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Thread: KC OC group vs KC PD at Steak & Shake

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    KC OC group vs KC PD at Steak & Shake

    This video was originally posted on you tube in Feb and it follows the same line and end results as the incident in Washington, MO but this of course is not cop baiting by a KC group.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQJ_FJ8zsQ

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    This video was originally posted on you tube in Feb and it follows the same line and end results as the incident in Washington, MO but this of course is not cop baiting by a KC group.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQJ_FJ8zsQ
    I disagree.
    I understand the concept of folks of like-mindedness getting together. Nothing wrong with that.
    I understand your concept of "exercising your 2a right." Surely nothing wrong with that.
    I understand the idea of recording and "incident" for personal protection. Nothing wrong with that.
    I understand that the public, and even LEO, react because in most areas, this is not a "normal thing to see" and can be construed as suspicious to some in this post 9/11 era.
    But to try to convince me that idea of an encounter with either the public, or LEO, is not on the mind of the person OCing is too much of a stretch.
    Just think back to the very first time you OC'd. I would be willing to bet that each of you was nervous about the possibility of an encounter.

    Is it "cop-baiting" in its most negative sense? No.
    But it is baiting nonetheless by the mere nature of the event.
    I believe the premise behind it is to create an opportunity to "educate." (cough) To educate either the public or LEO on the legality of OC...to attempt to "normalize" it. Understood.
    Armed with recording devices and rehearsed responses (you know, the ones that you run through your mind..."if this happens or if this is said, I'll do this or say this")
    In other words, there is nothing "spontaneous" about these types of encounters.
    There are way too many videos online that reenforce my assertion.

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Perhaps if no law enforcement agents violated people's rights, then rehearsing verbal reaction drills and recording encounters with them would be unneeded.

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    Regular Member ErikO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeV View Post
    Perhaps if no law enforcement agents violated people's rights, then rehearsing verbal reaction drills and recording encounters with them would be unneeded.
    Agreed. Also, we'd have no reason to communicate on boards such as these since open carry would be 'no big deal'.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    As much (not really all that much) negative publicity as OC has received lately, LE surely must know where OC is prohibited and not prohibited. In the case of Washington Missouri, we all know at a minimum that the Washington police chief knows OC is not prohibited, in Washington. Yet there LE is, on video, using the MWAG canard to harass a citizen.

    Baiting? Really?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by lincomores View Post
    I understand that the public, and even LEO, react because in most areas, this is not a "normal thing to see" and can be construed as suspicious to some in this post 9/11 era.
    Wow, I had no idea the 9/11 hijackers were openly carrying properly-holstered handguns.

    But to try to convince me that idea of an encounter with either the public, or LEO, is not on the mind of the person OCing is too much of a stretch.
    Just think back to the very first time you OC'd. I would be willing to bet that each of you was nervous about the possibility of an encounter.
    Do you even OC? Considering the possibility, even the likelihood, of an encounter cannot be baiting.

    Is it "cop-baiting" in its most negative sense? No.
    But it is baiting nonetheless by the mere nature of the event.
    I believe the premise behind it is to create an opportunity to "educate." (cough) To educate either the public or LEO on the legality of OC...to attempt to "normalize" it. Understood.
    Armed with recording devices and rehearsed responses (you know, the ones that you run through your mind..."if this happens or if this is said, I'll do this or say this")
    In other words, there is nothing "spontaneous" about these types of encounters.
    There are way too many videos online that reenforce my assertion.
    So, your argument is that any OC done outside of one's own home, when one is carrying a recording device, is baiting.

    Bye, troll.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    O RLY?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeV View Post
    Perhaps if no law enforcement agents violated people's rights, then rehearsing verbal reaction drills and recording encounters with them would be unneeded.
    I can agree with this, but we do tend to rehearse nonetheless because of an expectation of confrontation.
    We know that to OC means to create an environment for reaction by public and LE.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    As much (not really all that much) negative publicity as OC has received lately, LE surely must know where OC is prohibited and not prohibited. In the case of Washington Missouri, we all know at a minimum that the Washington police chief knows OC is not prohibited, in Washington. Yet there LE is, on video, using the MWAG canard to harass a citizen.

    Baiting? Really?
    I'm not so convinced LE necessarily "knows" where and where not OC is prohibited or legal. I've heard some outrageous interpretations of Law and ordinances by LEOs. I agree that Washington, MO knows without doubt and that what they are engaging in is illegal and amounts to harassment.
    The very act of OC is provocative. I think that we have to admit that. Now, Whether or not the reaction to that provocation is from a base of ignorance on the part of the public and LE, or from what is perceived to be an open invitation for harassment by unprofessional LEOs is a question to be considered at each encounter.
    Knowing OC is provocative before you set out to do so is, in a sense, "baiting." Much like attending a lawful protest, exercising your 1st amendment right, can be a provocative act with similar results as OC...but you "know" that what you are doing may very well be the bait which causing the opponents to react.
    What I am "not" saying is that in every OC outing, the "intent" is to bait...I think it is a natural byproduct.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Wow, I had no idea the 9/11 hijackers were openly carrying properly-holstered handguns.
    Your comment makes little sense.
    What I meant was that the public has been steered, since 9/11, to report "what they perceive to be" suspicious activity. Since OC is not necessarily an "acceptable act" in most of our society, a person openly carrying a firearm can be considered suspicious and will prompt a call to LE. There are tons of videos that support this..."we got a call about a suspicious person walking around with a gun. That is why we are detaining you." I'm pointing out the obvious reality of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Do you even OC? Considering the possibility, even the likelihood, of an encounter cannot be baiting.
    What I do, or don't do, is irrelevant to this conversation.
    I am asserting that the very act of OC is, in a sense, baiting. As I just said above, it isn't necessarily the intent (but in many, many cases it darn well is) but it is a byproduct of the act. That is reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    So, your argument is that any OC done outside of one's own home, when one is carrying a recording device, is baiting.
    Again, it may not be the intent, but it is a reality. Yes.
    In the case of this Steak n' Shake, the manager allegedly says he is pro 2a and had no issue and that the problem was solely with LEO's. But "someone" called it in. Why? Of course we know that ignorance of the legality of OC is at the forefront, but the very "act" of OC was the bait that prompted someone to report a group of folks with firearms.
    If you were to conceal carry or not carry at all, there would have been no report of folks with firearms.
    Don't misunderstand, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't OC. I believe we all have the liberty to do so and there should be no State or local Law replacing, or amending, our Constitutional right to bear arms.
    I simply used concealed, or no, carry as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Bye, troll.
    Because someone has a difference of opinion, they are a troll?
    Grow up.

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    "Baiting", the verb, means offering something that is attractive, something the prey wants. I can't be baited by a bushel basket full of cocaine or methamphetamine, and a cop who respects and honors the law and your civil rights can't be baited by your exercise of the same.

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    As I was there, but a little late, I can guarantee that it wasn't the manager that called 911, it was two older ladies in the parking lot.

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    "Baiting", the verb, means offering something that is attractive, something the prey wants. I can't be baited by a bushel basket full of cocaine or methamphetamine, and a cop who respects and honors the law and your civil rights can't be baited by your exercise of the same.
    I couldn't agree more.
    But there is more to the narrative than the occasional informed LEO or even citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    As I was there, but a little late, I can guarantee that it wasn't the manager that called 911, it was two older ladies in the parking lot.

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
    My statement used the term "allegedly" because it was just a statement posted at the end of the video with no way to verify.
    It very well could have been two, older ladies in the parking lot.
    And that makes my point. Someone took the bait, unfortunately.

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    All cops, in Missouri, know that OC is legal in Missouri, where 21.750.3 is not used to make it illegal. Now, does any single cop know that in their jurisdiction that OC is illegal via 21.750.3? They may certainly think it is illegal regardless of whether it is or not.....Maplewood.

    What their excuse is, is that department 'policy' clutters up some cops limited mental capacity with contradictory rules that in fact contravene the law. The ole "I don't care what the law states, you OC, you will be stopped and arrested for DOC."....yadi yadi yada.

    This is understandable considering that to retain their job they must please their boss, first and foremost, regardless of the legality of their actions, before they please the citizen by following the law.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  13. #13
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    watched the video, was hoping to see something about the shotgun/ detained incident. harkened back to the good old days, and a trip 5 of us made to a Culver's in Madison. Dinner was delightful, until the cops showed up. It was a good thing that the cops only requested your I.D.'s, and didnt ask for your "agonizers'*

    (Agonizer; Star Trek Original Series: Empisode: Mirrror, Mirror.)

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    This video was originally posted on you tube in Feb and it follows the same line and end results as the incident in Washington, MO but this of course is not cop baiting by a KC group.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQJ_FJ8zsQ
    How you can compare, a group of people eating dinner, minding their own business, to a person walking down a 4 or 6 lane highway, when he has a perfectly capable car to get where he wants to go? Excercise perhaps? Walk on a sidewalk, not down the shoulder of a Highway....GEEEZE!!!

    End results?.....Your group or at least the one person that was talked to, Promoted, educated and was a proffessional during the entire time. This in MHO is why we do what we do.

    Washingtion was a mitigated failure..he Provoked, got his reaction, couldn't stand his ground and had to have his Dad take him home!!!...ok to his car.... Why was his Dad there anyway?...My guess he called him...."Daddy come save me!!"

    I am not sure if you have anymore video of your gathering, but my guess is your Daddy didn't come "save" you from the bad LEO's!
    Last edited by zekester; 05-17-2012 at 12:32 PM.
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Regular Member ChiangShih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    How you can compare, a group of people eating dinner, minding their own business, to a person walking down a 4 or 6 lane highway, when he has a perfectly capable car to get where he wants to go? Excercise perhaps? Walk on a sidewalk, not down the shoulder of a Highway....GEEEZE!!!

    End results?.....Your group or at least the one person that was talked to, Promoted, educated and was a proffessional during the entire time. This in MHO is why we do what we do.

    Washingtion was a mitigated failure..he Provoked, got his reaction, couldn't stand his ground and had to have his Dad take him home!!!...ok to his car.... Why was his Dad there anyway?...My guess he called him...."Daddy come save me!!"

    I am not sure if you have anymore video of your gathering, but my guess is your Daddy didn't come "save" you from the bad LEO's!
    +1

    Oh man this made me laugh.
    Tiocfaidh Ar La

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