King County District Court-Renton May 3rd 2012

I do have a partial recording of this interaction. I will post it as soon as possible.

On the 3rd of May I went to the Renton location for King County District Court for a traffic infraction. I won.

So as I went in through the front door there was the typical "No Firearms per RCW 9.41.300." My wife went through the metal detector (staffed by a civilian) with no issues. There was a sheriff deputy seated behind him and he appeared to be watching T.V.
The civilian told me to go on through the metal detector. Apparently he couldn't see the full sized 1911 on my hip as well as the second mag on my front. I informed hin I had to check in my firearm.
The deputy leapt up and came over saying, "Yep."
Civi says, "Do you have a permit?"
Me, "You don't need a permit to open carry in the state of Washington."
Civi looks at deputy who says, "Uhhh, yeah." Almost like he wasn't sure.
Deputy comes around to me. "Ok, just need to see your ID."
Me, "No, sir. You don't."
Deputy surprised, "Yes you do. I have to make sure you are who you say."
Me, "No, the RCW is very clear about courthouse procedure. It doesn't say anything about ID."
Deputy, "Would you step out here for me?" He opens the inner door to the sallyport (don't know what else to call it) and steps into it. I follow him. Later I realized he had succesfully led me away from witnesses. Blast!
Deputy, "I need to see your ID."
Me, "No you don't."
This continues for a minute.
Me, "You can look at the RCW." I keep it saved on my phone.
Deputy, "I'm not gonna look it up!"
He tells me he is going back in to call his supervisor for clarification.
While he is on the phone with his supervisor I pull out my phone and turn on the recorder. I give a brief description on what is going on. While waiting I can hear the deputy on the phone. You can vaguely hear the deputy.
Deputy on phone, "Yeah, I have a guy down here with a gun. He doesn't want to show me ID and he doesn't have a permit."
I never said I didn't have a permit. I do have one.
Deputy, " Uh huh, ok."
The deputy comes out. "Yeah, you gotta identify yourself......." He goes on and keeps interupting me. He tells me to get a lawyer. He says because it is a county building I am required by law to show ID and refuses again to check law. He tells me to sue him.
At this point I have three (3) minutes till my appearance so I pull out my ID. I hold it up to show him and tries to take it. I maintain my control over the ID. He rips it from my hand saying,
"I don't know why you're being so obstinate!"
Me, "Because it's not required by law to show you ID."
At this point I checked in my firearm. I sked the deputy what his name was. He said Deputy Berger and spelled it. I told the civi to have a good one. I shut the recorder off and went in the courtroom.
When I came out to reclaim my firearm I was looking at the only two stationary lockboxes.
Me, "What do you do if more than two people come in?"
Deputy, "They can't come in."
Me, "Oh, really? Just like that?"
Deputy, "Yep."
Unfortunately I wasn't recording for the second interaction. (Stupid!)


So, I'm working on getting the recording converted so I can provide a link to youtube.
Obviously I could have handled this better. This was my first interaction. I wanted to put this up earlier but I wanted to devote the necessary time to type this up for you. I will be contacting the King County Sheriff's Office tomorrow.
Please feel free to criticize/question. This is for my learning experience and others after all.

Edit: I have the recording available. Watch out if you have headphones. At the end all the noise is me putting all the stuff from my pockets on top of my phone. Oops. At 1:55 you can hear him speaking to his supervisor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V47ezPh9ZZE&feature=youtu.be

He rips it from my hand saying,
"I don't know why you're being so obstinate!"

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I would have said "Because you are breaking the law!"

jeeper1 said:

I would have said "Because you are breaking the law!"

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Deputy McAurthor (sp) told me he don't care about the law its their procedure.

Keep up the fight Decklin, I ended up arrested for standing up to them for this, I am working on this too, it drives me bonkers that I show up to court for legal matters or because they said I broke the law, yet they break the law while I am there with impunity.

officer Berger asked you to sue?? oblige him

The 20/20 program was "designed" for it

I love this site. Reading all the crap you guys are willing to go through just "Because" is great. Carrying concealed is so much easier, and frankly simply showing ID is so much easier. I'll live through you guys and have fun reading this stuff.:banana:

Backpacker Joe said:

I love this site. Reading all the crap you guys are willing to go through just "Because" is great. Carrying concealed is so much easier, and frankly simply showing ID is so much easier. I'll live through you guys and have fun reading this stuff.:banana:

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I guess you need a "Welcome to OCDO" so there it is. We are glad that you enjoy the site so much.

Folks (in several states) are willing to "go through" what we do not "just because" but because we know that "A right unexercised is a right lost" and that the government and its agents must be held to be as accountable to the law as the rest of the citizens are.

While you may not be aware of the effort, time, money and personal sacrifice expended in securing the rights that exist, getting the laws presently on the books passed, and working to make sure that some petty tyrant or jack-booted thug does not get away with imposing their opinions instead of following at least the letter, if not the spirit, of the law, many others are because they either, like you, follow(ed) what is reported and discussed here or became the "center of attention" in activities to accomplish these goals.

I'm glad to know tha you consider carrying concealed so much easier. I hope you continue to carry. But "simply showing ID is so much easier" is going to become a problem for everyone else if you continue with that attitude. The 4th Amendment and the case law regarding it has put limits on what, when, where, why and how the government and its minions are allowed to search you. Every time you let one of the government's minions get away with violating the protections set up you are chipping away at the rights and protections of all of us. While I may not be a citizen of the State of Washington I can attest that what happens there has influence on what happens in the state I live in. I am not pleased to see someone allowing Washington State minions violate the law and Constitutional rights because the Commonwealth of Virginia minions will say "If they can get away with it we can, too." We have enough trouble keeping our minions in line without outside encouragement to violate our rights.

stay safe.

Thank you, I think.

Yes I carry daily. I carry concealed (in urban areas) because I dont want other people to know I have a gun. While I dont disagree with your points, frankly you're swimming uphill without a paddle and towing the empire state building if you think you're going to change anything on a societal level! This once great nation is and has been slowly moving left politically since the mid 60's. Sure there has been a couple hick ups that allowed us to move right again, but not enough. Look who our current president is?!???!??!?!??!?!?!?!

Good luck, and I certainly respect your passion.

Backpacker Joe said:

Thank you, I think.

Yes I carry daily. I carry concealed (in urban areas) because I dont want other people to know I have a gun. While I dont disagree with your points, frankly you're swimming uphill without a paddle and towing the empire state building if you think you're going to change anything on a societal level! This once great nation is and has been slowly moving left politically since the mid 60's. Sure there has been a couple hick ups that allowed us to move right again, but not enough. Look who our current president is?!???!??!?!??!?!?!?!

Good luck, and I certainly respect your passion.

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A couple of years ago a young man named Chris carried his pistol and AR in the open to an Obama healthcare event. He was interviewed by the local media and nothing happened. The secret service, the local LEO all knew about it. Nine months later, the state in which Chris exercised his rights has Constitutional Carry.

Last year, after several years, and the open carry crowd predominately, (Because there was no other legal way to carry) Wisconsin finally signed a new law allowing concealed carry.

Not only have we been changing things, we are doing an extraordinary job in doing so. Actually in the past several years, gun rights (Thanks SAF) has been expanding and not contracting.

Let's not forget all of the municipalities that had old laws that were rendered unlawful by state preemption. Many members here have gone to council meetings, or gone through lawsuits, etc. and dug their feet in and fought for the rights we choose to exercise.

I'll tell you that I carry concealed most of the time due the the nature of my work, however that does not render me incapable of upholding my right to open carry when I am away from work, and of the mind to do so. Carry how you choose. But be thankful there are those who choose to pave this road for you.

I have no problem with those who "take the easy way" your choice , but................. when you pander to the anti gunners, be them LEO or the little old lady in the park, you make it more difficult for those of us who do stand up for their rights. It starts with being hassled by the "jackbooted thug" who is offended by your weapon (and it's challenge to his authority). Then it quickly escalates to, "If they can do it to them in WA we can do it in VA". Then, "We will just do it to the whole country". Acquiesce, back down, take the easy way. No, not me. Citizenship is a Verb in my family. I will stand up for my rights and those of the people around me. I will not be intimidated by those who attempt to govern me. That is why there is a Second amendment.


end rant

Backpacker Joe said:

I love this site. Reading all the crap you guys are willing to go through just "Because" is great. Carrying concealed is so much easier, and frankly simply showing ID is so much easier. I'll live through you guys and have fun reading this stuff.:banana:

Click to expand...

"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know". enjoy your bland diet!!!!!

MSG Laigaie said:

I have no problem with those who "take the easy way" your choice , but................. when you pander to the anti gunners, be them LEO or the little old lady in the park, you make it more difficult for those of us who do stand up for their rights. It starts with being hassled by the "jackbooted thug" who is offended by your weapon (and it's challenge to his authority). Then it quickly escalates to, "If they can do it to them in WA we can do it in VA". Then, "We will just do it to the whole country". Acquiesce, back down, take the easy way. No, not me. Citizenship is a Verb in my family. I will stand up for my rights and those of the people around me. I will not be intimidated by those who attempt to govern me. That is why there is a Second amendment.


end rant

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Well said, + 1

skidmark said:

I guess you need a "Welcome to OCDO" so there it is. We are glad that you enjoy the site so much.

Folks (in several states) are willing to "go through" what we do not "just because" but because we know that "A right unexercised is a right lost" and that the government and its agents must be held to be as accountable to the law as the rest of the citizens are.

While you may not be aware of the effort, time, money and personal sacrifice expended in securing the rights that exist, getting the laws presently on the books passed, and working to make sure that some petty tyrant or jack-booted thug does not get away with imposing their opinions instead of following at least the letter, if not the spirit, of the law, many others are because they either, like you, follow(ed) what is reported and discussed here or became the "center of attention" in activities to accomplish these goals.

I'm glad to know tha you consider carrying concealed so much easier. I hope you continue to carry. But "simply showing ID is so much easier" is going to become a problem for everyone else if you continue with that attitude. The 4th Amendment and the case law regarding it has put limits on what, when, where, why and how the government and its minions are allowed to search you. Every time you let one of the government's minions get away with violating the protections set up you are chipping away at the rights and protections of all of us. While I may not be a citizen of the State of Washington I can attest that what happens there has influence on what happens in the state I live in. I am not pleased to see someone allowing Washington State minions violate the law and Constitutional rights because the Commonwealth of Virginia minions will say "If they can get away with it we can, too." We have enough trouble keeping our minions in line without outside encouragement to violate our rights.

stay safe.

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Well put Skidmark! I especially like your last few lines!

MSG Laigaie said:

I have no problem with those who "take the easy way" your choice , but................. when you pander to the anti gunners, be them LEO or the little old lady in the park, you make it more difficult for those of us who do stand up for their rights. It starts with being hassled by the "jackbooted thug" who is offended by your weapon (and it's challenge to his authority). Then it quickly escalates to, "If they can do it to them in WA we can do it in VA". Then, "We will just do it to the whole country". Acquiesce, back down, take the easy way. No, not me. Citizenship is a Verb in my family. I will stand up for my rights and those of the people around me. I will not be intimidated by those who attempt to govern me. That is why there is a Second amendment.

+1 we need to be ever vigilant!

end rant

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Orphan said:

"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know". enjoy your bland diet!!!!!

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Yes it does! +1 Well said!

Backpacker Joe said:

I love this site. Reading all the crap you guys are willing to go through just "Because" is great. Carrying concealed is so much easier, and frankly simply showing ID is so much easier. I'll live through you guys and have fun reading this stuff.:banana:

Click to expand...

I don't know about you, but our rights are far too important to simply give them up for a little convenience. Governments throughout history will do what their citizenry will let them get away with. The founding fathers knew that, so that is why they set up our government the way they did. And even they knew that what they created wouldn't last if the citizens of this country became lax in ensuring that those rights are not only protected by law, but respected by those enforcing the law. I encourage you to keep carrying - but consider this, to simply carry a firearm under a jacket without a government approved permission slip is illegal - should it be illegal to exercise something guaranteed to us under the Constitution?

Many states are going forward in expanding their gun rights. Even Illinois I believe is considering a concealed carry bill - though Chicago is doing everything possible to stonewall it. Several states are considering or have considered Constitutional Carry. Oklahoma - a state that has long banned Open Carry is on the verge of legalizing it. Even Maryland is being pushed to reconsider its stance on concealed carry. Only CA is backpedaling, but they too will be persuaded by the courts to reconsider their stances as well.

decklin said:

[Berger,] "I don't know why you're being so obstinate!"
Me, "Because it's not required by law to show you ID."
At this point I checked in my firearm. I asked the deputy what his name was. He said Deputy Berger and spelled it.

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If it were I, I'd file a complaint with the sheriff's office against him for violation of my constitutional rights (illegal search of wallet, illegal seizure of driver's license, criminal assault by seizing the license, robbery by seizing the license). I'd also cc the ACLU (although, IMO, they're not likely to do anything unless you are a minority).