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What's the latest news on HB 5225?

scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
Not obtuse, but playing games.

One way to support CON CARRY would have been for MOC to have participated at the Oh you know the CON CARRY Rally and have a representative there to speak and a few volunteers there to man a table.

At least you admit MOC having a presence the recent Con Carry Rally is only ONE way to support Con Carry. The organizer of the rally fully understood our reasons for not being there, as I am sure so did you. John had no problem with us not being there, clearly the same cannot be said about you. Either way, MOC certainly for supports the goal of con carry.
 

Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
Since MOCs stance on repeal of the PP has been made public I'll go ahead and throw this out there...


How can MOC support Con Carry, which takes away all necessary licensing to be exempt under the GFSZ but have a nuetral stance on PP repeal even though its the same end result? That end result being no special permit required to exercise your right.


Just so its not confused, I respect MOC's decision to get involved in what they feel is important...I'm throwing this out there more as something to think about.
 
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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
At least you admit MOC having a presence the recent Con Carry Rally is only ONE way to support Con Carry. The organizer of the rally fully understood our reasons for not being there, as I am sure so did you. John had no problem with us not being there, clearly the same cannot be said about you. Either way, MOC certainly for supports the goal of con carry.

Please explain MOCs reasons for not being there? I'm not sure I understand.

Perhaps the next rally for con carry can be organized by MOC.
 

scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
Since MOCs stance on repeal of the PP has been made public I'll go ahead and throw this out there...


How can MOC support Con Carry, which takes away all necessary licensing to be exempt under the GFSZ but have a nuetral stance on PP repeal even though its the same end result? That end result being no special permit required to exercise your right.


Just so its not confused, I respect MOC's decision to get involved in what they feel is important...I'm throwing this out there more as something to think about.

We support Constitutional Carry. We feel there would need to be language in State law exempting gun owners from GFSZA. Simple as that, no different than our position on the current bills looking to repeal PP and registration.
 

Yooper

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
800
Location
Houghton County, Michigan, USA
Lets get rid of the LTP/Registration, then work on ConCarry, with an optional permit for reciprocity. Hard to view gun ownership as a "right" when (without a cpl) even to borrow a pistol requires the government's knowledge.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Why is it such a big deal we are neutral on this bill? How many bills has MGO, MCRGO, SAFR, and CLSD stayed neutral or silent on?

It's worth noting, our neutrality was a board discussion -- something "we" decided on. It wasn't a "Phil decided" thing at all.

I wasn't planning to say anything about our neutrality...but it was all but asked about in this thread.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
I've been preaching for years that there is no such thing as the RKBA.
And you are completely totally wrong! The right to keep and bear arms has existed since time began, exists now, and will exist until the end of time...

What has happened is the government has applied so many penalties to actually exercising the right to keep and bear arms that it has become almost impossible to actually keep and bear arms without running afoul of some restrictive law.

The right to keep and bear arms is still intact... the ability to actually do it has become severely endangered.

Ok.. that might be a bit of a technicality or even seem like a play on wording... yet it is an important technicality since... although they might throw a person in prison for actually keeping and bearing arms... as long as people understand that they have the right and that a right cannot be taken away... they will fight to regain the ability to exercise that right.

But if folks think the right itself has been lost...... then believe me......... all is lost because no one will fight for something they think doesn't exist.
 
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stainless1911

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Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
respectfully, No sir

But if folks think the right itself has been lost...... then believe me......... all is lost.


It is because the people, specifically gun owners in this country THINK, mistakenly, that they retain that right, that the ability to safely exercise that right continue to decline. It is only when we realize that those rights have been restricted into worthlessness, that will get the people to fight for their reinstatement.
 

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
Lets get rid of the LTP/Registration, then work on ConCarry, with an optional permit for reciprocity. Hard to view gun ownership as a "right" when (without a cpl) even to borrow a pistol requires the government's knowledge.

I agree, hopefully we can still make some progress on LTP/Registration repeal and then keep going from there. Hopefully most MI 2A supporters will line up against our absurd PP/Registration schemes.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
It is because the people, specifically gun owners in this country THINK, mistakenly, that they retain that right, that the ability to safely exercise that right continue to decline. It is only when we realize that those rights have been restricted into worthlessness, that will get the people to fight for their reinstatement.
As long as people keep saying that the right is lost... then the right is lost because people believe that it is lost.

When people think the right is lost and anyone who tries to actually exercise it is penalized as a criminal.. then the right itself becomes criminalized. And people will shun that which has the stigma of being connected with criminality.

When people focus on how the government is making it hard.. or almost impossible.. to exercise a right.. a right the people own... then it is the government that is seen as the boogyman... the bad guy... the criminal that is taking away something the folks own.

And that perspective could change the whole battle...

But.. as long as folks keep saying the right is lost... then the battle is lost.

And those who keep saying the right is lost... are helping lose the battle. If we lose this battle of words... all is lost.

Words have meaning... and words have power... how words are used can change the world...

Let us use our words wisely.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
You are forgetting one thing,


me.



I speak from the voice of experience. I say, that we have no right, because I got my CPL suspended for something that I did not do a couple years ago. It was at that time, that I came to the conclusion that what we don't have, is a "right" the right way. We have a privelidge. I realized that yesterday I could go to this place or that, and today I cannot. That realisation made me very angry, and instead of letting it fester, I became an activist. It was then, realising that our so called "right" is an illusion.

Because of that activism, I have been targeted. Open carry doesn't make you a target for the criminal, it makes you a target for the government. For the second time, because I wouldnt become a sheep, and shut up, I was targeted. My CPL this time revoked, again for something that I did not do. If you don't believe me, ask the girl who was hurt, ask her parents. Ask them how the police were going on and on about how I had a gun, and if it bothered her, and if she wanted something done about it. Ask her why she said no, that my gun doesnt bother her, and why it was that when she said that they should let it be, that the response was that there was nothing she could do about it, the investigation was already underway. Someone unrelated to her, whose child was only a witness, was pushing for prosecution, admitting that she was uncomfortable with me having a gun. (Now she is dating someone who carries one, but thats ok). This wasn't about a little girl who was hurt, it wasn't about a bad decision. Its about open carry. it;s about activism, about not being a sheep. WHy do you suppose they threatened me with a felony? Because I fight for your and my freedoms. They wanted to take me out. Mark my words, they will find a way to do so, and as it has been twice before, I will be innocent, and most won't believe it.

Once again, I realized through experience, that we do not have a second amendment right, any more than I had the right to walk freely, or the right to privacy last Friday. I do not have the right to protect my daughter at her school, I do not have a right to exercise my right to carry for defense in my car, I do not have the right to defend myself in most businesses in this state. I do have the right to speak about these things on this forum, but I do so knowing that there will be reprisal from those in power for doing so. I have a knot in my stomach when I click the Submit Reply button sometimes, because I know that something is going to happen to me someday as a result. Paranoid? Delusional? No. Experienced.

These experiences have made me into an activist because I realize that we do not have a right to keep and bear arms. Not the other way around. I practice strength through opposition.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
You are forgetting one thing,


me.



I speak from the voice of experience. I say, that we have no right, because I got my CPL suspended for something that I did not do a couple years ago. It was at that time, that I came to the conclusion that what we don't have, is a "right" the right way. We have a privelidge. I realized that yesterday I could go to this place or that, and today I cannot. That realisation made me very angry, and instead of letting it fester, I became an activist. It was then, realising that our so called "right" is an illusion.

Because of that activism, I have been targeted. Open carry doesn't make you a target for the criminal, it makes you a target for the government. For the second time, because I wouldnt become a sheep, and shut up, I was targeted. My CPL this time revoked, again for something that I did not do. If you don't believe me, ask the girl who was hurt, ask her parents. Ask them how the police were going on and on about how I had a gun, and if it bothered her, and if she wanted something done about it. Ask her why she said no, that my gun doesnt bother her, and why it was that when she said that they should let it be, that the response was that there was nothing she could do about it, the investigation was already underway. Someone unrelated to her, whose child was only a witness, was pushing for prosecution, admitting that she was uncomfortable with me having a gun. (Now she is dating someone who carries one, but thats ok). This wasn't about a little girl who was hurt, it wasn't about a bad decision. Its about open carry. it;s about activism, about not being a sheep. WHy do you suppose they threatened me with a felony? Because I fight for your and my freedoms. They wanted to take me out. Mark my words, they will find a way to do so, and as it has been twice before, I will be innocent, and most won't believe it.

Once again, I realized through experience, that we do not have a second amendment right, any more than I had the right to walk freely, or the right to privacy last Friday. I do not have the right to protect my daughter at her school, I do not have a right to exercise my right to carry for defense in my car, I do not have the right to defend myself in most businesses in this state. I do have the right to speak about these things on this forum, but I do so knowing that there will be reprisal from those in power for doing so. I have a knot in my stomach when I click the Submit Reply button sometimes, because I know that something is going to happen to me someday as a result. Paranoid? Delusional? No. Experienced.

These experiences have made me into an activist because I realize that we do not have a right to keep and bear arms. Not the other way around. I practice strength through opposition.

Jumping Jesus in a wheat field!!!

I'm talking about how there is a difference in perspective between thinking the right is lost and understanding the right is never "lost" but is only legislated into something that has so many penalties it is impossible to actually do it...

I'm talking about how words have meaning and how those words are used has power... and that if folks would quit saying the right is lost and start addressing the fact that it is the government that is penalizing actually exercising the right... then maybe, just maybe, folks would start to understand that it is the government that is making criminals out of people who are exercising rights they were born with.

I'm talking about changing the perspective from rights being "lost" to the ability to exercise those rights, to actually do the things that are rightfully ours, being stolen from us by a government that criminalizes "rights".

And you are talking about how poor little you has been so mistreated......

Stainless... I have come to your defense many times.... but Dude... you have just lost me with that "poor me .. wah wah wah" BS you just posted.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Im not disagreeing with the content of your post bikenut, we are seeing it from a different point of view.

When a person loses freedoms, personally, they know the reality of it in a different way than those who read about it.
 
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Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
I dont think it was a "poor me" spiel as much as a statement as to how easy it is to lose the right we supposedly dont ever lose.

I would agree that there is some level of the right that still exists, but in whole we have lost it. The moment we had to start asking the governments permission to let us buy a gun and then again ask permission for them to allow us to carry concealed, we lost 90% of that right.

If it was never lost then I should be able to walk out of my house with my gun tucked under my shirt and if confronted by a police officer I should then not be arrested for felony carrying a concealed firearm, without a license to do so. However that is false, because that right isnt retained any longer I have to wait until the State says I can before I can actually do it and not fear any criminal charges. If that right was never lost there would be no threat of criminal charges. If that right was and is never lost then I shouldnt have to ask the .gov to let me do it.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Absolutely.


You see things in a certain light when you are on our side of the fence, as opposed to a neutral, or an anti, but when you have lost the right, or the greater portion of it, you gain a whole new appreciation for it, a new perspective on it, and a different desire to fight for it.

When, for example, you can carry in your car one day, and all the sudden, you find yourself at the grocery store parking lot with an empty holster, or unlocking your trunk 15 times a day, it sorta lights a fire under your butt to try to change things.
 

Yooper

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
800
Location
Houghton County, Michigan, USA
I agree, hopefully we can still make some progress on LTP/Registration repeal and then keep going from there. Hopefully most MI 2A supporters will line up against our absurd PP/Registration schemes.

The way I look at it:

"Right to Keep and Bear Arms"

W/O Registration/PTP we have a right to KEEP arms, and we have a right to bear arms in a majority of areas (though govt tries to restrict)

With Registration/PTP we do NOT have a right to keep arms, and thus, have no right to bear arms. Hard to have a right to bear something you have no right to own.
 
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