Share your wisdom with me!

Ok im am then back to the understanding that OC is OC anywhere you go in Virginia and there are no local guidelines that will change the fact that I am legaly carring. I forget what it was that gave me the impression that there could be. Thanks again guys and keep it coming if you think of something.

It's best i've found just to know the hardline no carry zone laws off memory (i.e. court houses, k-12 schools, etc), then as a courtesy to vendors just make a passive effort to look for signs as you go about your day. It's better to seek forgiveness than ask permission ........and if you get asked to leave hand them an OC card, tell them that they will be referred to as not OC friendly on forums and may lose business from OC/CCers alike. and be on your way. Sometimes I have found that it is hard to give up certain places. I stopped going to Buffalo Wild Wings, Navy Federal, and was about to leave Wachovia till they turned Wells Fargo. I decided school is important so I just carry a good knife and have an anchored safe in my car and park right off campus.

Yea good point I have a card that was givent to me by skidmark with all the no carry zones. I like the Idea of having OC cards. Where would I get those.

derhammer said:

If he says "yes," ask him for his RAS - that stands for Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. They have to have a reason for stopping you. They must suspect that you have either committed a crime or are about to do so, in which case, if they can tell you why, you do need to give them your ID, but if they don't have a reasonable suspicion that you may have committed or are about to commit a crime with they can articulate to you coherently, you don't need to do a damn thing.

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In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them (unless a permit is required for OC of course). Only in states with stop-and-identify laws must one identify himself to a police officer (name, date of birth, address depending on local law) with RAS.

by MIB "In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them" I am not intentually being smart about it but would you need a government ID to identify yourself. If some one does not have or simply rather not hand over his license wouldent they be able to say ok "my name is tanner marcantonio. I live at x address". from what I understand the only time one may have to show government issued ID is in a traffic stop. I may be wrong though. wouldent be the first time that happend

Tanner said:

by MIB "In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them" I am not intentually being smart about it but would you need a government ID to identify yourself. If some one does not have or simply rather not hand over his license wouldent they be able to say ok "my name is tanner marcantonio. I live at x address". from what I understand the only time one may have to show government issued ID is in a traffic stop. I may be wrong though. wouldent be the first time that happend

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You are correct; you only need ID if the behavior you are engaged in requires such (driving, carrying concealed, etc.).

A sample stop-and-identify law (Nevada):

NRS 171.123 Temporary detention by peace officer of person suspected of criminal behavior or of violating conditions of parole or probation: Limitations. 1. Any peace officer may detain any person whom the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime.

2. Any peace officer may detain any person the officer encounters under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has violated or is violating the conditions of the person’s parole or probation.
3. The officer may detain the person pursuant to this section only to ascertain the person’s identity and the suspicious circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad. Any person so detained shall identify himself or herself, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any peace officer.

4. A person must not be detained longer than is reasonably necessary to effect the purposes of this section, and in no event longer than 60 minutes. The detention must not extend beyond the place or the immediate vicinity of the place where the detention was first effected, unless the person is arrested.

(Added to NRS by 1969, 535; A 1973, 597; 1975, 1200; 1987, 1172; 1995, 2068)

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A verbal identification is sufficient.

Virginia, to the best of my knowledge, does not have a stop-and-identify law.

ManInBlack said:

/snip/

A verbal identification is sufficient.

Virginia, to the best of my knowledge, does not have a stop-and-identify law.

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At least you said that. Tanner this is why I suggest reading before asking questions. If you just so happen to live in VA Beach they do have a "stop and ID" Ordinance and this varies from locality to locality. So MIB you are correct in saying that VA it self does not have "Stop & ID" Law, but depending on your locality you may have a "Stop & ID" Ordinance in place.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...IMIOF.html#CO_CH23OF_ARTIMIOF_S23-7.1PRIDPOOF

Sec. 23-7.1. - Providing identification to police officer said:

It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

(Ord. No. 1570, 12-16-85)

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If you're new to open carry, go to some of the open carry events you may see here that might be near you. Attend a VCDL meeting, where you're likely to be among others who will be open carrying. WWW.VCDL.org will have dates, times and locations. Gaining a comfort level while open carrying is the probably the most important thing you can do. By all means, do your best to understand the laws, but don't make your head explode doing so. Most people, including police, will probably ignore you when you're open carrying. If you have problems, follow user's advice and have his phone number handy.

MagiK_SacK said:

At least you said that. Tanner this is why I suggest reading before asking questions. If you just so happen to live in VA Beach they do have a "stop and ID" Ordinance and this varies from locality to locality. So MIB you are correct in saying that VA it self does not have "Stop & ID" Law, but depending on your locality you may have a "Stop & ID" Ordinance in place.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...IMIOF.html#CO_CH23OF_ARTIMIOF_S23-7.1PRIDPOOF

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Just out of curiosity, are you aware of any cases in which the VA Supreme Court has ruled on these laws' comportment with the VA constitution? Not being familiar with the document myself, I can't offer comment, but do know that some states (like WA) provide significantly more protection than is offered by the 4A.

Tanner said:

Yea good point I have a card that was givent to me by skidmark with all the no carry zones. I like the Idea of having OC cards. Where would I get those.

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Tanner said:

by MIB "In no state are Americans required to carry government ID with them" I am not intentually being smart about it but would you need a government ID to identify yourself. If some one does not have or simply rather not hand over his license wouldent they be able to say ok "my name is tanner marcantonio. I live at x address". from what I understand the only time one may have to show government issued ID is in a traffic stop. I may be wrong though. wouldent be the first time that happend

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Look at the card that Skid gave you - presuming it is the fuchsia/pink VCDL info card. Turn it over a read just below the title.

Places where carry is prohibited in Virginia
Note: In most locations where concealed carry (CC) is
prohibited, open carry (OC) is also prohibited.

Now logically what does that tell you? If CC is not prohibited = OC not prohibited.

The is no statute in the Code of VA that says a LAC be required to ID himself to a LEO - there is no arbitrary "stop & identify" law there, especially as it relates to carrying a properly holstered handgun. Under duress, the most that will be offered is my name and general area in which I live - no "papers", absolutely none will be voluntarily given. Some people have been known to OC "sterile" = no ID of any kind on them. We do not live in a police state, contrary to the extreme opinions of some.

Carrying a gun is neither PC nor RAS of a crime - no stop by a LEO is consequently warranted. Any interaction on your part will be consensual - best advise is don't consent, don't take part. That and now you are entering the field of the Fourth Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Ok another question. GO FIGURE. You guys suggest to carry some kind of recording device on your person for very obvious reasons and I will be carrying one. My phone has a very good mic on it and I think it will do great. The question is does it matter if it is a digital recorder or not? For such things to be submitted in court I am under the impression that it can not be by a digital device. My example would be from my driving experience where as pictures taken of an accident can not be taken by a digital camera off of the understanding that such devices make it easy to falsify. To the best of anyones knowledge does this also apply to OC or does anyone know of a OCer having had this issue. Thanks

ManInBlack said:

Just out of curiosity, are you aware of any cases in which the VA Supreme Court has ruled on these laws' comportment with the VA constitution? Not being familiar with the document myself, I can't offer comment, but do know that some states (like WA) provide significantly more protection than is offered by the 4A.

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Personally, No. Is there a chance that it has been fought before, who knows? It is a good point and something I will look into. For the time being though, really in general, I am one to err on the side of caution. Strictly for financial reasons. I can't risk the potential cost of being arrested for what ever reason, or a potential erroneous ticket for what ever some LEO on a power trip wants to give me because I know my rights. Don't get me wrong that isn't to say I'm one to get bow down to a LEO, I just chose not to push it as far as some people might. Maybe one day when I finally figure out how to properly manage my money I might be one to take more of a stand, but for now I'll just not risk it.

Grapeshot said:

/snip/

The is no statute in the Code of VA that says a LAC be required to ID himself to a LEO - there is no arbitrary "stop & identify" law there, especially as it relates to carrying a properly holstered handgun. Under duress, the most that will be offered is my name and general area in which I live - no "papers", absolutely none will be voluntarily given. Some people have been known to OC "sterile" = no ID of any kind on them. We do not live in a police state, contrary to the extreme opinions of some.

Carrying a gun is neither PC nor RAS of a crime - no stop by a LEO is consequently warranted. Any interaction on your part will be consensual - best advise is don't consent, don't take part. That and now you are entering the field of the Fourth Amendment

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The first bold point as it is true, how does that effect the fact that localities may or may not have an ordinance in affect like the one I quoted a few post ago. That leads me to the second bold point, as I agree with that statement, and am sure every one on here will. The thing about it is, it may not be true in all of VA Beach, I am willing to bet that during the height of tourism season if you were to walk down the ocean front strip/boardwalk OC there is a good chance you may get stopped under VB Stop & ID Ordinance. As far as legality goes, we all know it isn't right, but that's not to say it will stop a LEO from trying to ruin your day. If seen it done for more petty things. For somebody like myself who just can't afford to push the limits, would you say, after the standard decline of info/am I being detained question, if they chose to continue to detain you would it be reasonable to at least give the info they are asking for? That is of course considering the whole poor man factor.

Tanner said:

Ok another question. GO FIGURE. You guys suggest to carry some kind of recording device on your person for very obvious reasons and I will be carrying one. My phone has a very good mic on it and I think it will do great. The question is does it matter if it is a digital recorder or not? For such things to be submitted in court I am under the impression that it can not be by a digital device. My example would be from my driving experience where as pictures taken of an accident can not be taken by a digital camera off of the understanding that such devices make it easy to falsify. To the best of anyones knowledge does this also apply to OC or does anyone know of a OCer having had this issue. Thanks

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Myself, I do not carry one. I am currently relying on my iPhone. Somebody on here was talking about the idea of using a phone and they made a good point. With a phone you have to start recording once you are in a situation that recording would benefit you. With a recorder it can be recording all day with no problem so if something were to happen you don't have to worry about it, you are covered.

One of the biggest problems with these local ID laws is that as far as I know, no court opinion has established the practical meaning of this requirement:

"if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."

Until that is well defined, it can mean anything, or nothing at all.

TFred

TFred said:

One of the biggest problems with these local ID laws is that as far as I know, no court opinion has established the practical meaning of this requirement:

"if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."

Until that is well defined, it can mean anything, or nothing at all.

TFred

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I didn't know about no court opinion. I guess that really makes it worse. I always looked at it as if the law/ordinance was not black and white clear a LEO will interpret what ever it may be in the way that suits them best. So with out a court opinion that would solidify that thought.

TFred said:

One of the biggest problems with these local ID laws is that as far as I know, no court opinion has established the practical meaning of this requirement:

"if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."

Until that is well defined, it can mean anything, or nothing at all.

TFred

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THE DILLON RULE TFred!
There is no state authorization for the local laws.

According to User...Common law allows them to ask your name and where you're from...After Dark.

Screw em all why cant they just leave us alone. LET MY PEOPLE GO! Joke!

A comment on the VB ordinance

http://library.municode.com/HTML/101...23-7.1PRIDPOOF

Originally Posted by Sec. 23-7.1. - Providing identification to police officer

It shall be unlawful and a Class 1 misdemeanor for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, or to provide false information in response to such a request, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

(Ord. No. 1570, 12-16-85)​

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skidmark said:

A comment on the VB ordinance

This only requires the providing of name and address. There is nothing saying that you must produce anything that might be used to verify the information you provide. While we know that cops want to see your government-issued ID document, there is nothing that makes failing to allow them to do so a criminal act. Not even the dreaded "Obstruction of Justice" charge will stand up - especially if you have a recording of the interchange documenting that you slowly, clearly enunciated your name and address, and perhaps even offered to spell certain words for the nice officer.

/snip/

[/INDENT]

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Very true, thanks for pointing that out. When I posted that I thought I had highlighted that point, guess I forgot. :banghead:

skidmark said:

Which brings up that question about "digital" recordings and their acceptance. What the cops use is digital recordings, and those do not seem to be questioned (very often) except in the occassion of their "disappearance". There are ways for a digital recording to be examined to determine if it has been edited. The main issue as I see it is that the recording is going to be used to provide verification/substantiation of your personal testimony, just the same as the cops use their dash camera images to, for example, demonstrate just how much someone was weaving and slurring their speech as opposed to just laying the recording up as the only evidence.

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How come the cheap store bought citizen owned recorders seem more reliable then the 'commerical grade' owned/used by police departments? It seems that most everytime we hear of an incident that may have been recorded on a dash cam, or a 'gubmint' owned camera system.... the equipment malfunctions??? Puzzling.....