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Thread: What's the latest news on HB 5225?

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    What's the latest news on HB 5225?

    If I remember correctly, this is up tomorrow. Any update on this bill?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    If I remember correctly, this is up tomorrow. Any update on this bill?
    NRA sent an email saying the house judicary committee was voting on it tomorrow. They wanted everybody to call the committee members.

    What happened to Q? Seems like he would be all over this?
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 05-16-2012 at 10:29 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Save me the eyestrain- what's the bottom line on it?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    NRA sent an email saying the house judicary committee was voting on it tomorrow. They wanted everybody to call the committee members.

    What happened to Q? Seems like he would be all over this?
    Yeah I was hoping to hear from Q on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Save me the eyestrain- what's the bottom line on it?
    I'm not quite sure, it seems to have changed a bit. Something to do with eliminating PTP and registration, but here is an MGO thread on it where discussion of an FOID type card has come up.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=158908
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    From what I gather, it eliminates the need to take the safety quiz every time a PTP is picked up (which is how it is anyway, so it's a moot point), eliminates the requirement that a PTP be returned if not used, increases the time to use a PTP from 10 to 30 days, and then has a few minor tweaks to the law (such as adding that notarization be free).

    Here's the billhttp://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...1-HIB-5225.htm
    I don't see anything exciting in there
    Last edited by Yooper; 05-17-2012 at 08:17 AM.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    HB 5499 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...2-HIB-5499.htm)
    and
    HB 5498 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...2-HIB-5498.htm)

    Both are tie-bared to 5225, and seem to eliminate a bunch of the registration crap, though I'm no expert in reading that type of stuff.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I won't be able to make the meeting today. Plus, MOC has a neutral stance in the bill.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I won't be able to make the meeting today. Plus, MOC has a neutral stance in the bill.
    Why a neutral stance? What is in it that makes MOC not support it? Not questioning you, just trying to find out if there is any bad in this bill hiding somewhere.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    MOC has a neutral stance in the bill.
    Why? I am not b!tchin just wondering.

    Had an old window up, should have refreshed before typing.
    Last edited by WilDChilD; 05-17-2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: question already asked

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Surprise, surprise, the MSP spoke against the bill today and wants to keep the permit system. Update can be read in the MGO link in my earlier post.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Getting rid of purchase permits(permits to purchase, carry, or transport) creates more issues for those wishing to open carry. It has good and bad consequences based on our current firearm laws.

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    Welcome back.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinklerguy28 View Post
    Getting rid of purchase permits(permits to purchase, carry, or transport) creates more issues for those wishing to open carry. It has good and bad consequences based on our current firearm laws.
    This summarize why we are neutral and not supportive. Particularly the federal gun free zones come into effect here.

    See 18 USC 922
    Last edited by TheQ; 05-18-2012 at 12:12 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    so how does every other state that has no PP and unlicensed OC get around the GFSZ?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    They don't.

    All you can do, is claim that you didnt know the school was there.

    Best thing to do, is to get rid of this at the federal level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    They don't.

    All you can do, is claim that you didnt know the school was there.

    Best thing to do, is to get rid of this at the federal level.
    Would a CPL provide protection against the federal "gun free school zones"?

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    Yes.

    ETA, it would still be up to the state to determine whether you could be ON the grounds, or IN the school.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-18-2012 at 01:19 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    so how does every other state that has no PP and unlicensed OC get around the GFSZ?
    I posed that question on a few different forums. No one knew or found any cases where someone was charged with violating the Federal Gun Free School zone as a standalone crime. It's always an add-on.

    Nonetheless, we'd technically be advocating people possibly commit crimes by saying you can OC without a CPL. Try to walk through any urban area and not be within 1000' of a school.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    We could just close the schools...

    Just kidding. I would prefer they were open year round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Yes.

    ETA, it would still be up to the state to determine whether you could be ON the grounds, or IN the school.
    Even open carry with a CPL?, how is that?

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    Because the Federal GFSZ prohibits carry within 1,000 feet of the school, which includes of course, the school and the grounds. It provides exemption for those who own property, and people licensed by the state.

    The state you live in can still allow, or prohibit your RKBA at the school.

    In Michigan, it bars you from CC, with a parking lot exemption, and allows OC with a CPL.

    Since it has yet to be determined, but could be argued that a purchase permit would qualify as an exemption for the Fed GFSZ, you may or may not be in violation under the federal statute for knowingly being within 1,000 feet of a school while otherwise being legally OC.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-18-2012 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Because the Federal GFSZ prohibits carry within 1,000 feet of the school, which includes of course, the school and the grounds. It provides exemption for those who own property, and people licensed by the state.

    The state you live in can still allow, or prohibit your RKBA at the school.

    In Michigan, it bars you from CC, with a parking lot exemption, and allows OC with a CPL.

    Since it has yet to be determined, but could be argued that a purchase permit would qualify as an exemption for the Fed GFSZ, you may or may not be in violation under the federal statute for knowingly being within 1,000 feet of a school while otherwise being legally OC.
    Thanks, that's what I thought.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up +1

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Welcome back.
    ^^^^ +1

    @Sprinklerguy28

    Yep what he said.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I posed that question on a few different forums. No one knew or found any cases where someone was charged with violating the Federal Gun Free School zone as a standalone crime. It's always an add-on.

    Nonetheless, we'd technically be advocating people possibly commit crimes by saying you can OC without a CPL. Try to walk through any urban area and not be within 1000' of a school.
    However, people have been successfully prosecuted as a stand-alone conviction; ie charged with more than the gfsza but that alone was what they were convicted of violating. However, according to what I have read, the feds are rarely involved with these kinds of cases and usually allow local authorities to prosecute under state law. The feds usually pick up the cases after the state authorities are finished.

    I am using my phone right now, but I will update this post later this evening with a report that details a per state count. I think Michigan had something like 4 prosecutions over a 3 year time period; most of these were high-school-aged students who carried at their school. Some states, though, had numbers in the low 20's.

    Also, there have been no cases that I could find where a LTP was used to assert an exemption under this law so any belief that it absolutely would provide an exemption, although logical, is pure conjecture. Logical, but not proven.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 05-18-2012 at 06:02 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I posed that question on a few different forums. No one knew or found any cases where someone was charged with violating the Federal Gun Free School zone as a standalone crime. It's always an add-on.

    Nonetheless, we'd technically be advocating people possibly commit crimes by saying you can OC without a CPL. Try to walk through any urban area and not be within 1000' of a school.
    I understand that. It's just that we(MI citizens) have been trying to get rid of PP and registration for so long, it sucks a group like MOC who has the ear of some legislatures can't advocate for this to them. If they see a pro-2A group not supporting it, they may believe it is not something MI citizens want. Who knows the next time we may have a window to get rid of our draconian PP and registration system.

    I know there are a few bills together on this, is one of them for registration removal and one for PP removal? If so, would MOC support registration elimination is PP was kept?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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