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Thread: To those carrying a recorder.. Ever had it erased?

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    To those carrying a recorder.. Ever had it erased?

    Ok, like the title implies, I'm wondering if anybody who routinely carries a voice recorder to protect them from corrupt police officers has ever had their recorder confiscated and the recording erased? I can imagine something like this happening when a cop is violating your rights, and then realizes he's being recorded. How could you prevent them from taking your recorder and erasing the recording to prevent you from having the evidence? Has this ever happened to anybody? I wonder if the digital files on the recorders can be recovered after being erased if this ever happens.

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    I'll be watching this thread as well. I have wondered this too!

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    I do know there is an app for your phone that turns your phone into a recorder and it records it elsewhere so it can't be erased by anyone other than the person that set up the app. This means it would prevent anyone from serching files in your phone and deleting them. The biggest issue would be the cops turning off your phone but if you have a security screen it would keep them from turning off your app, they probably wouldn't know your phone was recording either.

    The only issue is how good your phone records.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Digital information is an interesting thing. Although you Delete information, the information is still there; it is kind of Deleted in layers--I know, sounds kind of weird. So, let's say you Deleted first a photo of a tree, then 'imprinted' another digital image of a flower, then deleted it, firstly, the digital information is randomly placed on the "recordable space." Secondly, although you have Deleted the information, you actually have not. There are programs they have now that can go back a number of layers of Deletion. Technically, although you Deleted information from whatever storage device, if you didn't explode the storage device, the information is on there.

    I know what some are thinking: If I have ten Gigs of information on a storage device, then I Delete the information, it shows that I have zero Gig of information stored. Well, you do have zero information stored...in a sense, but technically, the information is there, and can be either in it's entirety, or a portion can be recovered, as I stated, there are layers of information present, and it is randomly placed onto the storage space, which is why we have a program that is called a Defragment-or.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    <snip> How could you prevent them from taking your recorder and erasing the recording to prevent you from having the evidence? <snip>
    You can not prevent them from doing anything to you. Anything you do will be illegal at that momnet.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You can not prevent them from doing anything to you. Anything you do will be illegal at that momnet.
    That is, if it is Found to be illegal.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    On a typical PC with FAT formatting, it simply changes the first byte of the file name to, I think, E4, which is considered deleted. The file itself is still there. Then Norton and other file managers came out with secure wipes which wiped the file by over-writing the bytes with 00. (For an audio recorder, unlike a written file with ASCII data (alpha-numeric) you'd have a bunch of bytes that would have to be copied by the restore program and re-written into a format that an MP3 player could re-play.)

    This is on a hard disk drive. On a phone where it might be a formatted with a proprietary scheme, or use an electronic storage device and not a moveable drive with platters, I don't know how it is stored or marked as deleted. Generally, you'd have to pay an exorbitant amount to have a security specialist company restore your wiped files on a device like a digital recorder (like $200 bucks?). If it uses a USB port, there might be PC apps which can look at the 'drive' and see if there are bytes that can be saved to a file.

    Point is, it would be difficult and laborious. The solution is three-fold, I think.

    1. Have a recording device that is non-obvious (check your state laws)
    2. Have a duplicate recording device so that they can seize and wipe the first but miss the second, less obvious device.
    3. Have a device that is like a blu-tooth and records off site to a secure server.

    If you are OC-ing to make a political statement you would probably want to go in pairs or small groups and everyone have multiple recorders. It would be problematic to locate, seize and wipe everyone's devices and in that instance you'd have human witnesses who could testify what happened.

    There have been some odd cases where cops have been really aggressive and seized, smashed and tried to destroy recorders and phones, but it's pretty rare and I think they forget to do that in the heat of the action.

    FWIW
    Last edited by sawah; 05-16-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    On a typical PC with FAT formatting, it simply changes the first byte of the file name to, I think, E4, which is considered deleted. The file itself is still there. Then Norton and other file managers came out with secure wipes which wiped the file by over-writing the bytes with 00. (For an audio recorder, unlike a written file with ASCII data (alpha-numeric) you'd have a bunch of bytes that would have to be copied by the restore program and re-written into a format that an MP3 player could re-play.)

    This is on a hard disk drive. On a phone where it might be a formatted with a proprietary scheme, or use an electronic storage device and not a moveable drive with platters, I don't know how it is stored or marked as deleted. Generally, you'd have to pay an exorbitant amount to have a security specialist company restore your wiped files on a device like a digital recorder (like $200 bucks?). If it uses a USB port, there might be PC apps which can look at the 'drive' and see if there are bytes that can be saved to a file.

    Point is, it would be difficult and laborious. The solution is three-fold, I think.

    1. Have a recording device that is non-obvious (check your state laws)
    2. Have a duplicate recording device so that they can seize and wipe the first but miss the second, less obvious device.
    3. Have a device that is like a blu-tooth and records off site to a secure server.

    If you are OC-ing to make a political statement you would probably want to go in pairs or small groups and everyone have multiple recorders. It would be problematic to locate, seize and wipe everyone's devices and in that instance you'd have human witnesses who could testify what happened.

    There have been some odd cases where cops have been really aggressive and seized, smashed and tried to destroy recorders and phones, but it's pretty rare and I think they forget to do that in the heat of the action.

    FWIW
    $200 would be a small price to not only recover the stop, but also recover the recording of the police officer taking the device and deleting the file. As for multiple recorders, I don't feel that is something I need to look into. I don't OC for any political statement, or any statement for that matter. I don't go around OC with a recorder, hoping to be stopped so I can impress the officer with my knowledge of the constitution and laws like you see so many people doing on YouTube. Fact is, I've not had a single issue while OC to date, but hearing others talk of being stopped and illegally charged with a crime, I felt it necessary to start carrying a small recorder on the small chance I do run into a cop with a complex. Would suit me just fine if I never had to use my recorder to defend myself in court. I cannot afford to defend frivolous charges, even if I can sue the department for compensation. I'd just rather not have to deal with any of that, but I still choose to OC for personal protection.

    As for the phone app, I have looked into that, but honestly, I don't think it would be very useful. For one, my phone battery life sucks bad enough as it is. I can't see having the recorder going at all times like I do with my digital recorder, and I don't see getting an opportunity to start the phone recording after I'm stopped by the officer. Plus, I don't know how well my phone would pick up the voices during a stop. Currently, I carry my recorder on a string lanyard around my neck, under my shirt, so unless I'm actually patted down, it shouldn't eve be an issue. I was just wondering if anybody had already experienced a bad cop who destroyed the recording.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    That is, if it is Found to be illegal.
    In Missouri:

    RSMo 575.150.4. It is no defense to a prosecution pursuant to subsection 1 of this section that the law enforcement officer was acting unlawfully in making the arrest. However, nothing in this section shall be construed to bar civil suits for unlawful arrest.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5750000150.HTM
    Your state may be different.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    I have no desire at all to end up like this fella. If it was you, I sure hope it was worth the hassle and expense of getting these charges dropped, or worse, having them stick, simply so you say you showed them you knew your rights. As is proven in all their statements, they will willingly claim they noticed things like bloodshot eyes and the smell of alcohol, which obviously wasn't the case given the breath test results, but nonetheless, their statements are recorded showing they all claim to have seen and smelled the same thing, which helps lock down their claim. Same goes for their unified claim of seeing you reach for your weapon. And now that the supposed video/audio recording is gone, I bet it was hard to prove things didn't go down like they claim, so I hope not cooperating simply because you didn't want to was worth all the hassle... I say "you" with the assumption that these documents are about you. If not, then the you's can be read as "he." At any rate, I'm sure not going to risk being made an example of just so I can claim a rights violation... Especially when my only evidence would likely go "missing" during the evidence log in procedure. I can only imagine the word of several sworn officers would stand in court against an uncooperative citizen, when there is no corroborating evidence that their claims are unfounded.

    So, if it was you, care to say how this has all worked out in the end?

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    I understand that there is software available to recover still and video pictures after they have been erased from a camera. I wonder how that would work on a digital voice recorder?

    One of the folks who is catching a lot of flak for photographing cops in the Miami area mentioned the software in his blog. Fellow name of Carlos Miller in "Photography is not a crime."

    One of you guys or ladies who is more computer literate than I am should check it out and see what you think of it.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    My main recorder is the Olympus with the USB, and my secondary one is a little MP3 player that also records audio. I use the MP3 player when I workout and walk in my development (very safe, no traffic), and then utilize the recording capability as the backup without having to buy a specific second recorder. So far, being a shy, low key carrier, I've never had to use the audio and just delete it. Never had to deploy the backup.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    On a typical PC with FAT formatting, it simply changes the first byte of the file name to, I think, E4, which is considered deleted. The file itself is still there.
    I hear what you're saying. What would be cool is a recording device which always, always, always kept recording in a loop. Cops could "erase" the file, but it would always be there when you uploaded to your computer.

    Using your password, of course. If they tried it their computer would say, "blank disk."
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Qik records to outside servers....

    wear an obvious recording device that they can 'take'...

    Wear another disguised video camera that is not easily found out.. I'll leave it up to individuals to figure it out... There are a dozen every day objects with hidden cameras in them that even with close inspection wouldn't reveal their secret.

    Carry a handcuff key.... If things get THAT bad that they're destroying evidence, they probably won't hesitate to beat you up while handcuffed too... Carry a deep concealed knife in the same spot that you keep your key... A knife will easy penetrate your every day Level III/IIa armor..

    Odds are, you'll never need any of it, but I guarantee you that the officer willing to delete your evidence is the same officer that'd shoot you and find a way to justify it.. In which case you do EVERYTHING you need to do to survive.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    I read conflicting reports there. First one said that our victim used the blow test and the another said the blood test.
    Most officers said he did not roll his window down then one admits that he did.

    I wish the cops could at least tell the truth once.

    I know that when I was arrested once the cops stole my CATO copy of the United States Constitution from my back pack that was in my car.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Carry a handcuff key.... If things get THAT bad that they're destroying evidence, they probably won't hesitate to beat you up while handcuffed too... Carry a deep concealed knife in the same spot that you keep your key... A knife will easy penetrate your every day Level III/IIa armor..

    Odds are, you'll never need any of it, but I guarantee you that the officer willing to delete your evidence is the same officer that'd shoot you and find a way to justify it.. In which case you do EVERYTHING you need to do to survive.
    Great advice, if you want to get someone killed. Go ahead and pull a hidden knife on the cop. You'll never get to tell your side of the story, and their shooting would instantly become justifiable, even without them having to corroborate their stories beforehand. Let's see... "Your honor, the subject used a hidden key to break out of the handcuffs that were lawfully applied according to training, and then the subject pulled a hidden knife that was undetectable during patdown, and attempted to attack myself and the other arresting officers. Despite numerous commands to drop the knife, he continued to advance, so we feared for our lives. We had to shoot to subdue." I can promise your recording devices will be gone at that point.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    When I street video of police I use a Go Pro attached to a chest harness and then a button up shirt underneath. The Go Pro is in a sealed plastic housing. It is nearly impossible for the police to get my rig and camera off of me and out.

    Only once have they been succesful. However, the GoPro menu function is so complicated I seriously doubt they could figure out how to delete.

    I always carry my Go Pro, My Iphone and my DSLR so thats 3 recording sources. Also, I use the live off site recording programs with my Iphone so there is no way they can delete that footage.
    I gotta say, I'm amazed at the length some folks will go to try and bust a bad cop. I can't even begin to imagine having to set all that stuff up each and every time I went out for an errand. Hard enough for me to remember to turn my voice recorder on. Would it be a safe assumption to think you probably have several youtube videos up of your cop encounters?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    I gotta say, I'm amazed at the length some folks will go to try and bust a bad cop. I can't even begin to imagine having to set all that stuff up each and every time I went out for an errand. Hard enough for me to remember to turn my voice recorder on. Would it be a safe assumption to think you probably have several youtube videos up of your cop encounters?
    He seems to do this intentionally.

    When I street video of police....
    He may be doing the job that the dinosaur media fails to do. Find then expose state employed thugs and criminals. He may have years worth of footage that shows responsible peace officers....boring!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    He seems to do this intentionally.
    Anybody that would strap on a GoPro with a chest rig and button a shirt around it so it's hidden, yet still able to shoot video, as well as carry an iPhone that streams video to offsite server, and also carries a DSLR to record... Yeah, I think I'd have to say I agree with ya. Personally, I have much better things to do with my time than go around looking for conflict. Like I said earlier, I do not OC to make a political statement, or to try and have run-ins with the law. I OC because I needed some way to carry while I went through the process of re-acquiring my CHP. After having done it for a few months now, I actually enjoy the convenience of not having to dress around my firearm, or choose a small inadequate caliber firearm just so I have one on me. Purchasing my recorder was on the off chance I ever do run into an ill-informed LEO with a chip on his shoulder. Happy to say that to date, all of my audio recordings have all been deleted as soon as I returned home each time. I have no desire to spend time in jail trying to fight some trumped up charge because I deliberately set out to ruffle cop feathers. To each their own.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The only time I had a 'encounter' is when a local cop (D.A.R.E./Resource Officer), a friend, asked me (while we just happen to meet at the local QT) to help him unload a big box(s) for a school presentation. I said, no way Jose. He got all butt hurt until I reminded him that they, the school and cops, frown on XD 40's in school. Especially the one that is quite visible on my hip.

    He told me not to worry about it, I'd be with him.........'I was being called to aid the civil power'....obviously I left the heat in the truck. He is a little preoccupied sometimes but a good cop. I guess this is the kind of cop we want when we OC. This episode notwithstanding, he is, of course, very attentive and observant.

    Missouri Constitution: Article I, Section 23. - Right to keep and bear arms--exception. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question What came of this case Yard Sale?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    It looks like the person had their Driver License revoked & property stolen by Sparks NV. PD manning a DUI checkpoint. Even after it was found that the person had no intoxicants in their system. All this for not rolling down the window more than a inch? So if you roll it down you can be arrested for what they "say" they smell ... sweat odors, or whatever, if you do not roll it down they claim a smell so they can arrest through a 1 inch opening ...wow these guys are superhumans! NOT.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I read conflicting reports there. First one said that our victim used the blow test and the another said the blood test.
    Most officers said he did not roll his window down then one admits that he did.

    I wish the cops could at least tell the truth once.

    I know that when I was arrested once the cops stole my CATO copy of the United States Constitution from my back pack that was in my car.
    Wow that's a new low. Well let's hope they at least read it???
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Great advice, if you want to get someone killed. Go ahead and pull a hidden knife on the cop. You'll never get to tell your side of the story, and their shooting would instantly become justifiable, even without them having to corroborate their stories beforehand. Let's see... "Your honor, the subject used a hidden key to break out of the handcuffs that were lawfully applied according to training, and then the subject pulled a hidden knife that was undetectable during patdown, and attempted to attack myself and the other arresting officers. Despite numerous commands to drop the knife, he continued to advance, so we feared for our lives. We had to shoot to subdue." I can promise your recording devices will be gone at that point.
    And you'll read my post again, and see that I said that if he's gonna beat your ass anyway, at least give yourself a fighting chance...

    I'll bet the officer isn't expecting you to get out of handcuffs, and would not be prepared for such an attack from 3 feet away.. A quick throat stab (instinct is to grab throat and protect it after injury), will give you the split second you need to either continue the attack, disarm the officer, or break away (then you can take your tapes t o the press, then turn yourself into the FBI). You'll still get charged with 50 counts of everything they can think of, and don't be surprised if they magically find child porn, bestiality, and 'plans for a terrorist attack' when they search your computer at home (IOTW, they'll plant it to stack charges).
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    And you'll read my post again, and see that I said that if he's gonna beat your ass anyway, at least give yourself a fighting chance...

    I'll bet the officer isn't expecting you to get out of handcuffs, and would not be prepared for such an attack from 3 feet away.. A quick throat stab (instinct is to grab throat and protect it after injury), will give you the split second you need to either continue the attack, disarm the officer, or break away (then you can take your tapes t o the press, then turn yourself into the FBI). You'll still get charged with 50 counts of everything they can think of, and don't be surprised if they magically find child porn, bestiality, and 'plans for a terrorist attack' when they search your computer at home (IOTW, they'll plant it to stack charges).
    Interesting viewpoint you have. Personally, I'd rather take an a$$whoopin from a rogue cop than pull a hidden knife after breaking out of my handcuffs, and get killed, justifiably at that point I might add. I can survive a beating better than a magazine full of bullets, or better yet, an arsenal of felony charges after stabbing a cop who was just trying to subdue a suspect who was resisting and trying to escape... Which is what you become when you remove your cuffs illegally... Again, hope things work out for you if you ever try what you suggest.

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