i am in full support believe me the day i turn 21 (just shy of 18 now) i will begin training with my weapon of choice, but thinking about this would police not think less threatened or agitated of an OCer if upon the first request of I.D. they were cooperated with?
if every OCer did this the police would begin to accept and respect our right to carry and therefore would give a friendly wave and be on there way? would they not?
also in public if an OCer cooperated with police and non carry citizens saw this would those citizens begin to understand why we do what we do?
i think non carriers see refusing to show I.D. as some sort of rebellious tactic and feel threatened by that
Last edited by 722wdblazer; 05-14-2012 at 01:30 PM.
But remember Aesop's Fable's
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt
The problem is the fact that a LEO has no right or authority over fully legal activity. Cooperating with a detention doesn't help at all. No one's legal status is ever improved by giving information to the police. When you do, you give up legal defense under search and seizure laws. Police are looking for you to make a slip of the tongue that gives them an arrest, no matter how flimsy. Finally, cooperating teaches the police and observers that this illegal behavior is ok.
Just walking down the street, buying apples, or hanging out in a group at Starbucks doesn't give Smokey any leeway looking into you. The legal carrying of a firearm in conjunction with these situations doesn't change that.
Police that will approach you will fall under one of three categories; those that see themselves as being above the law and feel they need to impress upon you the need for you to submit, those that are truly ignorant and are just trying to do their job, and those that know the law and are just trying to get the contact with you over as quickly as soon as they can.
My recommendation is be polite and answer questions with one word answers. As soon as ID is asked for, SHUT THE F*** UP and walk away. If he says or does something that indicates he isn't going to let you, ask "why am I being detained?" If they indicate that they want to take it further state "I want to leave, I do not consent to this" but do not physically resist. After this say absolutely nothing except to request a lawyer. Despite what they may tell you or what you've seen on TV, you do not appear guilty by lawyering up.
I've not had LEO encounters for firearms but LOTS for motorcycle riding.
Last edited by Levi; 05-14-2012 at 01:56 PM.
What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
I believe in freedom, Mr. Lipwig. Not many people do, although they will, of course, protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.
The freedom to succeed goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail. - Going Postal, Terry Pratchett
There is a difference to cooperating with police and giving up your rights that are protected by law.
Example: I witness a hit and run. I stick around and cooperate with police by providing details of what I saw and if need be I testify in court.
Example: I am walking down the street when an officer says, "Hey, you! C'mere and show me ID!"
Negative. I have done nothing wrong, legally or morally. There is no reason for me to give up my lawful right to anonymity. Showing ID would not be cooperation and would only further that officer's feeling of power over others.
As a child you were punished for doing something wrong. You were taught from a young age that actions have consequences.
You don't do your schoolwork you fail the class.
You don't do the job you're being paid to do you get fired.
You rob someone you go to jail.
Having a badge is not an excuse to break the law you swore to uphold.
Welcome to the forum. This is a great resource and I am happy to be a part of it. Many of the members here have spent years preserving our rights. When you give up those rights you might as well just slap them in the face. Enjoy your stay!
"Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney
"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." -Gerald R. Ford
Also, this phrase in the Washington State Constitution seems important to you:
"SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."
May I ask why this phrase is not equally important?
"SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law."
Instead of enabling police and the anti-gun crowd in their behaviors, we must work to change it. Blindly complying with any demand of a police officer without offering any protest, without authority of law behind the demand, is enabling their behavior. And if you simply give in to their "requests" you have no idea if they think they can "demand" it under authority of law or not. Make them show you what their intentions are.
Last edited by NavyLCDR; 05-14-2012 at 03:43 PM.
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington
i know that theres law guru's on here, but not everybody knows every gun law.
so for those average people that got the idea beaten into there brains that guns are bad and guns kill people, i think that seeing that the police are perfectly content with me carrying a pistol and ive cooperated with them to the extent that i am willing, enough so that they know im not a threat to society and im simply carrying that weapon to defend myself the people around me and if the situation presents itself in which a police officer is being fired upon that i would gladly assist i dont see how that is problematic.
yes you may be "bothered" multiple times by an officer but after however many police talk to you and know you are not acting in a threatening manner and you are simply going about your business, they might get a call one day drive by and see oh its just him they already know you arent doing anything wrong
so they can be on there merry way, yes this may take months but id rather get talked to once a day for 2 months and be known as a well mannered young man with the intent to protect innocent people from a crazed gunman,
opposed to being followed by a cop thats doesnt know my intentions and see's me as a threat everyday, get stopped and be non cooperative every time they stop me, that officer is going to think the same of me forever.
so my choice, and i should add that these are my "OPINIONS" is to cooperate and even though there is no reason that officer should be talking to me i will act in a professional manner, be polite and act in a non threatining relaxed way that officer has no reason to stop me again, after a couple stops he will remember my info and as he is driving by he can check that havent aquired a felony charge since the last time we conversed and go on his way he wont have any reason to stop me and the people that see me around town will slowly begin to understand im not a bad person.
this will take years i know but id rather it take a couple years than a couple decades
THIS IS MY OWN OPINION OBVIOUSLY, I KNOW EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN, THIS IS SIMPLY ANOTHER IDEA TO PRESENT TO CARRIERS, I DO LIKE TO READ YOU'RE THOUGHTS ON THIS MATTER.
after reading experienced carriers stories i can consider the pros and cons of my opinions in that scenario.
thank you for you're input
Any reason you’re not doing this now" Don't have access to firearms for whatever reason....? You can purchase long guns at 18, you can have a family member that is able to own, purchase, and posses buy the weapon (handgun) of choice, and teach you. And when you turn 21 give it to you. Hell, they can give it to you now; you just can't be in possession of it, alone, until 21. That way you can begin mastering it now! Why wait all those years.
Last edited by jbone; 05-14-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Deleted double tap
Last edited by jbone; 05-14-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Would you be OK with an officer investigating you because you were talking on a cell phone to make sure the cell phone was not stolen? Would you be OK with an officer investigating you because you were eating in McDonald's with children at your table to make sure you were not a kidnapper? Would you just "cooperate" with the officer enough times in those scenarios until the officer "came to know you" and he decided that you no longer required investigation? Why is your lawful possession of a firearm any different?
Last edited by NavyLCDR; 05-14-2012 at 06:48 PM.
i do train with handguns, i should have worded that differently, what i mean is when i can legally purchase my weapon of choice i want to get it new for myself. its just something i want to do
this is why i dont just go out and do stuff, in choosing my route i would simply be doing it for myself, and it would if anything make the police more intrusive on you're private affairs, thank you for your input, i understand what you mean about read and observe for a while to gain some knowledge on the matter.
that was a short quick anwser to alot of unneeded typing
Does your keyboard have a defective capital I?
Last edited by golddigger14s; 05-14-2012 at 07:49 PM.
"The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
"Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
Snip "would police not think less threatened or agitated of an OCer if upon the first request of I.D. they were cooperated with?"
Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on the officer. Fact of the matter is, Wouldnt we be less agitated if we were not confronted by police for lawfully going about our day, minding our own business? Why should we care if the police are agitated if they inject themselves into our lives uninvited and WITHOUT CAUSE? It's not about being rebellious it's about retaining the rights you still have left.
If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas
"They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Why should we cater to the anti-gun crowd and police officers who are either ignorant of the law or willfully disregard the law? Why can't we insist that they cater to the law?
722wdblazer, it wasn't that long ago that I was 17 (26 now). But trust me when I say this, you're very likely going to change A LOT of your opinions and outlook on life in the next few years. With that in mind, like others have already said, spend some time reading through the old threads and keeping an open mind. At first it might not make sense why we advocate doing things certain ways, but there are very good reasons for it. Especially look at some of NavyLCDR or Mainsail's posts (among others)...I think they tend to explain things more clearly and eloquently than the rest of us can.
Also, regarding the theory of getting cops used to a certain individual: I can see it MAYBE working in a small town, but there has got to be 100 or more officers in Vancouver. I think that the logistics of each officer getting to know that you are a law abiding citizen would be impossible. Never mind that they will never know or believe how competent you are or think you are in dealing with active shooter scenarios...and it's none of their business. Most of us should probably only be worried about ourselves. It's nice to think that we'll save the day and help an officer under fire or stop a madman at a mall...it's a whole other story to actually be competent in getting that job accomplished. One step at a time.
Best of luck and welcome to OCDO!
Last edited by skiingislife725; 05-15-2012 at 08:40 AM.
722wdblazer, for an excellent example of why we refuse unlawful requests for ID or CPL please read the thread here on the Washington forum about GoGoDawgs and others' experience at Ft. Worden camping this past weekend.
I understand that you are young and inexperienced and do not want any trouble right off the bat. That's perfectly normal. The remedy for that is to become VERY familiar with Washington's gun laws and to really listen to the more experienced folks here. Some people do become nervous when stopped by a LEO; we are taught to be afraid and to cooperate with them by mainstream society and the media. I was nervous when I was stopped for a traffic infraction while I was OC. It went well, even though he took my gun temporarily; he was familiar with the laws and knew OC was legal and did not have a problem with it. The police will sometimes take it when you are stopped for a traffic infraction, supposedly for "officer safety". I was not about to wrestle with him over my gun, but I did tell him that I did not give my consent to it. You might also want to read the thread about Tom Brewster's experience along these lines a couple of years ago.
You may also want to check out Dave Workman's book, "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibbilities", available at most local gun ranges. He also writes a regular column on line at Seattle Gun Examiner (sorry if I got that wrong) don't remember if it's .org or .com.
The more we "go along to get along" the faster we lose our God given rights. SPD in particular has and is being investigated for excessive use of force, for one thing. The police are not always right, though they would like you to think so. Our founding fathers fought the most powerful nation on earth at the time and died for what they believed was fair, just, and our birthright. When you cave in and give ID when you don't have to, you negate that sacifice. Our rights were not given to us by our government, they are God given and therefore cannot be taken away, although many governments have and continue to try. Governments have nothing to fear from slaves, but they are afraid of free men and women. The gun on my hip very definitely says I am not a slave. The Constitution of The United States of America (God bless her!) and the Bill of Rights is not there to enumerate our RIGHTS, it's purpose is to put the government on notice that these rights are not to be infringed(violated).
Please try to keep an open mind and learn from those more experienced. The journey to your personal freedom is an exciting one and the only end is when you take your last breath. Welcome to the forum, I hope you will stay and learn a lot. This is an excellent group of people to learn from and be associated with. Try to attend one of the monthly get togethers at a Starbucks; you don't have to open carry or carry at all to attend. Meet some of the people on the forum; that will give you a better idea of who you are talking to. Listen to the people who have been where you are and learn from them and from their mistakes; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead
Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin
You were never taught about your rights, were you?
The point behind refusing to show ID when approached solely for OC is that it is up to YOU to protect your rights. The avenue of "cooperation" you are talking about is the same mindset that led to Nazi Germany. We CANNOT allow the police or the government to fully run our lives. We can't afford to coddle their sensibilities in order to HOPEFULLY bring them around to our way way of thinking. They need to be reminded that THEY work for US; not the reverse. What you propose does, indeed, reverse the "natural order.
Let me ask you this. Is it right and proper for a police officer to approach every adult at a McDonald's who has a child with them and ask for ID so they can be sure that adult isn't a registered sex offender? Of course not! If they were to do so, they would face a disciplinary hearing at best because the public wouldn't stand for it.
SO, why is it different for the average OC advocate to be stopped, detained, searched and his/her ID run just because they're carrying their handgun in a legal manner?
The courts are clear on this and the law is on our side. If ignorance of the law is no excuse for a law abiding citizen, it's even less so for those who are tasked with upholding it.
"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson
yes you may be "bothered" multiple times by an officer.
The last cop that did that to me got to chat with a very irate Judge, got to pay my attorney and was ordered to stay away from me for 1 year. I do not like and will not submit to being stopped 11 times in 45 minutes, you may feel differently.
would you be ok with being stopped every mile by an officer while you are walking around your city to make sure you are a citizen. Everyday they stop you, many different cops, everyday. papers please
I think you would get upset. America home of the free
I only have one little thing for you to remember. The LAW is written...it does not walk on two legs and carry a badge.
Firearm LAW for the state of Washington is at RCW 9.41...read it, learn what it says, memorize it, and then abide by it. Remember, that which is not specifically prohibited by law, is permitted.
Memorize Washington State Constitution Article 1 section 7 and Article 1 section 24 also.
Last edited by hermannr; 05-16-2012 at 12:31 PM.
Actually, hermannr means RCW 9.41, not 4.41. (I also think me meant to type "walk", but that wouldn't have gotten a chuckle...)