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Thread: Traveling through UT from CA to Denver, CO

  1. #1
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    Traveling through UT from CA to Denver, CO

    Hi all.

    My fiancÚ and I are planning a road trip from our place in the SF bay area to visit her family in Denver, Colorado. I'd like to OC (and/or CC) my P99 and was looking into the different laws for the states we'll be passing through.

    Our intended route takes us through Nevada, Utah and part of Wyoming before we get into Colorado. We're planning on spending a night in Salt Lake City each way, but I don't think that changes anything as far as OC/CC is concerned.

    Here's what I've gathered:

    Notes:
    The standard prohibited areas of courthouses, public office, schools, etc. apply in all 4 states.
    I don't hold any concealed carry permits in any of the states. No time go get one, either.

    Utah:
    CC: Permit required for residents. Non-residents need a permit from a state that UT honors (all states honored).
    OC: Non-CC holders: Allowed, must be unloaded. Unloaded = "the firearm must be unloaded and require two actions to fire." No loaded round in chamber but magazine may be loaded.

    Am I generally correct in what I've been able to figure out?

    Thanks!
    Walther P99 AS 9mm
    ... loaded with Speer Gold Dot 124 gr

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    A follow-up question: Do my spare magazines (2, carried in a holster on my weak side) need to be openly carried as well, or can I conceal them under my shirt?

    I know when CA "allowed" OC the spare mags couldn't be concealed.
    Walther P99 AS 9mm
    ... loaded with Speer Gold Dot 124 gr

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntnwwnet View Post
    Hi all.

    My fiancÚ and I are planning a road trip from our place in the SF bay area to visit her family in Denver, Colorado. I'd like to OC (and/or CC) my P99 and was looking into the different laws for the states we'll be passing through.

    Our intended route takes us through Nevada, Utah and part of Wyoming before we get into Colorado. We're planning on spending a night in Salt Lake City each way, but I don't think that changes anything as far as OC/CC is concerned.

    Here's what I've gathered:

    Notes:
    The standard prohibited areas of courthouses, public office, schools, etc. apply in all 4 states.
    I don't hold any concealed carry permits in any of the states. No time go get one, either.

    Utah:
    CC: Permit required for residents. Non-residents need a permit from a state that UT honors (all states honored).
    OC: Non-CC holders: Allowed, must be unloaded. Unloaded = "the firearm must be unloaded and require two actions to fire." No loaded round in chamber but magazine may be loaded.

    Am I generally correct in what I've been able to figure out?

    Thanks!
    Yep. Enjoy your trip! Pax...
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntnwwnet View Post
    A follow-up question: Do my spare magazines (2, carried in a holster on my weak side) need to be openly carried as well, or can I conceal them under my shirt?

    I know when CA "allowed" OC the spare mags couldn't be concealed.
    Being a CFP holder, I can carry my mags any way I desire, so I have never looked into the "concealed ammo" aspect (owning a Glock [or three] I don't expect to ever have to reach for a second magazine). Right off the top of my head, I don't recall seeing anything in the Utah Statutes about the method of carry for ammo. But, don't take my word for it... sometimes I don't recall what I had for breakfast - by lunchtime. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 05-17-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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    There is no prohibition to carrying in any public office in Utah. In fact, public facilities other than schools, courts, jails and mental hospitals are specifically prevented by law from not allowing you to carry.

    The "unloaded" rule depends somewhat upon your firearm, semi-auto: not one in the chamber, single action revolver: not one under the hammer, double action revolver: not one under the hammer nor in the next chamber. If you happen to have a single action revolver like the NAA .22 that has a safety position between chambers in the cylinder, you can have all chambers loaded as long as the hammer is at rest between chambers.

    There is no law or case law in Utah that considers a magazine, loaded or not, as a firearm/weapon so it can be carried open or concealed as you choose.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntnwwnet View Post
    ...OC: Non-CC holders: Allowed, must be unloaded. Unloaded = "the firearm must be unloaded and require two actions to fire." No loaded round in chamber but magazine may be loaded.

    Am I generally correct in what I've been able to figure out?...
    When in your vehicle, a handgun may be fully loaded and concealed on your person, no permit required. But this only applies in your vehicle. Enjoy your trip!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Hey since ntnwwnet started a similar thread I'll just tack mine onto his

    My wife & I will be passing thru Utah on our way to Phoenix in a couple weeks. As I understand it, Utah honors our WA CPL's, so OC or CC as we please, but how's the general attitude towards it down there? I pretty much OC everywhere, especially when it's warm, and we'll definitely be stopping at some point going thru the state, and maybe grabbing a motel room in the north.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    You may carry ammunition any way you would like. In a pocket, a mag, taped to your chest. The only exception is having it in front of a firing pin (assuming no permit).

    For the most part OC is no big deal here. However, it all comes down to the officer you deal with. There is a case in cottonwood (a suburb on the east side of SL valley) where an OCer was charged with disturbing the peace. Not sure if that got resolved yet, but last I heard the guy hired a lawyer and was fighting it. But in general, you shouldn't have a problem. The SLC PD seem well trained on the issue, and I've not heard of problems in years. The UHP (highway patrol) is probably the best trained, as they are most familiar with state law (which preempts all local laws except on the issue of non-SD discharge). I will add that I have been pulled over by sheriffs in several counties, all were quite well informed on firearms laws, and didn't skip a beat when I told them about my loaded .45 in my center console.

    As a side note, UHP is my strategy if I ever happen upon one of those rogue officers. UHP knows the law, and is charged with enforcing state law, they might have luck clearing up any issues if you were to manage to bring them into such a situation...

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    You may carry ammunition any way you would like. In a pocket, a mag, taped to your chest. The only exception is having it in front of a firing pin (assuming no permit).

    For the most part OC is no big deal here. However, it all comes down to the officer you deal with. There is a case in cottonwood (a suburb on the east side of SL valley) where an OCer was charged with disturbing the peace. Not sure if that got resolved yet, but last I heard the guy hired a lawyer and was fighting it. But in general, you shouldn't have a problem. The SLC PD seem well trained on the issue, and I've not heard of problems in years. The UHP (highway patrol) is probably the best trained, as they are most familiar with state law (which preempts all local laws except on the issue of non-SD discharge). I will add that I have been pulled over by sheriffs in several counties, all were quite well informed on firearms laws, and didn't skip a beat when I told them about my loaded .45 in my center console.

    As a side note, UHP is my strategy if I ever happen upon one of those rogue officers. UHP knows the law, and is charged with enforcing state law, they might have luck clearing up any issues if you were to manage to bring them into such a situation...
    How's the typical attitude of the general public down that way?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    It varies, like anywhere, but in general is pretty good.

    I grew up here, and other than a brief stint in IN, have lived in downtown salt lake my whole life. As far back as I can remember I have seen people OC from time to time, and never noticed any issues at all. I have OC'd in grocery stores (smiths and walmart), a plethora of gas stations and convenience stores, banks, government buildings, and all sorts of other places, and never noticed anyone raise an eyebrow, or seemingly vacate the area. I haven't been asked to leave any private businesses, or anything of the sort. Most of the time I get the feeling that people don't even notice it. My neighbors have chatted me up about hunting when they see me loading my shotty/rifle in the car, none of them have ever seemed concerned in the least.

    Though I'm sure we have our share of anti's, and there are probably businesses who would ask you to leave it in the car, for the most part we're a fairly gun friendly state, and our laws are setup to protect your gun rights. From what I understand our preemption law is one of the best in the country.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    It varies, like anywhere, but in general is pretty good.

    I grew up here, and other than a brief stint in IN, have lived in downtown salt lake my whole life. As far back as I can remember I have seen people OC from time to time, and never noticed any issues at all. I have OC'd in grocery stores (smiths and walmart), a plethora of gas stations and convenience stores, banks, government buildings, and all sorts of other places, and never noticed anyone raise an eyebrow, or seemingly vacate the area. I haven't been asked to leave any private businesses, or anything of the sort. Most of the time I get the feeling that people don't even notice it. My neighbors have chatted me up about hunting when they see me loading my shotty/rifle in the car, none of them have ever seemed concerned in the least.

    Though I'm sure we have our share of anti's, and there are probably businesses who would ask you to leave it in the car, for the most part we're a fairly gun friendly state, and our laws are setup to protect your gun rights. From what I understand our preemption law is one of the best in the country.

    Aww man you mean you guys get to have loaded long guns in yer vehicles??
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    err, I meant putting my shotty/rifle in the car... But if you have a CCW permit, you can have a loaded rifle in your car. Not 100% sure on shotguns, but I think you can have them loaded with a permit as well, though somewhere in there is a restriction on short barrel shotguns, and I can't remember if it is a flat out restriction or if that only applies to school campuses. However, I do not keep loaded rifles/shotty's in the car, I always saw that as a safety issue, since most do not handle physical shock the way a handgun is designed to.

    There's also an odd situation where it's against hunting regulations to have loaded long guns in your car. The way they rectify that with the rights of CCW is to differentiate between weapons used to hunt, and those carried for defense. So for instance, if you had a permit, but said your rifle was used for hunting, and it was loaded, you could be charged with a hunting violation, but if you said your rifle was used for defense, it would be allowed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    err, I meant putting my shotty/rifle in the car... But if you have a CCW permit, you can have a loaded rifle in your car. Not 100% sure on shotguns, but I think you can have them loaded with a permit as well, though somewhere in there is a restriction on short barrel shotguns, and I can't remember if it is a flat out restriction or if that only applies to school campuses. However, I do not keep loaded rifles/shotty's in the car, I always saw that as a safety issue, since most do not handle physical shock the way a handgun is designed to.

    There's also an odd situation where it's against hunting regulations to have loaded long guns in your car. The way they rectify that with the rights of CCW is to differentiate between weapons used to hunt, and those carried for defense. So for instance, if you had a permit, but said your rifle was used for hunting, and it was loaded, you could be charged with a hunting violation, but if you said your rifle was used for defense, it would be allowed...
    First thing to consider is Utah's definition of "loaded":

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    As to whether you can carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle, there is some argument on this point because UCA 76-10-523 exempts permit holders from the provisions of UCA 76-10-505, however, UCA 76-10-505(3) seems to counter that exemption. There is no case law to support either position.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
    The restrictions on short-barreled rifles and shotguns applies to carrying concealed without a permit (UCA 76-10-504), possession by a minor (UCA 76-10-509.4), or possession "on or about school premises" without a concealed permit (UCA 76-10-505.5).

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    Here's the relevant law:

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050500.htm
    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052300.htm
    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
    (a) a United States marshal;
    (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
    (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    (i) unloaded; and
    (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.
    I believe that 76-10-523 specifically states that permit holders are exempt from 76-10-505, which is the law you reference as disallowing CC permit holders from transporting loaded rifles in a vehicle. It's also important to note that 76-10-505 specifically says, in subsection (1), "Unless otherwise authorized by law", and 76-10-523 seems to qualify as an authorization under law. There is room for confusion, and perhaps the laws contradict each other. We're all responsible for our own actions, and must make that decision ourselves. It seems pretty clear to me that my permit exempts me from the entirety of 76-10-505. Another thing to consider is that 76-10-523 is the same law that defines exemptions for law enforcement, and LEO here certainly feel authorized to keep loaded shotguns in their vehicles.

    But anyway, there's the law, linked directly to the state code on their own legislative website. Interpret it how you'd like

    Edit, this is something that has been debated quite a bit, here's some discussion from a more local forum on the issue: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...in+car#p146281
    Last edited by gobbly; 05-29-2012 at 03:11 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Aww man you mean you guys get to have loaded long guns in yer vehicles??
    If one has a permit allowing the carry of concealed weapons then YES!
    Not saying it is wise to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle just saying that in this particular circumstance that it is legal.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 05-29-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    I believe that 76-10-523 specifically states that permit holders are exempt from 76-10-505, which is the law you reference as disallowing CC permit holders from transporting loaded rifles in a vehicle. It's also important to note that 76-10-505 specifically says, in subsection (1), "Unless otherwise authorized by law", and 76-10-523 seems to qualify as an authorization under law...

    It seems pretty clear to me that my permit exempts me from the entirety of 76-10-505, I'm not sure how else you would interpret this...

    But anyway, there's the law, linked directly to the state code on their own legislative website. Interpret it how you'd like
    True, you can interpret it how you like, and I agree that the words of the law would indicate that you can carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle with a CFP. However, I know law enforcement officers that see it the other way and will arrest you for doing so. I also know from talking to some of the legislators involved that in the legislative discussions leading up to the changes made in 76-10-505 to allow loaded carry in a vehicle, the intent was that you could not carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle, period.

    I don't want to be the test case, especially if the prosecution happens to be privy to the legislative discussions.

  17. #17
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I teach my students that it is unlawful to carry a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle, but anyone who may legally own a firearm and is of legal age may carry or transport a loaded handgun on his person or inside his motor vehicle. Those without a permit may not exit the vehicle if doing so puts them on a public street. Under Utah and US Law, the holder of a Utah permit is exempt from the Federal and Utah Gun Free School Zone. However, the holders of a permit recognized by Utah (any permit) are exempt from the Utah GFSZ, but the Feds believe the Federal GFSZ still applies. This belief is untested in the (Federal) courts.

    You have been given accurate advice on Utah loaded vs. unloaded.

    PM me if you have an extra 4 hours in SLC and want to get a Utah non-resident Concealed Firearm Permit.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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