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Thread: Share your wisdom with me!

  1. #1
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Share your wisdom with me!

    I am new to OC and have SOOOOO much to learn. I have allready gotten some very useful info from a few people. So if anyone has any advise of any kind I would love to hear it. Sometimes asking questions is not the best way to learn so hopefully everyone can bring up something that I may not have thought to ask and would need to know. So please if you dissagree with some one about something please keep the back and fourth to a mininum if you can. Thanks for the help in advanced.

  2. #2
    Regular Member derhammer's Avatar
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    Most important thing is to know exactly what the law says about carrying in your state so you can know precisely what your rights are when stopped by the police, and then don't give them an INCH. It should go something like this:

    Officer: Just a minute there.

    You: Yes, officer?

    Officer: You got a permit for that gun?

    You: I don't need a permit, it's open carry (that is true most places, but check local law). Am I being detained right now, officer?

    If the officer says "no," say "okay, have a nice day!" and walk! If you're not being detained, you have every right to leave, and there is no reason to stand there any longer than you have to. That only opens doors for your rights to be violated.

    If he says "yes," ask him for his RAS - that stands for Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. They have to have a reason for stopping you. They must suspect that you have either committed a crime or are about to do so, in which case, if they can tell you why, you do need to give them your ID, but if they don't have a reasonable suspicion that you may have committed or are about to commit a crime with they can articulate to you coherently, you don't need to do a damn thing. If they give you some BS after the RAS question, just tell them it's not RAS that you've committed or are about to commit a crime and repeat your question about being detained.

    This is what I've learned in my travels here, but I have not open carried before (soon, hopefully), so the specifics of this should be left up to those who have gone through it. However, you can find YouTube videos of cop encounters (which are pretty addicting to watch actually) with OCers. The bottom line is, don't give them one single inch unless the laws says you have to.

    Have fun!

    -derhammer
    Last edited by derhammer; 05-14-2012 at 01:08 PM.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Also, challenging the unlawful orders of the police forcefully is quite ill-advised; they are far easier to defeat in court than in the street.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Consider a move to NE Wyoming where we have few "cops" and nobody at all will challenge you or, probably, even notice if you open carry. Or carry concealed, for that matter. As long as you don't start anything and keep your head, nobody here is going to say much more than, "Oh, that's a nice gun."
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Tanner, Tanner, Tanner. Didn't you learn anything in the Virginia forum?

    We (all of us here at OCDO, if I can be so bold as to presume to speak for everyone) would love to share our wisdom with you. But it is not a bucket of "stuff" that we can just pour into your head. And some of the "stuff" in another state will get you locked up or shot in Virginia, unless it is the "stuff" that they in other states have to deal with but Virginians don't.

    You met a few of us last week at our Saturday Breakfast. The offer was made to try and answer your specific questions, or at least point you towards where and how to find the answer(s) yourself. If we (OK, some of us) had any feelings they might be hurt by you coming here with this post.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Moved to the Virginia sub-forum as laws are state specific.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Moved to the Virginia sub-forum as laws are state specific.
    Boo! Hiss! I was hoping for more fun.

    But I understand why you did it.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  8. #8
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Sorry if I hurt your feelings not my intent at all. So far this has been the best place to learn about OC. What I lack in experience I make up for with enthusiasm. I do take in everything and research them myself to sift through the BS. However I figured this may help to shead light on something that I might not think to ask. Such as "are there regulations on if the gun can be loaded or not. If it can be loaded can there be a round in the chamber." How would someone recomend to carry. Im also hoping for opinions it dosent all have to be legal.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There are statute laws - Code of Virginia.

    Then there are municipal ordinances - city and county.

    We also have regulations - state agency rules that have gone through a particular procedure, have force of law.

    Then we have rules for private property - no immediate, direct force of law.

    Good to get to know VA preemption statute § 15.2-915.

    Also understand what is meant by the Dillon Rule - local government only has the power/authority granted by the state.
    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dmb/fcpos/dillon.pdf

    A pistol carried OC or CC many be loaded, chambered, ready - anything else is called a paper weight.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-14-2012 at 06:45 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    thanks for those links Grapeshot. And paper weights make great weapons
    Last edited by Tanner; 05-14-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Also understand what is meant by the Dillon Rule - local government only has the power/authority granted by the state.
    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dmb/fcpos/dillon.pdf
    thanks for this. it's an interesting read.
    it's also interesting that it's hosted on a a fairfax county server; and might "fcpos" mean "fairfax county position? the document makes a case for reversing the dillon rule and i just bet that fc would like to enact some of their own ordinances without interference from the ga.
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Always hold the handrail when going up or down the stairs; that way, when you fall (notice I didn't say, "if"?), you won't be hurt as badly.

    When raising children, remember that they are automatic learning machines and will watch you all the time; be the person you want your child to become.

    Control and assurance are illusory; by self-discipline and self-control you can acquire a degree of influence over external reality; act as though you know what you're doing and everyone will think you do.

    Nine-tenths of the law is NOT possession; possession is one-tenth of the law; how you characterize that possession is nine-tenths.

    When questioned by the police remember that if they have probable cause to arrest you, they are going to do so no matter what you say, and they are not required to give you "Miranda" warnings until after you're in handcuffs; if they don't already have probable cause, talking to them will give them all they need. Therefore, remember two rules: 1) "I want my lawyer."; and 2) remember these five letters, one for each of the fingers you should have on one hand: KYBMS. ("Keep Your Big Mouth Shut.") Very few people have the discipline it requires to think carefully and in proper legal form when we've already started "chatting" with the police, so don't do it. Be like Nancy Reagan, "just say, 'no!"

    That's everything I can think of, off the top of my head. Good luck with that.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  13. #13
    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    When questioned by the police remember that if they have probable cause to arrest you, they are going to do so no matter what you say, and they are not required to give you "Miranda" warnings until after you're in handcuffs; if they don't already have probable cause, talking to them will give them all they need. Therefore, remember two rules: 1) "I want my lawyer."; and 2) remember these five letters, one for each of the fingers you should have on one hand: KYBMS. ("Keep Your Big Mouth Shut."); 3) Keep the business card of the best attorney you know in your wallet and the phone number on speed-dial. Very few people have the discipline it requires to think carefully and in proper legal form when we've already started "chatting" with the police, so don't do it. Be like Nancy Reagan, "just say, 'no!"
    there... i fixed it for you. ;-)
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

  14. #14
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    snip...

    A pistol carried OC or CC many be loaded, chambered, ready - anything else is called a paper weight.
    +1 When I first started carrying I was unsure about the one in the chamber thing. So I decided to go with the 'safer than sorry' route as far as a legality stand point just because I didn't find anything that said it was legal. It wasn't until I asked the question and was given a very good answer. "Laws only restrict what you can do, they do not on the other hand tell you what you can do". From then on I never leave the house unless I am 'cocked and lock' so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Sorry if I hurt your feelings not my intent at all. So far this has been the best place to learn about OC. What I lack in experience I make up for with enthusiasm. I do take in everything and research them myself to sift through the BS. However I figured this may help to shead light on something that I might not think to ask. Such as "are there regulations on if the gun can be loaded or not. If it can be loaded can there be a round in the chamber." How would someone recomend to carry. Im also hoping for opinions it dosent all have to be legal.
    The first bold line I can say is a very true statement. The second one I understand where you are coming from. What I do have to say about it though is this. The best way I have found to figure things out that I do not know/understand is to read the Code of Virginia (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC) Title 18.2 Chapter 7 18.2-308 area is where you will find a lot of codes pertaining to weapons. As far as Ordinances go they are specific to where you live so you will have to look for your specific area. There is a thread on here (stop and identify I think it was) where somebody had put together a Google document with links to just about every city/county ordinance website. I will look for it when I am done with this so you can read over your local ordinances. I would also suggest reading over any other areas that you frequent just so you can be informed. When you have finished all your reading and have taken note to what it is exactly that you don't understand that is IMHO the best time to ask questions. That way you can be sure that you understand everything and you have read it all yourself. If somebody gives you advice specific to the law ask for a cite if they didn't include it with the information. Not to be a butt hole, but to ensure that you are getting accurate information. Just my two cents. Oh and anything User says when he decides to post, you should definitely take under advisement, he is definitely a good source of information.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  15. #15
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Ha thanks user for the wisdome, and magik for the link for the virginia statutes. I asked this on another thread but ill ask here also.
    I thought that Virginia had something in place that overruled local law or ordinances. at least in reguards to OC. Maby someone has posted something explaining this but I dident get it. Anyone have a plain jane explanation? and thanks to everyone sofar
    Last edited by Tanner; 05-15-2012 at 06:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Ha thanks user for the wisdome, and magik for the link for the virginia statutes. I asked this on another thread but ill ask here also.
    I thought that Virginia had something in place that overruled local law or ordinances. at least in reguards to OC. Maby someone has posted something explaining this but I dident get it. Anyone have a plain jane explanation? and thanks to everyone sofar

    Virginia has what is called 'preemption'... Paragraph A & B are about as 'plain jane' as you can get:


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915
    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

    C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.

  18. #18
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Stop

    Think

    Act

    Review


    STAR...
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ...A pistol carried OC or CC many be loaded, chambered, ready - anything else is called a paper weight.
    Heavy is good; heavy is reliable; and if it does not work, you can hit him with it.
    -- Boris the Blade, in "Snatch".
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tanner --snip--
    I thought that Virginia had something in place that overruled local law or ordinances. at least in reguards to OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    --snipped--
    Virginia has what is called 'preemption'
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915
    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
    Regarding OC in the Code of Virginia:

    Laws/statutes are generally written to place limitations on doing something, thereby making such illegal. Since the open carry of properly holstered handguns has not been addressed by the General Assembly, it is the absence of any law limiting or restricting such activity that makes it by default legal.

    When you add preemption (§ 15.2-915) into the mix, no municipality may restrict the manner in which you/we may chose to carry either.

    Broad brush answer: OC is legal throughout Virginia - no papers required. Yes there are some restrictions on where one can carry/possess guns (i.e. courts, jails etc.) and yes one needs to be not a restricted person. Private property rights do trump the RKBA at the discretion of the private property owner.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Ok im am then back to the understanding that OC is OC anywhere you go in Virginia and there are no local guidelines that will change the fact that I am legaly carring. I forget what it was that gave me the impression that there could be. Thanks again guys and keep it coming if you think of something.

  22. #22
    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    It's best i've found just to know the hardline no carry zone laws off memory (i.e. court houses, k-12 schools, etc), then as a courtesy to vendors just make a passive effort to look for signs as you go about your day. It's better to seek forgiveness than ask permission ........and if you get asked to leave hand them an OC card, tell them that they will be referred to as not OC friendly on forums and may lose business from OC/CCers alike. and be on your way. Sometimes I have found that it is hard to give up certain places. I stopped going to Buffalo Wild Wings, Navy Federal, and was about to leave Wachovia till they turned Wells Fargo. I decided school is important so I just carry a good knife and have an anchored safe in my car and park right off campus.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

  23. #23
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Yea good point I have a card that was givent to me by skidmark with all the no carry zones. I like the Idea of having OC cards. Where would I get those.

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by derhammer View Post
    If he says "yes," ask him for his RAS - that stands for Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. They have to have a reason for stopping you. They must suspect that you have either committed a crime or are about to do so, in which case, if they can tell you why, you do need to give them your ID, but if they don't have a reasonable suspicion that you may have committed or are about to commit a crime with they can articulate to you coherently, you don't need to do a damn thing.
    In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them (unless a permit is required for OC of course). Only in states with stop-and-identify laws must one identify himself to a police officer (name, date of birth, address depending on local law) with RAS.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    by MIB "In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them" I am not intentually being smart about it but would you need a government ID to identify yourself. If some one does not have or simply rather not hand over his license wouldent they be able to say ok "my name is tanner marcantonio. I live at x address". from what I understand the only time one may have to show government issued ID is in a traffic stop. I may be wrong though. wouldent be the first time that happend

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