lot of ways. Liberals and conservatives are a pretty big split, but this is an issue that transcends political affiliation. It could also transcend religion and ethnic heritage. We shouldn't need to use religion to get citizens to arm themselves. What that creates is a group that sees weapons as the arm of their religious beliefs, rather than a tool. There are better reasons to arm ourselves, and while this information is good to have, and the authors' opinions are definitely worth considering, it may not entirely be the most healthy mentality for people to hold.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I have total sympathy with JPFO. They have been speaking "truth to power" in a direct, blunt, and unapologetic manner for DECADES, and although they certainly are not in the business of "making friends", they--like me--put a pretty large premium on the truth, and exposing the hypocrisy and duplicity of anti-gun political figures.

    In Maryland, some of the most brazenly hypocritical politicians on the subject of "gun control" are from groups who you would THINK would be against such a racist, classist, oligarchical policy. "Gun Control" in Maryland has historically been used to keep minorities "on the plantation" and through disarmament, keep these communities in a perpetual state of victimhood to crime and dependence on the State for their perceived "safety".

    Frank Conoway--the current Clerk fo the Circuit Court in Baltimore--was one of the authors and primary "movers and shakers" behind getting the Maryand "gun control" laws put in placae in 1972. He has said in several interviews that he thinks that the guns are to blame for the crime in Baltimore (not the criminals, thugs, and miscreants BEHIND the guns). He has said publicaly that he thinks that most black folks can't be trusted to own firearms. And yet Frank Conoway is a black man, and has one of those SUPER-RARE "unrestricted" MD carry permits...

    And of course, there is Delegate Brian Frosh--a well-known Jewish politician from MoCo who is one of the loudest voices for "gun control" in Maryland. JPFO has attacked him before on the bizarre stance of a Jew being FOR gun control, and a few of their campaigns against Frosh have made the National media when the media demonized them as "anti-semitic", DESPITE the fact that these "anti-semitic" ads were created by religious, observant Jews--several of who were Rabbis.

    Oh, and BTW, Frosh has a MD Carry permit too...

    JPFO is not in the business to make friends in Annapolis, or to toe the liberal media party line, or to cow-tow to political correctness. They are in the business of DEFENDING 2A Rights, and exposing the lies, duplicity, racism and classism of anti-gun politicians.

    And although some may fault them on their tactics or their language, it is VERY difficult to fault JPFO on the CONTENT of their messages, because they speak the truth.

    If speaking the truth ever becomes "hate speech", then perhaps it's time to "hit the reset button" on our society...

    All these things said, Im not sure I understand the JPFO's position on the Shomrim, or why they even bring up this group in this context. Perhaps it is because of the two members who recently were in the MD media for their attack on a young black teenager. I can't speak to the entire group, but these two young men were 1) not acting in self-defense as the courts have determined, and 2) are nothing more than neo-brownshirted JBTs hiding behind the mask of Judaism. It became obvious in this Baltimore case that these two Shomrim thugs are racists, and that they attacked this black youth because they thought--in their own words--that "he didn't belong in that neighborhood".

    I'm all for "neighborhood watches". I'm all for people using reasonable force to defend themselves.

    But I DO NOT support vigilantes who prowl the streets looking for victims to fulfill their own racist, classist desire to rough up someone who they view as being of an "inferior type".

    Eliyahu Werdesheim, got EXACTLY what he deserved in the Courts. He should count himself lucky that he didn't get charged with "assault with a deadly weapon" or "attempted murder"--seeing as he used to be a member of the IDF Special Forces, and is well-trained in hand-to-hand combat. I find it particularly interesting that Werdesheim's previous service in a foreign military's elite unit did not get more airtime in the media...

    Shomrim may be a good organization--I can't say one way or another, because I don't know much about them. But if the individuals involved in this recent case are any indication of prevailing attitudes in Shomrim-Baltimore, then I think that JPFO might do well to distance themselves from them...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-13-2012 at 05:10 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran G22shooter's Avatar
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    I apologize if my questions offended anyone. I posed the questions because I am immediately skeptical any time someone starts an argument with a statement something along the lines of "everybody knows" or "anyone can plainly see", etc. Putting that type of statement to use against another group of people is the very definition of a "straw man argument".

    For the two authors of the white paper, it doesn't seem very intelligent to work so hard at research and writing the paper without first substantiating the claim before proceeding with their counterclaim/argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. O'Rourke; The Liberty Manifesto
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

  15. #15
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Dreamer, after another read, i think the crux of this JPFO white paper was to advise the Jewish community 'the watchers' are already trained and comfortable w/firearms and even sit quietly in local synagogues w/o drawing attention to themselves to defend the Jewish community if the need arises, e.g., to prevent what occurred recently in France. The authors are making a point to other prominent U.S. Jewish leaders not inflict their Hoplophobia biases on America.

    I have enjoyed JPFO's informative and straight forward documents for quite a while now.

    wabbit

    PS: unfortunately i am unaware of the incident(s) in MD you mentioned.

    pps: no reason to apologize, as you have not offended me per se as i enjoy a good 'discussion' as much as the next member, however, like skidmark stated...lets discuss with something other than your 'feelings' (sorry skidmark for paraphasing out of context)
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    PS: unfortunately i am unaware of the incident(s) in MD you mentioned.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...64ccf26488a44e


    Neither of these young men were carrying a firearm. The "weapon" they were originally charged with using against the victim was a portable 2-way radio that they beat him in the head with...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-13-2012 at 07:17 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistic Otters View Post
    Well, hold on, Wabbit. I think Goingdef is onto something here.

    Maybe this article is symptomatic of the problem with the pro-gun culture. We're a pretty fractured group in a lot of ways. Liberals and conservatives are a pretty big split, but this is an issue that transcends political affiliation. It could also transcend religion and ethnic heritage. We shouldn't need to use religion to get citizens to arm themselves. What that creates is a group that sees weapons as the arm of their religious beliefs, rather than a tool. There are better reasons to arm ourselves, and while this information is good to have, and the authors' opinions are definitely worth considering, it may not entirely be the most healthy mentality for people to hold.
    Thank you
    that's pretty much what was on my mind!

    I just don't think it's right to lump a religion into a mass, I just keep thinking back to the jewish fellow applying for his ccw at the same time as me and my wife, that's why this post seems motivated on hate/bashing to me, I suppose I could do some research and say the writers of the paper are white/black/spanish instead of jewish and "that" group wants to take away our guns! so to me to say "jews" only is just wrong! I would say officials,people in positions of power,but to sum it up to jews hate guns is just sounds ignorant! It's things like this post that make most gun owners look like paranoid individuals to non gun owners and one of the reasons gun control even comes up! a gun is to protect oneself and family, and this me myself and I attitude I see so much of in the firearms community is why so many non gun owners are nervous, I carry a full size custom stainless beretta(rather intimidating looking) but when ever I'm around people I make sure they don't get the "I will shoot whom ever I need to in order to survive" impression and engage them in conversation by the time we are done talking they to are ready to look into arming themselves because an armed community is a safe community and it's your right! plus there so fun to shoot! but this thread should be deleted if I where a jewish person looking to arm myself and ran across this thread while searching for info I would have zero want to be any part of this on-line community or the people that frequent it and that would be a shame, this forum has a great deal of of very good information and very smart people let's not make ourselves look so childish as to even entertain the notion of a few peoples theory's or words that even if they are jewish writers so what self hating jews! what's new there are many people of so many backgrounds that practice self hate let's not feed them!

    ps my only real problem with the thread is that it's based on a religion it might as well be based on race at that point, I just feel there are way to many people of so many backgrounds that feel one way or another that to focus on one is just silly.
    Last edited by Goingdef; 05-13-2012 at 07:48 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    hey guys one of my fascinations of life was, 'why did so many Jews walk into the gas chambers and didn't fight back. thousands of Jews to the few that herded them seemed to me to be lopsided. it wasn't till in the last couple of years that i heard of the Jewish resistant of the Nazi genocide. it has seemed to me that there is a lot of Jews (especially in the north east) in the antis , or hopolophobies.

    nothing about promoting religion. it's just a question of why.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  19. #19
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    papa bear, sorry but am afraid that fasination shall go unfulfilled by this poster as it has no bearing to the discussion at hand and is, IMHO, not germane to this forum's mandate.

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 05-13-2012 at 10:44 PM.
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    For those of you unfamiliar with the candor and solid-brass-brass-ballsiness that JPFO displays in their media approach, check out their "Free Flyers" page. This is what gets them in trouble all the time--for telling the TRUTH...

    http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/freebies.htm
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran G22shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    hey guys one of my fascinations of life was, 'why did so many Jews walk into the gas chambers and didn't fight back. thousands of Jews to the few that herded them seemed to me to be lopsided. it wasn't till in the last couple of years that i heard of the Jewish resistant of the Nazi genocide. it has seemed to me that there is a lot of Jews (especially in the north east) in the antis , or hopolophobies.

    nothing about promoting religion. it's just a question of why.
    papa bear -- since OCDO is so strict about forum content, you might want to move this topic to www.gunfolks.com. The owner is from SC and runs a relatively loose, light-hearted and enjoyable forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. O'Rourke; The Liberty Manifesto
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I think this thread has pretty much would itself down already. So my comments are more to clarify than to provoke further discussion.

    JPFO and Mr. Korwin have an admitted agenda regarding American Judaism and gun control. It is difficult to pin American Judaism down as a single entity - in some ways they are more diverse and splintered than any other religion, and my limited experience is that the more orthodox they claim to be the more splintered they are. (I could be wrong.) But the point is that the popular perception is that American Judaism is in favor of gun control. JPFO, given the personal and philosophical history of both its founder and current head, has, to use a crude descriptive phrase, a "hard on" for the apparent hypocracy that stance presents. Yes, there is an awful lot that stands behind the notion of gun control expressed by American Judaism and this is not the place to delve into it.

    Their white paper was not intended, as far as I can determine, to be a scholarly exposition nor a detailed report of research. It was, as far as I can determine, agit-propoganda. It seems to have achieved it's goal.

    My point was that, like those who are being accused of supporting gun control for what appear to be irrational reasons, some were responding on an emotional ("feelings") level. While one can and may "feel offended" there is no way I know of for someone to actually "offend" another person. The antis have regularly put forward the notion that they have a "right" to not be offended. For me that creates a special connotation to the use of the term.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  23. #23
    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    Actually I don't care about this posting and find it distasteful. Someone Anti-Gun is someone I don't like, don't care what religion, no religion, political affiliation or what, they are not my friend and I will work against them.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Shalom aleichem... unless you threaten me

    The "American Jews" that I have known are by-and-large essentially peaceful people. I believe (don't quote me on this, because I have no stats to back me up - it's just my belief) that the majority of American Jews are either survivors who escaped Nazi Germany, the pogroms of Russia, or they are the descendants of holocaust survivors. Given their history since biblical times, I find their aversion to being surrounded by armed people understandable, even though I don't agree with it. There are also many American Jews who (as do their brethren in Israel) see the possession and bearing of arms as a birthright, just as there are many Americans of all religious and ethnic backgrounds who wish to eliminate the Second Amendment, including the delusional native-born Americans. The American Jew seems to be less "militant" (for lack of a better word) than the Israeli Jew. Is there a question in anyone's mind that the Israeli's are among the most peaceful of people, yet they are some of the fiercest warriors on Earth when provoked? What then, is the difference between the Israeli and the American Jew? The American Jew is the product of a faith that has in some ways been culturally "watered-down", perhaps in an effort to not be summarily rejected by the "goyim" (that's those of us who are not Jewish - the "gentiles"). The American Jew has also not lived in a country that has been under frequent attack since 1948, and perhaps has a diminished "survival instinct".

    Most Jews, even the young ones, are familiar with the story of Masada and the Zealots. That is their history, and that was when their nation was taken from them by the Romans. I believe that most American Jews support 2A - especially those of the JPFO. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 05-14-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    papa bear, sorry but am afraid that fasination shall go unfulfilled by this poster as it has no bearing to the discussion at hand and is, IMHO, not germane to this forum's mandate.

    wabbit
    Quote Originally Posted by G22shooter View Post
    papa bear -- since OCDO is so strict about forum content, you might want to move this topic to www.gunfolks.com. The owner is from SC and runs a relatively loose, light-hearted and enjoyable forum.
    i don't understand the misgivings. as a forum, the OCDO is (to my understanding) to promote gun carry. if that is the case, then you should understand the mentality of those that oppose it. the anti's that oppose may not be the majority of any given group , but they might be the squeaky minority of a group. please, if you have anything to contribute do continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    For those of you unfamiliar with the candor and solid-brass-brass-ballsiness that JPFO displays in their media approach, check out their "Free Flyers" page. This is what gets them in trouble all the time--for telling the TRUTH...

    http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/freebies.htm
    good one DREAMER

    BTW you may also want to check out their videos, "no guns for Jews" and "no gun for African Americanes"
    Last edited by papa bear; 05-14-2012 at 03:45 PM.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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