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Thread: Full size 9mm with thumb safety or DA/SA?

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    Full size 9mm with thumb safety or DA/SA?

    I'm looking for a good full size 9mm platform with manual safety or a DA/SA with decocker, worst case I can't find a private sale and have to wait until I turn 21 to buy one new. Currently I'm looking at SIG P226, CZ 75B, Ruger SR9 (not a big fan of the safety location and size though), Ruger P95, and Beretta 92FS/M9 a distant possibility is a Zastava M88 but that seems to be more of a car gun than a carry weapon. I'm not a big fan of DAO except on more CCW style guns where the safety gets to be too small to easily manipulate. I currently OC with my M&P 40 compact, great gun but I am not comfortable with the the trigger safety method as it can be pulled on a snag far easier than a Glock style trigger safety blade can, I'll keep the gun for a HD weapon, but it's not ideal OC or CC weapon for me.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The transition between DA and SA is far from easy to get good at.

    Ideally, a constant action pistol like your M&P should be carried. Your safety is having a good holster, and not screwing around and drawing and reholstering aimlessly.

    Nothing wrong with going DA/SA, but you will need significantly more practice time. Any good manufacturer that meets your specs will do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The transition between DA and SA is far from easy to get good at.

    Ideally, a constant action pistol like your M&P should be carried. Your safety is having a good holster, and not screwing around and drawing and reholstering aimlessly.

    Nothing wrong with going DA/SA, but you will need significantly more practice time. Any good manufacturer that meets your specs will do.
    One of the reasons I like the idea of a manual safety pistol I can carry cocked and locked, particularly the CZ 75B, as far as DA/SA with decocker, no problem with needing to put rounds down range to train, I had a Bersa Thunder 380 for a while and it had a decocker safety so not too big of a deal.

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    Apex makes a "glock" style aluminum trigger for your m&p for $75 which also improves the trigger pull. It's called the aek.

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Aren't both the M&P and the XD available with optional manual safeties?

    Also, I'm curious about your assertion that the M&P trigger safety is somehow less effective than the blade-type safety on Glock/Steyr/SR9/etc. What evidence or experience suggests that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Aren't both the M&P and the XD available with optional manual safeties?

    Also, I'm curious about your assertion that the M&P trigger safety is somehow less effective than the blade-type safety on Glock/Steyr/SR9/etc. What evidence or experience suggests that?

    I hate XD's, as far the the M&P with thumb safety, I don't like it, it's only on there to satisfy some requirements by police departments and certain states and some customers, but to be it's unnecessary extra as the gun is still DAO either way. As far as the triggers, a blade is harder to get to than a hinged trigger to me, I've had my M&P fire with the corner caught (primer only shell for testing the trigger), a blade is harder to catch accidentally, though once a blade is caught it does have greater leverage and therefore higher chance it'll fully pull the trigger so it's a trade off between the two methods, but ultimately between the two I would take a blade trigger or neither and an manual external safety DA/SA.

    This does bring up a list of pistols I don't want:
    XD
    M&P
    Caracal
    Steyer

    At this point the strongest contender is a CZ 75 B then Sig if I can find one used, of course a Glock 17 Gen 3 or Gen 4 wouldn't be bad, but I still don't think they are worth the $499 mandatory minimum price nor do I like the Glock fan boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I hate XD's, as far the the M&P with thumb safety, I don't like it, it's only on there to satisfy some requirements by police departments and certain states and some customers, but to be it's unnecessary extra as the gun is still DAO either way. As far as the triggers, a blade is harder to get to than a hinged trigger to me, I've had my M&P fire with the corner caught (primer only shell for testing the trigger), a blade is harder to catch accidentally, though once a blade is caught it does have greater leverage and therefore higher chance it'll fully pull the trigger so it's a trade off between the two methods, but ultimately between the two I would take a blade trigger or neither and an manual external safety DA/SA.

    This does bring up a list of pistols I don't want:
    XD
    M&P
    Caracal
    Steyer

    At this point the strongest contender is a CZ 75 B then Sig if I can find one used, of course a Glock 17 Gen 3 or Gen 4 wouldn't be bad, but I still don't think they are worth the $499 mandatory minimum price nor do I like the Glock fan boys.
    Why the dislike for the M&P? I'd say it is more of a striker fired pistol than a DAO. It certainly does not imply the heavy revolver style DAO trigger press. The action is basically the same as a glock. The thumb safety variant is the same as a 1911. I have one with the thumb safety and one without and like them both just fine. I'd say the thumb safety on the M&P is just as extraneous as the grip safety on the 1911 (added only by JMB himself because the Army insisted on it). With a simple drop-in part (the Apex DAEK) you can get a fine trigger in an M&P, and with an FSS from the same folks the trigger feels more like a 1911. Maybe I'm an M&P fanboy but I think it might be worth a second look.

    I also have a Beretta 96 and a fair amount of experience with the Beretta 92... While the DA/SA is something you can learn it takes a fair amount of practice and dry fire. It is also a perishable skill, I have to refresh myself on that trigger from time to time.

    It sounds like what you really may want is a 1911-style design in 9mm... In which case something built off the Browning HiPower like the CZ75 makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I hate XD's, as far the the M&P with thumb safety, I don't like it, it's only on there to satisfy some requirements by police departments and certain states and some customers, but to be it's unnecessary extra as the gun is still DAO either way. As far as the triggers, a blade is harder to get to than a hinged trigger to me, I've had my M&P fire with the corner caught (primer only shell for testing the trigger), a blade is harder to catch accidentally, though once a blade is caught it does have greater leverage and therefore higher chance it'll fully pull the trigger so it's a trade off between the two methods, but ultimately between the two I would take a blade trigger or neither and an manual external safety DA/SA.

    This does bring up a list of pistols I don't want:
    XD
    M&P
    Caracal
    Steyer

    At this point the strongest contender is a CZ 75 B then Sig if I can find one used, of course a Glock 17 Gen 3 or Gen 4 wouldn't be bad, but I still don't think they are worth the $499 mandatory minimum price nor do I like the Glock fan boys.
    While I am never one to-in good, clear conscience, to advise a 9mm for carry, there are some great 9mm pistols, out there that fit your bill. I think youre on the right track with the CZ, or with a Browning Hi Power type.
    I know what you mean on the DA/SA thing as well. And I agree. I personally prefer having a thumb-safety/de-cocker, myself.
    I prefer hammer-fired pistols to striker-fired, etc.
    And no, DA/SA, transition, on a good pistol so equipped, is really not that much of an issue to get the hang of, with practice.
    If one is sitting at a range punching holes in paper, trying to be a target-shooting master, maybe, but under duress, and in actual action, you wont even remotely notice it. Your fine motor-skills are just NOT going to be that sensitive to it when the adreniline is pumping.
    One thing I do though, is practice often with a snap-cap, doing DA trigger pulling. This gets the finger used to that DA trigger pull. SA, Im already well accustomed to, from previous 1911a1 carry for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armaborealis View Post
    Why the dislike for the M&P? I'd say it is more of a striker fired pistol than a DAO. It certainly does not imply the heavy revolver style DAO trigger press. The action is basically the same as a glock. The thumb safety variant is the same as a 1911. I have one with the thumb safety and one without and like them both just fine. I'd say the thumb safety on the M&P is just as extraneous as the grip safety on the 1911 (added only by JMB himself because the Army insisted on it). With a simple drop-in part (the Apex DAEK) you can get a fine trigger in an M&P, and with an FSS from the same folks the trigger feels more like a 1911. Maybe I'm an M&P fanboy but I think it might be worth a second look.

    I also have a Beretta 96 and a fair amount of experience with the Beretta 92... While the DA/SA is something you can learn it takes a fair amount of practice and dry fire. It is also a perishable skill, I have to refresh myself on that trigger from time to time.

    It sounds like what you really may want is a 1911-style design in 9mm... In which case something built off the Browning HiPower like the CZ75 makes sense.
    Whether or not the gun makes use of a hammer or a striker has nothing to do with it action type. Technically, the M&P pistol is a SAO (Single Action Only) because the trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker to fire a cartridge. But S&W classes it as a DAO. Remember, the action type of a handgun is dictated by what the trigger does.

    For a really fine M&P trigger, install the Apex DCAEK but when you do, do not install their trigger spring.. keep the OEM factory spring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Whether or not the gun makes use of a hammer or a striker has nothing to do with it action type. Technically, the M&P pistol is a SAO (Single Action Only) because the trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker to fire a cartridge. But S&W classes it as a DAO. Remember, the action type of a handgun is dictated by what the trigger does.

    For a really fine M&P trigger, install the Apex DCAEK but when you do, do not install their trigger spring.. keep the OEM factory spring.
    True. But some of us old-school-types, just prefer having a hammer that can be manually cocked, as an option. As well as the trigger action.
    As an example- In normal, around-the-house carry, I usually carry my .45 in DA- hammer-down, safety on. I've practiced my draw for -draw pistol, thumb-off the safety,cock the hammer- as Im bringing it up to hi-ready/aiming, to where I have that down pat.
    BUT, when I go into town, or into areas where I know the potential need for it's use is higher than normal, I go Condition 1, with it. Im used to both, practiced at both, comfy with both methods.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    True. But some of us old-school-types, just prefer having a hammer that can be manually cocked, as an option. As well as the trigger action.
    As an example- In normal, around-the-house carry, I usually carry my .45 in DA- hammer-down, safety on. I've practiced my draw for -draw pistol, thumb-off the safety,cock the hammer- as Im bringing it up to hi-ready/aiming, to where I have that down pat.
    BUT, when I go into town, or into areas where I know the potential need for it's use is higher than normal, I go Condition 1, with it. Im used to both, practiced at both, comfy with both methods.
    I have two 1911's and a Browning Hi-Power Mark III-S. All are fine guns but I must admit that I have never been comfortable carrying these single action gems in Condition 1. It's just me and I do know that is how they were designed and intended to be carried.

    For my self defense guns, I much prefer a quality DAO with no external safeties of any kind to worry about. None of my M&P's have an external safety. Proper holsters and proper handling will virtually eliminate any problems with such a firearm in full battery.

    Another thing which is a petty gripe of mine relates to current terminology. What many refer to nowadays as DA/SA (EX: the Beretta 92FS) is actually a DA and by virtue of that, it is also a SA. Years ago, you never heard the term "DA/SA" because it didn't exist. I believe it came about to assuage confusion felt by new gun owners when speaking about DA pistols. So I never refer to pistols such as the 92FS as a DA/SA. Just an annoyance to me.

    Now as for the M&P vs the Glock action design, the Glock is a true DAO and I have confirmed this with a technical person at their factory (not that this was necessary). The trigger performs two tasks. It completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker. The M&P pistol, like the Springfield XD series, is a SAO because once the slide is racked, the striker is held in full cock so the trigger does not move the striker... it only releases the striker. However, M&P and Springfield (probably in concert with the BATFE) have designated these designs to fall under the DAO umbrella.
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    I have the Sig P226 E2 version ( although, I guess they already stopped making the E2 version. They say that people liked the new grip so much that they no longer call it an E2, they just applied the new grip to their other P226 versions). Anyway, I love,love,love this gun. They are expensive, but I feel they are worth it. Like the man said, with adrenaline flowing, you wouldn't even notice the double action trigger. If you had to make a more accurate shot, just pull the hammer back. Mine is 40 cal., a nice marriage between a little more power than a 9, and a little more capacity than a 45. Never had any kind of hiccups with any kind of ammo. My son has the regular P226 with the regular grips. My hands are large enough that either grip feels okay. But that E2 grip is really nice. Also my wife and daughters shoot it, and it fits them a lot nicer. You should check out those grips if you have the opportunity. It may be worth a few extra bucks. Like I said, I know it's expensive and I worked a little overtime to get mine. Although I will buy other handguns (cause I like them), I feel that my P226 is my handgun for life. It's the one that I will pass down when I'm gone. P.S. Where you typed Sig P226 in your post and I typed it in my reply, it got highlighted and if you click on it, it takes you to an airsoft P226. Just to be clear, I am talking about a real gun. (9 or 40) I know you are too.
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    Never been terribly fond of the Xd or M&P, myself. Not knocking them at all, just they arent my "cup of tea".
    My 845 is true double-action or 1st shot- if not carried Condition 1. It also has second-strike capability, in that if the hammer is down on a chambered round, trigger pulled, hammer-released, and round mis-fires, you can pull the trigger again to try a second time-(personally, I'd just rack,slap,release like the old ways, I think),but that is the option with this action.
    Subsequent shots are SA ,for the rest of the mag.
    I actually like the trigger-pull on the DA 1st shot enough that it's not an issue for me. Once the pistol was "broken-in" I find it a very smooth, even, moderate pull. Smooth enough, and moderate enough, that the transition from DA to SA has not been an issue in the least.

    I grew up and learned on 1911's, so the placement of the controls, etc. on this piece are natural for me. (minus the grip safety, which I have come to like the feel of) I also prefer being able safely de-cock the hammer, when desired-vs. pulling trigger/holding hammer to de-cock like with the 1911s. Never happened for me, but -who knows? Under stress, or shakes or just plain, old arthritis flaring-up, could pose a problem for me with 1911's, doing that.Prefer not to risk that these days, just in case.

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    The next gun I'm looking at for a backup or more CC version is a compact ( but it comes in full size, compact, or sub compact versions). And while some don't like the company, but I've researched it and got a lot of good reviews, is a Taurus 24/7 G2. It doesn't have a hammer. But it is a DA/SA with a safety/decocker toggle type button. After you rack a round, you can push it up for safety and SA or down for decock and DA. on your first shot. (anybody correct me if I am wrong on this) I haven't shot one yet,but I have held one and it felt real good in the hand. Also a lot of other nice features, "strike two" trigger, interchangeable grip sizes,etc. You might want to go to: http://www.taurususa.com/hot_items.cfm and check them out. also they come in 9,40 and 45. You can get them between 4 and 5 hundred.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    The next gun I'm looking at for a backup or more CC version is a compact ( but it comes in full size, compact, or sub compact versions). And while some don't like the company, but I've researched it and got a lot of good reviews, is a Taurus 24/7 G2. It doesn't have a hammer. But it is a DA/SA with a safety/decocker toggle type button. After you rack a round, you can push it up for safety and SA or down for decock and DA. on your first shot. (anybody correct me if I am wrong on this) I haven't shot one yet,but I have held one and it felt real good in the hand. Also a lot of other nice features, "strike two" trigger, interchangeable grip sizes,etc. You might want to go to: http://www.taurususa.com/hot_items.cfm and check them out. also they come in 9,40 and 45. You can get them between 4 and 5 hundred.
    I dont think it would be a bad choice, at all, actually. I love my 845. It has the features I was seeking, handles and shoots very well, and has -thus far (I so hate jynxing things not matter what make/model) been 100% reliable.
    Another option to consider, along same lines, may be one of the compact 800-series models-same layout, function as my full-size 845, just a bit smaller, and with the hammer, etc. They are often found for a little less $$ than the 24/7's ,which I've found-(locally,anyway), to command a bit over MSRP in pricing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    While I am never one to-in good, clear conscience, to advise a 9mm for carry, there are some great 9mm pistols, out there that fit your bill. I think youre on the right track with the CZ, or with a Browning Hi Power type.
    I know what you mean on the DA/SA thing as well. And I agree. I personally prefer having a thumb-safety/de-cocker, myself.
    I prefer hammer-fired pistols to striker-fired, etc.
    And no, DA/SA, transition, on a good pistol so equipped, is really not that much of an issue to get the hang of, with practice.
    If one is sitting at a range punching holes in paper, trying to be a target-shooting master, maybe, but under duress, and in actual action, you wont even remotely notice it. Your fine motor-skills are just NOT going to be that sensitive to it when the adreniline is pumping.
    One thing I do though, is practice often with a snap-cap, doing DA trigger pulling. This gets the finger used to that DA trigger pull. SA, Im already well accustomed to, from previous 1911a1 carry for years.
    I'm more than comfortable with 9mm as a carry round, especially in a full size pistol, in a compact it gets more questionable as the speed advantage gets less and less to the point I would go for heavier rounds. I figure the CZ 75 should have a good enough trigger to make the DA just heavier, not necessarily harder to pull due to roughness. As for under stress trigger DA v SA makes very little difference, learned that with a .357 while hunting when a rabid dog that came out of a brush pile and started running toward me (he didn't make it to me).

    As far as a 1911, I'm not sold on them just yet, though I've come around to them a lot more compared to a few years ago.

    And as to SIG P226, they are appealing but the price for a duty type weapon compared to a CZ 75 B makes me shy away for now, but there's always graduation to get myself a gift like that, though I fear I would need a Dillon press to go with it!

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    I was looking at the CZ website. I've always liked the looks of them. I noticed that their safety/decocker is safety OR decocker. Which ever one you don't want, you simply take it out and replace it with the one you do want.(both come with it) I'm pretty sure that with the Taurus 24/7 G2, it's a safety AND decocker. Up for safety and SA or down for decocker and DA. ( again, anybody correct me if need be, or affirm my thoughts if I am correct, Thanks! )
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    I was looking at the CZ website. I've always liked the looks of them. I noticed that their safety/decocker is safety OR decocker. Which ever one you don't want, you simply take it out and replace it with the one you do want.(both come with it) I'm pretty sure that with the Taurus 24/7 G2, it's a safety AND decocker. Up for safety and SA or down for decocker and DA. ( again, anybody correct me if need be, or affirm my thoughts if I am correct, Thanks! )
    I believe the Safety/decocker combo is only on the P-07 Duty as they make a 75 B (safety) and 75 BD (decocker) as well as 75 B SA (safety, single action only) the 75 is only one or the other as the frames and internals are different.

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    The Beretta M9 certainly fits the profile. It's a decent gun with a good reputation. Taurus is making a copy of this model and their quality has improved quite a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I believe the Safety/decocker combo is only on the P-07 Duty as they make a 75 B (safety) and 75 BD (decocker) as well as 75 B SA (safety, single action only) the 75 is only one or the other as the frames and internals are different.
    The most innovative feature of the P-07 duty is the
    Omega trigger system. The new mechanism was
    first introduced on the P-07 model. It simplifies the
    CZ 75 trigger system, uses fewer parts and improves
    the trigger pull, but the real story is in the versatility
    it provides for its owner. The Omega system allows
    users to choose between operating the handgun
    with a decocking lever (installed) or a manual safety
    (included) by a simple parts change.


    I took this from CZs website. It appears you have to make a choice to either have the decocker or a safety, but not both.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I recommend the Walther
    P99AS. It's an amazing gun, feels great to shoot. Shoots straight. Has a decocker but no thumb safety.

    The trigger has three different pulls, long and hard(snickers), long and soft(ED much?) And short and soft(like most men when confronted with the slaughter of beautiful weaponry).

    Sorry about the comments, that's the teenage boy in me taking over. *blushes*

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    The most innovative feature of the P-07 duty is the
    Omega trigger system. The new mechanism was
    first introduced on the P-07 model. It simplifies the
    CZ 75 trigger system, uses fewer parts and improves
    the trigger pull, but the real story is in the versatility
    it provides for its owner. The Omega system allows
    users to choose between operating the handgun
    with a decocking lever (installed) or a manual safety
    (included) by a simple parts change.


    I took this from CZs website. It appears you have to make a choice to either have the decocker or a safety, but not both.
    I was referring to the combination of either safety or decocker on one gun as opposed to one or the other from the factory, that's only on the P-07 Duty also which I'm not too interested in as it's grip is even wider than the 75 B and the compact size isn't something I really want for this gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I recommend the Walther
    P99AS. It's an amazing gun, feels great to shoot. Shoots straight. Has a decocker but no thumb safety.

    The trigger has three different pulls, long and hard(snickers), long and soft(ED much?) And short and soft(like most men when confronted with the slaughter of beautiful weaponry).

    Sorry about the comments, that's the teenage boy in me taking over. *blushes*

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    I've handled a Walther P99AS, it wasn't bad, but not something I'm a big fan of.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I haven't seen anyone mention it, so I'll throw this into the mix - -
    FN FNX in either 9mm or .40S&W
    Hammer fired
    Capable of being carried Single Action with a thumb safety.
    Capable of being carried DA/SA with a thumb safety.
    Thumb safety can act as a decocker (far preferable to lowering a hammer manually).
    Ships with Three magazines, no more hunting for that last one to make a complete set.


    If I hadn't purchased an M&P, I'd probably have gotten an FNX.

  25. #25
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    If considering a Beretta 92, I'd lean towards the Taurus version for the safety position and better warranty.

    P95 does the job, and the price is right.

    Otherwise, CZ75b or similar sounds like what you're looking for. I sort of think of it as a more practical 1911.

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