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Thread: New to OC looking for info

  1. #1
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    New to OC looking for info

    I am new the idea of OC. Until a few weeks ago I thought that only LEOs could OC and civilians needed a permit to carry. Any way from what i have learned it looks like schools, churches and post offices are off limits, But do other privet and public company or organizations (grocery stores, parks, library) have the right to tell me to leave my gun in the car? and if so do they need to have it openly posted?

    Do you often have people try and confront you on the legality of carrying? if so what is the best way to resolve the situation?

    A year or so ago my family and I were at a park in salt lake and a large dog escaped its owner and attached and killed a smaller dog not far from were my kids were playing the owners then somewhat got control over it and got it in their car. Supposing in a situation like that if the owners hand not caught up with the dog and feeling as though the animal presented a threat and shot it, or shot at it and scared it off. would that be a legal use or would i be in trouble for firing in the park?

    This is the kind of info I am looking for,I realize that some of these are legal questions and the answers I get here can not be considered law, but i would be interested all the same in your answers. If you know of were one could find fact about any of these shoot me a link.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Welcome to open carry do you have a ccw permit? If you don't then it must be Utah unloaded. If you have a permit the rules change.

    Business can ask you to leave signs carry no legal authority for business.
    You must comply or face trespassing charges.

    Where will you be carrying? I would research local laws and carry a recorder or download the recording app on your smart phone.

    Posting from my smartphone so I can give you more information based on your responses.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fam Man View Post
    Do you often have people try and confront you on the legality of carrying? if so what is the best way to resolve the situation?
    I've OC'd everywhere, daily for a couple years now. Personally, I've had far more "positive" confrontations than "negative" ones. The 2 times I've dealt with emotional people confronting me, I mostly just quietly listened. In both cases, they settled down a bit after they had expressed their concerns ("That's not legal", and "That's not safe"). For the guy who thought I was breaking the law, I recommended he take a look at this website or call the cops and ask them if he was really concerned. For the lady who felt I was a danger to everyone, we ended up having a long conversation which ended when she said it "would be safe if it was under my shirt" like her brother in law carried his. It was clear she just didn't like the sight of guns (no sheep likes being reminded that wolves exist). I told her I was sorry she felt scared, but that my right to defend my family superseded her imaginary right to feel safe. We parted ways.

    I think every confrontation will be different and don't think any "best" way exists to resolve them. My advice is that almost any confrontation can be diffused if you stay calm, state the facts, refuse to argue, or even just tell them "I'm not interested in talking to you. Have a nice day." and then walk away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fam Man View Post
    I realize that some of these are legal questions and the answers I get here can not be considered law, but i would be interested all the same in your answers. If you know of were one could find fact about any of these shoot me a link
    Almost any specific question asked here gets answered with links to the actual laws. If you want further commentary on the laws, you might buy a copy of Mitch Vilos' book http://firearmslaw.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Fam Man View Post
    ...snip...Supposing in a situation like that if the owners hand not caught up with the dog and feeling as though the animal presented a threat and shot it, or shot at it and scared it off....snip...?
    I don't fully understand your scenario, but personally if a dog wanted to kill another dog (even mine), my gun would stay in the holster. If I thought a dog was going to attack a child, then that dog would get shot.
    Last edited by leeland; 05-17-2012 at 02:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fam Man View Post
    ... it looks like ... churches ... are off limits, But do other privet and public company or organizations (grocery stores, parks, library) have the right to tell me to leave my gun in the car? and if so do they need to have it openly posted? ...
    Churches are not off-limits unless they are posted or you are otherwise officially notified. If you are notified, it now carries full weight-of-law, however, where most private property so posted does not. The same applies with private residences, also.

    Private businesses can ask you to leave for any reason. If they choose to ask you to leave because of your gun, it carries no more weight of law than if they had asked you to leave because your tie did not match your handkerchief. You face a trespassing charge if you refuse to leave.

    They do not need to be posted. In fact, posting carries no weight of law even toward a trespassing charge in this case. They must actually tell you to leave before you are breaking any laws.
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-19-2012 at 08:42 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    I might add, on the issue of churches, they must post public notice once a year to maintain the weight of law for a firearms ban. The BCI maintains a list of churches which have complied with the requirements, and last I looked, the LDS church was the only one who was listed. Also, this is not a blanket ban on church property, it is restricted to the actual place of worship. So, for instance, offices or other areas that are not used to actually worship, do not count as a church, even if those areas might be adjacent to an actual place of worship. However, they are still considered private property, so if asked to leave, you must comply, or risk a trespassing citation.

    You can find the specifics in the Utah code, which is online:

    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/CFchurch.html
    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_053000.htm

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Please watch this video and always carry a recorder.

    Video: Don't ever talk to police
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI...e_gdata_player

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    I might add, on the issue of churches, they must post public notice once a year to maintain the weight of law for a firearms ban. The BCI maintains a list of churches which have complied with the requirements, and last I looked, the LDS church was the only one who was listed. ...
    To clarify, the public notice is but one method the church may use to officially notify for the prohibition to carry weight of law. Yes, only the LDS church is using this method. But it still carries weight of law if you walked past a sign on a church door, or if you have been verbally told by church representatives.

    Subsection (2) here: http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_053000.htm
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-28-2012 at 10:04 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  8. #8
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    Yes, as far as methods of informing, however, it is also relevant to note that further subsections state

    (4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
    So though you are correct in the required public notice, they are still required to inform the BCI of such intent, and the BCI is required to post this information (and does so at the first URL I referenced). This does not apply if notice is given via signage, or a personal exchange.

    This is why I linked the actual statute, it's a little more convoluted than you'd expect, hehe.
    Last edited by gobbly; 05-28-2012 at 09:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    If you are notified, it now carries full weight-of-law
    Yes, but it is an infraction, about the same as a traffic ticket, and is not grounds to lose your CFP.

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