Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

Animus said:

The typical attacker won't be nanadan. Discipline and ethics are also taught, and any person that reaches the level to be dangerous won't be the type of person to go out and assault people in alleyways. That type of person is weeded out early. What's more likely will be the punk that watches too much UFC, and that guy is no danger to anyone with even an hour of real training.

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As I said, I was an instructor. I taught ethics and discipline. You keep coming up with all these different scenarios. What ifs and yeah buts. Also, Z said he didn't know M was a kid. Anyway, I can't say anymore than I have. You're gonna believe what you want to believe. Good Luck, I'm out!

Animus said:

The typical attacker won't be nanadan. Discipline and ethics are also taught, and any person that reaches the level to be dangerous won't be the type of person to go out and assault people in alleyways. That type of person is weeded out early. What's more likely will be the punk that watches too much UFC, and that guy is no danger to anyone with even an hour of real training.

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I have to disagree with that one, from personal experience.
That may well be the intent of their training ,but that by no means, precludes one from turning his back on his "discipline".
Had some clown attempt to mug me once in NY,many yrs. ago. Im guessing he thought I'd be an easy mark.
He attempted a well-executed high-kick to my head. But, he'd advertised his intent by his stance, so I knew what was coming, and avoided the hit/and responded, trapping his leg on my right shoulder.

Long story/short, he ended up with a compound-fractured support (non-kicking leg)leg, and a severed hamstring on the leg he tried to kick me with. Lots of luck, to him, on ever walking normally again. I left him where I dropped him, with the hopes he would bleed out before help could arrive, the dooshbag.

Animus said:

Did Trayvon know that he could've killed Zimmerman? Was that his intention? Teens don't fight to kill. What's more likely is that Trayvon just wanted to teach him a lesson for following him (assuming Zimmerman's account of events is to be believed). He was aiming for assault rather than murder.

I said deadly force would be warranted, but I questioned the necessity of a weapon. If you are snake to unholster and fire a concealed pistol, you're equally as able to block the punches, slip an arm over his shoulder and pull him back into a guillotine and end the fight. Zimmerman's injuries weren't even serious much less debilitating enough to prevent him from defending himself.

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This too will probably come out at the trial.

It is hard to imagine a middle class teen without a violent crime record to do serious injury to an adult.

And in the case of Z he himself did have a criminal record of mishaps with police and others.

It is not hard to see Z building up to a confrontation like this.

The jury will be faced with lots of complex arguments and issues on both sides of this case.

Animus said:

Did Trayvon know that he could've killed Zimmerman? Was that his intention? Teens don't fight to kill. What's more likely is that Trayvon just wanted to teach him a lesson for following him (assuming Zimmerman's account of events is to be believed). He was aiming for assault rather than murder.

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I take it you know this "FACT" because Martin contacted you from the grave and told you so? I wasn't aware that you had such personal insight to Martin's frame of mind; you must have known him well. Hell, you were probably even there that night, weren't you?

I said deadly force would be warranted, but I questioned the necessity of a weapon. If you are snake to unholster and fire a concealed pistol, you're equally as able to block the punches, slip an arm over his shoulder and pull him back into a guillotine and end the fight. Zimmerman's injuries weren't even serious much less debilitating enough to prevent him from defending himself.

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Perhaps they weren't "serious" or "debilitating" enough because he opted not to wait until he was too incapacitated to fight back? If someone was bashing my skull against the concrete, I wouldn't gamble on being able to put him in a headlock, and I sure as hell wouldn't wait til my brains could be scooped up in an evidence bag.

It's one thing to match wits and skill in a dojo, but it's an entirely different beast out on the streets, sugar.

PistolPackingMomma said:

I take it you know this "FACT" because Martin contacted you from the grave and told you so? I wasn't aware that you had such personal insight to Martin's frame of mind; you must have known him well. Hell, you were probably even there that night, weren't you?



Perhaps they weren't "serious" or "debilitating" enough because he opted not to wait until he was too incapacitated to fight back? If someone was bashing my skull against the concrete, I wouldn't gamble on being able to put him in a headlock, and I sure as hell wouldn't wait til my brains could be scooped up in an evidence bag.

It's one thing to match wits and skill in a dojo, but it's an entirely different beast out on the streets, sugar.

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I know because I was his age 5 years ago. A teen without a violent crime record or even an arrest record of any sort, only in trouble 3 times in school (an accurate description of myself as well) fights for respect. Fights aren't serious matters to teenagers, not until they get a bit older and realize there are actual legal consequences for them. In all the fights I had, I never once had the thought in my head that I was trying to kill or even seriously injure the person I fought. Zimmerman's minor injuries are similar to what would be expected from one of these little scuffles. Nothing in this kid's record suggests he would attack anyone with the level of force and intent that would justify killing him. If I were in his position, being followed at night by a stranger, I'd probably confront him as well. I'd like to think I wouldn't earn a coffin for my trouble, or worse have my name dragged through the mud by people that think my killer was the real victim.

SMH.

Really?

Animus said:

I know because I was his age 5 years ago. A teen without a violent crime record or even an arrest record of any sort, only in trouble 3 times in school (an accurate description of myself as well) fights for respect. Fights aren't serious matters to teenagers, not until they get a bit older and realize there are actual legal consequences for them. In all the fights I had, I never once had the thought in my head that I was trying to kill or even seriously injure the person I fought. Zimmerman's minor injuries are similar to what would be expected from one of these little scuffles. Nothing in this kid's record suggests he would attack anyone with the level of force and intent that would justify killing him. If I were in his position, being followed at night by a stranger, I'd probably confront him as well. I'd like to think I wouldn't earn a coffin for my trouble, or worse have my name dragged through the mud by people that think my killer was the real victim.

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^^^ Well said.

I cannot believe that anyone on this forum sides with Zimmerman. He stalked the kid, the cops told him not to follow him, and he continued to do so. He is the prime example of what NOT to do, especially while carrying a gun. If there is anyone on this forum that would act the same way that Zimmerman did, I would like to hear why.

Animus said:

[strike]He called Trayvon a coon in the recording I heard[/strike] (I stand corrected), but regardless, anytime both parties aren't of similar ethnicities, race could play a factor, even subconsciously. So could age, gender, social status, religion, etc. Humans are notoriously averse to differences, xenophobia can always be a contributing factor.

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So what you are saying is that when the attacker is a black gang member, and his victim is ALSO black, and even when the attacker in this situation calls his victim by the "N-word", that THAT is not racially motivated, but simple racial disparity--REGARDLESS of the righteousness of the shooting, even if it is in clear self-defense--is always suspect for racist motivation?

What school did YOU study logic at, the Jesse Jackson School of Logical Fallacies?

Dreamer said:

So what you are saying is that when the attacker is a black gang member, and his victim is ALSO black, and even when the attacker in this situation calls his victim by the "N-word", that THAT is not racially motivated, but simple racial disparity--REGARDLESS of the righteousness of the shooting, even if it is in clear self-defense--is always suspect for racist motivation?

What school did YOU study logic at, the Jesse Jackson School of Logical Fallacies?

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I think whatever school it was, was situated under a bridge. Just sayin~

Animus said:

I know because I was his age 5 years ago. A teen without a violent crime record or even an arrest record of any sort, only in trouble 3 times in school (an accurate description of myself as well) fights for respect. Fights aren't serious matters to teenagers, not until they get a bit older and realize there are actual legal consequences for them. In all the fights I had, I never once had the thought in my head that I was trying to kill or even seriously injure the person I fought. Zimmerman's minor injuries are similar to what would be expected from one of these little scuffles. Nothing in this kid's record suggests he would attack anyone with the level of force and intent that would justify killing him. If I were in his position, being followed at night by a stranger, I'd probably confront him as well. I'd like to think I wouldn't earn a coffin for my trouble, or worse have my name dragged through the mud by people that think my killer was the real victim.

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I am sorry I have to call BS on quite a bit of this.

#1 if someone jumps me I do not,and Zimmerman didn't have the time to ask "young man are you in high school, is your intent to give me a few high schoolish lumps or to kill me?". This young man was over 6 feet tall, athletic, and was hitting Zimmermans head into the ground. That it lethal force. Maybe Treyvon had gotten away with lethal force in school before without serious consequences but lethal force by definition can kill and can be met with lethal force. Bone fractures are not trifling little injuries that can be scoffed at. If e didn't realize at 17 that fights are serious things and not play he needed some better guidance. Sadly life is a hard and sometimes lethal teacher.

#2 Since you are 5 years older than Mr. Martin and have some confidence in your abilities of hand to hand combat I will allow you the inexperience of youth, and give you some advice. If someone is following you or you think someone is following you unless you have no other option DO NOT CONFRONT them, call the police and get to a safe spot. No matter your skills, no matter if you are carrying a gun, there is always someone with more skills than you that may be a better or faster shot than you. Additionally if you decided to not heed my advice and you do confront them--do not confront them with a punch to the nose, rather do so from a distance and facing them with the police on speed dial. Follow those two things and you will likely not be rewarded with a coffin.

#3. I have seen you advocate several times for Zimmerman (or someone in his place) to have used hand to hand combat to extricate themselves from the situation. Again this is your young man spirit that is talking. Zimmerman did not have your training, nor should we have to have combat training just to exist in this life. My gender, stature, and the liabilities i carry with me everyday everywhere I go (four kids) negate any ability of mine to scrap. That is why I carry a gun! Because I know I can't run and I can't fight my way out of a situation. You will not always be 23. Someday you will be 28 like Zimmerman or God willing 60 like some our friends on this board. Right now at this moment you can extricate your way out of a situation like this, you will not be able to do so forever. Don't think that your abilties are common or even commonly attainable.

Gun Totin' Liberal said:

^^^ Well said.

I cannot believe that anyone on this forum sides with Zimmerman. He stalked the kid, the cops told him not to follow him, and he continued to do so. He is the prime example of what NOT to do, especially while carrying a gun. If there is anyone on this forum that would act the same way that Zimmerman did, I would like to hear why.

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He followed and observed an unknown person in his neighborhood. There is nothing illegal about that.

Do you have any evidence or do you know of some evidence that says he kept following him. Because Zimmerman said he was returning to his truck. I have heard nothing but conjecture without any support to say he did otherwise.

Did Zimmerman make some tactical errors, certainly, did he do anything illegal. Not that we have any evidence of. We do however have evidence that Martin jumped and assaulted Zimmerman with lethal force. Sorry, those are the breaks. Even if a person is young if they attack with lethal force they can be met with lethal force to end the attack.

MamabearCali said:

He followed and observed an unknown person in his neighborhood. There is nothing illegal about that.

Do you have any evidence or do you know of some evidence that says he kept following him. Because Zimmerman said he was returning to his truck. I have heard nothing but conjecture without any support to say he did otherwise.

Did Zimmerman make some tactical errors, certainly, did he do anything illegal. Not that we have any evidence of. We do however have evidence that Martin jumped and assaulted Zimmerman with lethal force. Sorry, those are the breaks. Even if a person is young if they attack with lethal force they can be met with lethal force to end the attack.

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Respectfully, you didn't answer my question. So, you would have done the same thing that Zimmerman did? If so, why?

One punch to the head of an innocent guy, the guy dies and the killer walks. He was acquitted.
http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/ManDiesInPensacolaBeachBrawl

A younger and stupider me, maybe. My husband and I did almost the same thing once. We saw some men breaking into a car. He got out of the car and went 10 feet to get a better look at their car and get the plate number of the criminals that did it. We were young and stupid, and they luckily ran instead of coming around and fighting.

Why might I try to get a better look at someone I saw acting strangely? Perhaps my neighborhood had been the victim of break-ins, and car thefts, and I cared about my friends enough to want this to stop. Perhaps if I saw someone acting strangely and matching the description I might want the police to have a half a chance of finding out what they were up to and giving them an accurate description and location is crucial to that. I don't imagine Zimmerman ever considered that Martin would double back and jump him. A tactical miscalculation, not a criminal act.

MamabearCali said:

A younger and stupider me, maybe. My husband and I did almost the same thing once. We saw some men breaking into a car. He got out of the car and went 10 feet to get a better look at their car and get the plate number of the criminals that did it. We were young and stupid, and they luckily ran instead of coming around and fighting.

Why might I try to get a better look at someone I saw acting strangely? Perhaps my neighborhood had been the victim of break-ins, and car thefts, and I cared about my friends enough to want this to stop. Perhaps if I saw someone acting strangely and matching the description I might want the police to have a half a chance of finding out what they were up to and giving them an accurate description and location is crucial to that. I don't imagine Zimmerman ever considered that Martin would double back and jump him. A tactical miscalculation, not a criminal act.

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^^^Bold words above sum it up.


Now, if you were on the phone with the police, and they told you NOT TO FOLLOW the kid, would you do so?

Zimmerman is responsible for the death of Trayvon, Zimmerman at no time was in any danger that he didn't impose upon himself. You cannot instigate a fight with someone, and then when you start losing the fight, shoot and kill them.

This is why I say that Zimmerman gives all gun carriers a bad name, he did exactly what you should not do while carrying a gun.


EDIT: By the way, Trayvon was not doing anything wrong. He belonged in the community, and was simply walking. If he didn't belong in the community, still, he was simply walking. This is America, and believe it or not, we are still allowed to walk freely without being questioned.

Gun Totin' Liberal said:

^^^Bold words above sum it up.


Now, if you were on the phone with the police, and they told you NOT TO FOLLOW the kid, would you do so?

Zimmerman is responsible for the death of Trayvon, Zimmerman at no time was in any danger that he didn't impose upon himself. You cannot instigate a fight with someone, and then when you start losing the fight, shoot and kill them.

This is why I say that Zimmerman gives all gun carriers a bad name, he did exactly what you should not do while carrying a gun.

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Zimmerman broke off pursuit when he was told he did not need to follow him. There is no evidence that he did anything other than what he said.

Trayvon is responsible for his own death. No one was in any danger until he jumped Zimmerman. Neither had done anything illegal until Martin assaulted Zimmerman with lethal force.

Bad tactical awareness does not equal criminality. However bashing someone's head on he ground does.

Edited to add....he did something wrong when he assaults Zimmerman

MamabearCali said:

Zimmerman broke off pursuit when he was told he did not need to follow him. There is no evidence that he did anything other than what he said.

Trayvon is responsible for his own death. No one was in any danger until he jumped Zimmerman. Neither had done anything illegal until Martin assaulted Zimmerman with lethal force.

Bad tactical awareness does not equal criminality. However bashing someone's head on he ground does.

Edited to add....he did something wrong when he assaults Zimmerman

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Zimmerman was told not to get involved. Period. End of story. He decided to get involved anyway. I really cannot believe that you feel the way you do, but then again, you are entitled.

He did NOT break off when told to, otherwise he wouldn't have been in a position to have Trayvon confront him for stalking him.

He was not stalking a kid. He was following a suspicious person in his neighborhood. The "kid" was much larger than he was.

No cop told him not to follow. A dispatcher without any level of authority more than my mother said it was not necessary to follow.

It appears at that point, he broke off his following and asked the dispatcher to have the deputy meet him somewhere else.

He made some poor tactical choices at the outset. None of them were illegal, just poor. I would probably not have made the same choices. If I ended up where he did, I might very well make the same choice

Gun Totin' Liberal said:

^^^ Well said.

I cannot believe that anyone on this forum sides with Zimmerman. He stalked the kid, the cops told him not to follow him, and he continued to do so. He is the prime example of what NOT to do, especially while carrying a gun. If there is anyone on this forum that would act the same way that Zimmerman did, I would like to hear why.

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Gun Totin' Liberal said:

Zimmerman was told not to get involved. Period. End of story. He decided to get involved anyway. I really cannot believe that you feel the way you do, but then again, you are entitled.

He did NOT break off when told to, otherwise he wouldn't have been in a position to have Trayvon confront him for stalking him.

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Incorrect. He was told they did not need him to follow Trayvon and to wait for he police. That is not the same as don't get involved. There is no evidence that he did anything other than that. What you are saying is conjecture and there is no evidence to back it up.

So you are aware, it is not illegal to watch or follow someone you deem suspicious. Stalking is a crime with a specific definition and what zimmerman was doing does not match it in the least.

Dreamer said:

So what you are saying is that when the attacker is a black gang member, and his victim is ALSO black, and even when the attacker in this situation calls his victim by the "N-word", that THAT is not racially motivated,

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Blacks routinely use the word amongst themselves to "reclaim its meaning" or something like that. How could anyone argue that that attack is racially motivated when the victim and the attacker are of the same race? Is this "black gang member" a secret member of the Klan? Is he blind so he doesn't realize he is also black like one of Dave Chappelle's characters? Does he hate that he himself is black? That isn't how racism works.

but simple racial disparity--REGARDLESS of the righteousness of the shooting, even if it is in clear self-defense--is always suspect for racist motivation?

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I clearly said it could be a possible contributing factor, even subconsciously. Wait until I say it must have been the cause before you make arguments against that point.

What school did YOU study logic at, the Jesse Jackson School of Logical Fallacies?

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Self-taught actually. If I've committed a logical fallacy, please direct my attention to it so I may correct it. I hate those.