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Thread: School zones - Rolla?

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    School zones - Rolla?

    I'm a student at S&T in Rolla and was wondering about open carry around school zone, I now live off of 72 (was in the dorms prior) and sometimes walk around Rolla when it's nice out to go to parks, to do so I would be walking past at least one school and have not yet tried open carry much but would like to and was wondering what the laws are concerning school zones in Missouri when open carrying?

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Here are the Missouri weapons laws regarding schools:

    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.

    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
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    (10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board.
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    3. Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible....<snip>.....Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event or club event.
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    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    5. Subdivisions (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031.
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    7. Unlawful use of weapons is a class D felony unless committed pursuant to subdivision (6), (7), or (8) of subsection 1 of this section, in which cases it is a class B misdemeanor, or subdivision (5) or (10) of subsection 1 of this section, in which case it is a class A misdemeanor if the firearm is unloaded and a class D felony if the firearm is loaded, or subdivision (9) of subsection 1 of this section, in which case it is a class B felony, except that if the violation of subdivision (9) of subsection 1 of this section results in injury or death to another person, it is a class A felony.
    Federal law is another animal altogether.
    Last edited by cshoff; 05-18-2012 at 08:46 PM.

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    Not surprised to see you on here cshoff.

    So as far as Missouri law as long as I do not step on school grounds I should be good (not taking into consideration federal law).

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    Not surprised to see you on here cshoff.

    So as far as Missouri law as long as I do not step on school grounds I should be good (not taking into consideration federal law).
    That is more or less correct, however, I wouldn't ignore the Federal laws regarding schools as they apply to any area that is considered a "school zone" which is not only the premises of the school, but also within 1000 feet of those premises.

    Good to see you here, BTW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    That is more or less correct, however, I wouldn't ignore the Federal laws regarding schools as they apply to any area that is considered a "school zone" which is not only the premises of the school, but also within 1000 feet of those premises.

    Good to see you here, BTW!
    I'll tackle understanding Federal laws next, kind of afraid to attempt that, somewhere in that 200,000+ pages of USC lies the answer though!

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I'll tackle understanding Federal laws next, kind of afraid to attempt that, somewhere in that 200,000+ pages of USC lies the answer though!
    No need to fumble through all of those pages. The bulk of it is right here:

    USC § 921. Definitions
    (25) The term “school zone” means—
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
    (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
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    USC § 922. Unlawful acts (q) (2)
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    cshoff: In the laws you provided, it appears that this only applies to primary and secondary education schools. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that doesn't apply to colleges or universities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    cshoff: In the laws you provided, it appears that this only applies to primary and secondary education schools. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that doesn't apply to colleges or universities.
    The OP asked for laws regarding firearms and "schools", which is what I provided. Colleges are generally considered "higher education" facilities, however, some college campuses contain facilities for certain "secondary education" classes and accommodate "secondary education" students with certain studies and courses. I dare say that it could be a very "sticky" situation to find one's self in the middle of with the various state and federal laws that could come into play. The safest bet is to have a valid CCW permit issued by the state in which any school you attend/frequent is located, thus enjoying an exemption to the federal law and, in Missouri, to state law as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    No need to fumble through all of those pages. The bulk of it is right here:
    Anyone ever tested the idea of open carry being legal if you possess a MO CCW or does the MO CCW have specific wording requiring concealment to be applicable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    The OP asked for laws regarding firearms and "schools", which is what I provided. Colleges are generally considered "higher education" facilities, however, some college campuses contain facilities for certain "secondary education" classes and accommodate "secondary education" students with certain studies and courses. I dare say that it could be a very "sticky" situation to find one's self in the middle of with the various state and federal laws that could come into play. The safest bet is to have a valid CCW permit issued by the state in which any school you attend/frequent is located, thus enjoying an exemption to the federal law and, in Missouri, to state law as well.
    Thanks. Along the same lines as the OP's question: My new apartment (moving in about a month) is adjacent to an elementary school. Since the entire apartment property is within 1,000ft. of the school, I'm assuming I cannot go for a walk while OCing if I start at the apartment? It sounds like I would have to get in my car on private property, and drive somewhere more than 1,000ft. to begin my walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    Anyone ever tested the idea of open carry being legal if you possess a MO CCW or does the MO CCW have specific wording requiring concealment to be applicable?
    OC is legal in MO without a CCW, so it's also legal if you have one; the permit changes nothing (as far as the state is concerned). Now, since municipalities have the capability to restrict OC, some forbid it outright, while others permit it provided you have a CCW. You have to look up the laws for every county and municipality you plan on OCing in. I know, it's a pain in the a$$.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Thanks. Along the same lines as the OP's question: My new apartment (moving in about a month) is adjacent to an elementary school. Since the entire apartment property is within 1,000ft. of the school, I'm assuming I cannot go for a walk while OCing if I start at the apartment? It sounds like I would have to get in my car on private property, and drive somewhere more than 1,000ft. to begin my walk.

    OC is legal in MO without a CCW, so it's also legal if you have one; the permit changes nothing (as far as the state is concerned). Now, since municipalities have the capability to restrict OC, some forbid it outright, while others permit it provided you have a CCW. You have to look up the laws for every county and municipality you plan on OCing in. I know, it's a pain in the a$$.
    I know the CCW permit isn;t needed, however could it meet the requirement to have a state issued permit to be allowed in a school zone with a gun openly carried.

    Also, in reference to another term, the term "secondary education" only makes for a worse case as I would also walk past a technical school to go to a park. As far as universities, it could depend on state laws, of course all of this helps makes our "school zones" (and "gun free zones") much safer

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I know the CCW permit isn;t needed, however could it meet the requirement to have a state issued permit to be allowed in a school zone with a gun openly carried.

    Also, in reference to another term, the term "secondary education" only makes for a worse case as I would also walk past a technical school to go to a park. As far as universities, it could depend on state laws, of course all of this helps makes our "school zones" (and "gun free zones") much safer
    The Missouri permit would satisfy federal law for carry in a Missouri school zone, if that is your question. 922(q)(2)(A) only references possessing a firearm that has moved in, or otherwise effects interstate commerce. Doesn't mention what manners of carry would be acceptable.

    In United States v. Tait, the US court of appeals established that possessing a firearm in a school zone while also having a valid permit to carry from that state the school zone was located, was not a violation of 922(q)(2)(A). http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait.
    The ATF also produced a publication on the subject, but I seem to have misplaced it at the moment.

    The term 'school zone' as cshoff stated is also within 1000' of the school property. But the federal statutes rely on the states definition of a school. So if a facility is defined as an elementary or secondary school under that states law, then the federal law would apply to it. If it falls under the definition of a higher education institution in the state law, then the federal law would not apply.
    For definitions, you can look here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Thanks. Along the same lines as the OP's question: My new apartment (moving in about a month) is adjacent to an elementary school. Since the entire apartment property is within 1,000ft. of the school, I'm assuming I cannot go for a walk while OCing if I start at the apartment? It sounds like I would have to get in my car on private property, and drive somewhere more than 1,000ft. to begin my walk.
    The term firearm isn't a plain definition. It could be only a frame or receiver, and once you have left private property with the 'firearm' and pass within 1000' of a school it is technically a violation of federal law, if you do not posses a permit to carry that firearm from the state that the school zone is located in. But you have to 'knowing' pass through the zone zone, or you should 'reasonably know' that you are passing through a school zone.
    Last edited by Shooter64738; 05-20-2012 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    The Missouri permit would satisfy federal law for carry in a Missouri school zone, if that is your question. 922(q)(2)(A) only references possessing a firearm that has moved in, or otherwise effects interstate commerce. Doesn't mention what manners of carry would be acceptable.

    In United States v. Tait, the US court of appeals established that possessing a firearm in a school zone while also having a valid permit to carry from that state the school zone was located, was not a violation of 922(q)(2)(A). http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait.
    The ATF also produced a publication on the subject, but I seem to have misplaced it at the moment.

    The term 'school zone' as cshoff stated is also within 1000' of the school property. But the federal statutes rely on the states definition of a school. So if a facility is defined as an elementary or secondary school under that states law, then the federal law would apply to it. If it falls under the definition of a higher education institution in the state law, then the federal law would not apply.
    For definitions, you can look here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
    Yes, but does MO CCW law make any such requirement for the permit to apply to lawful carry it must be concealed thereby nullifying the permit as valid for open carry in a school zone or does the MO CCW law only mention it makes lawful the concealment of arms otherwise illegal to conceal upon one's person? Either way in exactly 9 months I will be applying for my CCW permit as there are places where concealed is preferred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    Yes, but does MO CCW law make any such requirement for the permit to apply to lawful carry it must be concealed thereby nullifying the permit as valid for open carry in a school zone or does the MO CCW law only mention it makes lawful the concealment of arms otherwise illegal to conceal upon one's person? Either way in exactly 9 months I will be applying for my CCW permit as there are places where concealed is preferred.
    If I understand your question properly, no, there is no requirement that you must conceal your firearm in order to gain protections that the permit establishes. If it is legal to open carry a firearm in your jurisdiction and you posses a valid Missouri concealed weapons permit, you may carry your firearm openly, and still be exempted from the state crimes that would apply if you did not have a permit. The second portion of your post is correct. However, although you may possess a permit to conceal, and it does provide several exceptions to Missouri law, you must still verify that your jurisdiction allows open carry as it does not provide any protection against the local ordinance of open carry in an open carry prohibited jurisdiction.

    For example it is a chargeable offense to carry your firearm in a school, or on a school bus. But with a permit to carry concealed weapons, Missouri law makes an exception.
    The offense:
    571.030.1(10) - Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board.
    The exception:
    571.030.4 - Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    The exception doesn't say the weapon must be concealed. It only states that possessing a valid permit from Missouri or any other state or political subdivision provides an exception to offense (10).

    I believe this is what HighFlyA380 was alluding to above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter64738 View Post
    If I understand your question properly, no, there is no requirement that you must conceal your firearm in order to gain protections that the permit establishes. If it is legal to open carry a firearm in your jurisdiction and you posses a valid Missouri concealed weapons permit, you may carry your firearm openly, and still be exempted from the state crimes that would apply if you did not have a permit. The second portion of your post is correct. However, although you may possess a permit to conceal, and it does provide several exceptions to Missouri law, you must still verify that your jurisdiction allows open carry as it does not provide any protection against the local ordinance of open carry in an open carry prohibited jurisdiction.

    For example it is a chargeable offense to carry your firearm in a school, or on a school bus. But with a permit to carry concealed weapons, Missouri law makes an exception.
    The offense:

    The exception:


    The exception doesn't say the weapon must be concealed. It only states that possessing a valid permit from Missouri or any other state or political subdivision provides an exception to offense (10).

    I believe this is what HighFlyA380 was alluding to above.

    That answered it well enough.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    WG - You do realize that there are several non-resident CCW endorsements you could probably qualify for now, without having to wait 9 months, don't you? Any of them would at least provide you with exemptions to certain "unlawful use of weapons" laws here in MO as well as make OC legal for you in jurisdictions that require a valid CCW permit if you OC. And most are very reasonably priced. Just a thought.

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    WG - You do realize that there are several non-resident CCW endorsements you could probably qualify for now, without having to wait 9 months, don't you? Any of them would at least provide you with exemptions to certain "unlawful use of weapons" laws here in MO as well as make OC legal for you in jurisdictions that require a valid CCW permit if you OC. And most are very reasonably priced. Just a thought.
    The only problem with that, as I've been told, is that the GFSZ exemption would not apply, since the school zone is not in the state which issued the permit. At least, that's how it was explained to me, since I have my Non-res Maine CCW, and not a MO CCW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    The only problem with that, as I've been told, is that the GFSZ exemption would not apply, since the school zone is not in the state which issued the permit. At least, that's how it was explained to me, since I have my Non-res Maine CCW, and not a MO CCW.
    That is correct. In order to enjoy the exemption to Federal Code 922(q)(2)(A) - (not to be confused with the GFSZ Act) - the "license" must be issued by the state in which the "school zone" is located.

    However, there ARE some exemptions to STATE law that a non-resident permit holder enjoys that somebody who does not have a permit won't enjoy. Specifically, those are exemptions to RSMO 571.030.1(1)(8) & (10) as specified in RSMO 571.030.4. Those exemptions make it well worth having a valid CCW permit, IMHO, regardless of any federal law.

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    ....Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event or club event.
    CCW endorsement not required.

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    If you have a CCW endorsement/permit.

    Remember, if the 'school' gives permission (in writing of course) you can not be charged under RSMo 571.030. Considering that it takes a local cop to get a FBI guy to bust you for a 922 violation.
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    CCW endorsement not required.

    If you have a CCW endorsement/permit.

    Remember, if the 'school' gives permission (in writing of course) you can not be charged under RSMo 571.030. Considering that it takes a local cop to get a FBI guy to bust you for a 922 violation.
    Local police may arrest you, and hold you on, a violation of federal law. They then turn it over to federal prosecutors and appropriate federal law enforcement agencies for prosecution.

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