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Thread: can I deny to show ID or tell my name?

  1. #1
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    can I deny to show ID or tell my name?

    as the tittle says, can I deny showing/telling them? reason im asking is because today I was with a friend who was pulled over. the cop told me if I didnt tell him my name I would be charged with obstruction. he said id be paying 300$ fine and they would learn my name by taking me to the station for prints. now to avoid that I showed them. now would I have really been charged?


    also to add I was in the back seat, just in case you missed I was a passanger


    also same goes for when im carrying my gun, do I have to show them?
    Last edited by newbie; 05-15-2012 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Officer, I wouldn't dream of obstructing your investigation in any way. Tell ya what, I'm just going to go waaaaayyyy over there and keep my mouth shut so I don't get in the way."
    In other words... non-cooperation isn't obstruction.
    A tree in the middle of the road is an obstruction. A road that goes around the tree instead of straight when you want it to isn't an obstruction; the road just isn't cooperating.

    I wonder, if the officer stopped a bus for speeding or for running a red light, is he going to detain every passenger on the bus and demand of them their identity??
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 05-15-2012 at 10:05 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    946.41 Resisting or obstructing officer.

    946.41(1)
    (1) Except as provided in subs. (2m) and (2r), whoever knowingly resists or obstructs an officer while such officer is doing any act in an official capacity and with lawful authority is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    ...
    946.41(2)(a)
    (a) "Obstructs" includes without limitation knowingly giving false information to the officer or knowingly placing physical evidence with intent to mislead the officer in the performance of his or her duty including the service of any summons or civil process.

    946.41(2)(b)
    (b) "Officer" means a peace officer or other public officer or public employee having the authority by virtue of the officer's or employee's office or employment to take another into custody.
    ...

    946.41(2m)(a)
    (a) The violator gives false information or places physical evidence with intent to mislead an officer.
    ...
    ...
    946.41(3)
    (3) Whoever by violating this section hinders, delays or prevents an officer from properly serving or executing any summons or civil process, is civilly liable to the person injured for any actual loss caused thereby and to the officer or the officer's superior for any damages adjudged against either of them by reason thereof.

    946.41 - ANNOT.
    No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person's refusal to give his or her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey, 194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).



    EDIT: One might note that "obstruction" requires one to do something i.e. to give a false name, to hinder, to stop, to delay, to prevent, to place. One must take an action in order to "obstruct".
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 05-15-2012 at 10:14 PM. Reason: deleted extraneous material

  4. #4
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    yea I wasnt sure about it, I had nothing to hide but I didnt want to waste my day going to get finger printed. the cop was a dick to us. I was in the back of the car and he was pressing all of us for id. I was the only one who denyed thats when another cop showed up. then I was fealing the heat so I just told him. but if I dont have to next time I wont, but to be on the safe side id rather know then guess

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    They can try all they want, but it won't hold water.

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/Ma...nce_of_OOJ.pdf

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/Ma..._Complaint.pdf

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/Madison5/lawsuit.pdf

    Go to http://www.wisconsincarry.org/default.html, click the dates for the Madison 5 info, Sep 23, 2010, Sep 30, 2010, and May 5, 2011.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    just wondering, where do you guys get all this info from? is there a place I can also go to?

  7. #7
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    thanks for tge info ill look at it as soon as I get back to my computer.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    just wondering, where do you guys get all this info from? is there a place I can also go to?


    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    or
    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/ for a fast search.

    Some of the forum members have put in a lot of time to read all if the "gun control" laws we have in Wisconsin.
    Guess thats why I keep reading and asking questions. Lots of "gun control" stuff to learn.

  9. #9
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    or
    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/ for a fast search.

    Some of the forum members have put in a lot of time to read all if the "gun control" laws we have in Wisconsin.
    Guess thats why I keep reading and asking questions. Lots of "gun control" stuff to learn.


    thanks for the sight, ill be reading threw the gun control laws the next few days.



    also i just read threw the case. how big of a PITA factor was it for the law suit?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I just typed OBSTRUCTION and WISCONSIN into google.

  11. #11
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    Check this out
    Last edited by HolyOrangeJuice; 05-16-2012 at 01:34 AM. Reason: I'm a sarcastic person...can't help it :D

  12. #12
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    Check this out
    thats a good one, iv never seen anything like that


    also i could have googled it myself, witch i did but im not going to believe google. id rather ask wisconsin people. because some smart people live in this state and could fill me in. like the law web page. my eyes were burning from looking at the screen for so long. now that i know the link i wont have to ask questions about the law, unless i cant find it in there. or have questions about a law that im not understanding.

    witch im sure there will be some. but not today.

  13. #13
    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ou-should-know

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...35-New-DOJ-FAQ

    here are a couple of stickied threads of great info

    and newbie you are correct there are alot of smart people in this state and most of them show up in here i have learned so much info from the guys and gals from this site im glad i stumbled upon this site and other 2A supportive sites
    SCOTT

    "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

    "When seconds count police are minutes away"

    "Dialing 911 only takes seconds but waiting for help may take the rest of your life"

    http://g2-elite.com/phpbb/index.php Shed Hunting

  14. #14
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I am saving up for one of them fancy digital recording devices I hear tell about.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I am saving up for one of them fancy digital recording devices I hear tell about.
    Like Paul's "wire," also known to most as a cell phone?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  16. #16
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Like Paul's "wire," also known to most as a cell phone?
    LOL!

    Yep, got a new 'wire' that is even better. A Samsung Galaxy S with www.qik.com installed. When I have an 'issue', I just start the Qik recorder and it records to the web just in case the phone gets 'damaged'.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    LOL!

    Yep, got a new 'wire' that is even better. A Samsung Galaxy S with www.qik.com installed. When I have an 'issue', I just start the Qik recorder and it records to the web just in case the phone gets 'damaged'.
    I have Qik as well, but for the life of me can't figure out how to stream to Dropbox or Box or my domain. And before you ask, no, I did NOT read the directions!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  18. #18
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I have Qik as well, but for the life of me can't figure out how to stream to Dropbox or Box or my domain. And before you ask, no, I did NOT read the directions!
    I just stream it to Qik's website.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I just stream it to Qik's website.
    Nice! I'm not tech savvy so I have a few questions: Does the phone work with T-Mobile (SIM cards?) and does it stream video and audio?



    On topic: No P.C., No R.A.S. therefore no I.D. required to be shown. This may have been linked earlier in this thread but if not, here it is again. The Attorney General's memo on 20 April, 2009 about open carry and your right to privacy.

    LINK: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/file...nCarryMemo.pdf

    Snip about I.D.: ¶9. And “even when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual, [and] ask to examine the individual's identification,” as long as the police do not convey a message that compliance is mandatory. Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 434-35 (1991). The Fourth Amendment does not prevent police from making voluntary or consensual contact with persons engaged in constitutionally protected conduct. See United States v. Mendenhall, 446 U.S. 544, 553-54 (1980). Accordingly, a law enforcement officer does not violate the Fourth Amendment by approaching an individual in public and asking questions. Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 497 (1983). An officer may approach and question someone as long as the questions, the circumstances and the officer's behavior do not convey to the subject that he must comply with the requests. Bostick, 501 U.S. at 435-36. The person approached need not answer any questions. As long as he or she remains free to walk away, there has been no intrusion on liberty requiring a particularized and objective Fourth Amendment justification. See Mendenhall, 446 U.S. at 554.
    5
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  20. #20
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    My New to OC in Wi thread was compiled just for reasons like this. There are links on there to all the statutes, discussions in ID'ing, the different types of detentions and a ton of other info. It's a great starting point when you have a question.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

  21. #21
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Nice! I'm not tech savvy so I have a few questions: Does the phone work with T-Mobile (SIM cards?) and does it stream video and audio?
    It does work with video, however, since the phone is in my pocket, it would be streaming my crotch. As for the T-Mobile question, I do not know.

  22. #22
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    Unless you have a record of some kind, what good is getting fingerprints going to do?
    Stupid cop.

    If you get arrested for breaking a law that doesn't exist, can you sue him afterwards and win?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcav8r View Post
    Unless you have a record of some kind, what good is getting fingerprints going to do?
    Stupid cop.

    If you get arrested for breaking a law that doesn't exist, can you sue him afterwards and win?
    To get a person in the system so if they have future issues and find your fingerprints they have something to match it to.

  24. #24
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    as the tittle says, can I deny showing/telling them? reason im asking is because today I was with a friend who was pulled over. the cop told me if I didnt tell him my name I would be charged with obstruction. ... also same goes for when im carrying my gun, do I have to show them?
    While legally carrying a concealed weapon -

    §175.60(2g) CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON; POSSESSION AND DISPLAY OF LICENSE DOCUMENT OR AUTHORIZATION.

    (a) ...
    (b) ... a licensee shall have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card ... at all times during which he or she is carrying a concealed weapon.
    (c) ... a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out−of−state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.

    While operating a motor vehicle -

    § 343.18 License to be carried; verification of signature.
    (1) Every licensee shall have his or her license document, ... , in his or her immediate possession at all times when
    operating a motor vehicle and shall display the same upon demand from any judge, justice or traffic officer.

    In general -

    § 968.24 Temporary questioning without arrest.
    After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person’s conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.

    968.25 Search during temporary questioning.
    When a law enforcement officer has stopped a person for temporary questioning pursuant to s. 968.24 and reasonably suspects that he or she or another is in danger of physical injury, the law enforcement officer may search such person for weapons or any instrument or article or substance readily capable of causing physical injury and of a sort not ordinarily carried in public places by law abiding persons. If the law enforcement officer finds such a weapon or instrument, or any other property possession of which the law enforcement officer reasonably believes may constitute the commission of a crime, or which may constitute a threat to his or her safety, the law enforcement officer may take it and keep it until the completion of the questioning, at which time the law enforcement officer shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest the person so questioned.

  25. #25
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    As long as you're just a passenger, & you're not carrying concealed or in a school zone, you don't have to ID yourself.
    Remaining silent is not obstruction.
    Yes, they can still be jerks & make up false charges & make your life difficult (DAMHIK), but eventually the taxpayers that pay their salary will also be paying you for their misdeeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul
    since the phone is in my pocket, it would be streaming my crotch.
    BAD mental image. Where's the brain bleach?
    Last edited by MKEgal; 05-16-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
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