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Thread: Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...comment-275161

    My initial thoughts



    I admit that everyone could benefit by self defense training. Especially when I see 200 lbs women OCing with badges and uniforms, I shake my head.

    Cali is not a valid example. Cali went commie a long time ago. Their OC loophole was just that.

    There are yahoos.

    People going about their business normalize guns and the second amendment. Even to people around the world.

    You could indeed become a target by openly carrying a handgun, but I think bad guys want soft targets.

    Is this self defense expert saying wearing a gun openly makes you a softer target to a criminal? That sounds nuts to me.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-20-2012 at 12:32 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...comment-275161

    Especially when I see 200 women OCing with badges and uniforms, I shake my head.
    Just women?

  3. #3
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Just women?
    I fixed it. I meant fat women cops that I sometimes see. He probably wouldn't question their OC.
    Last edited by 77zach; 05-20-2012 at 12:34 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I fixed it. I meant fat women cops that I sometimes see. He probably wouldn't question their OC.

    LOLWUT!?

    EDIT: Removed GIF, too large of a file size to load quickly enough, was bogging down page.

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    Thumbs up

    I left him a nice little love note in the comments section.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
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    Regular Member dukenukum's Avatar
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    Angry

    What makes these guys such "experts"? Who anointed them the end all of carrying a firearm? they have opinions in place of facts. I left a comment for them.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Concealed Carry is BIG business. Training, CC holsters and permit fees are a multi-million dollar industry in the US. People involved in selling these goods and services are usually the loudest detractors of OC--even more so than the "anti's", because if everyone who wanted to carry for Self Defense just started OCing, they would be out millions of dollars...

    ICE Training (Mr. Pincus's company) is based in New Jersey.

    'nuff sed...

    Looking through his YouTube library, he appears to be an opinionated, self-agrandizing, contentious, and pompous a$$hat. I wouldn't pay this guy to train someone how to correctly peel a banana...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-20-2012 at 02:45 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    opinions are like A$$holes everybody has one and some just are one
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    I've liked Mr. Pincus's and Mr. Yeager's opinions in the past on self defense. They both have made a lot of good points. I wouldn't mind taking training from either one. I could always learn more. But, there are advantages and disadvantages to both OC and CC. If it is legal to OC , then instead of pressing their opinion, maybe they should incorporate OC tactics into their training. They are entitled to their own opinion, but since they have a much broader platform and make so much money off of the industry. They shouldn't bad mouth an aspect of carrying a firearm that is legal and a personal decision. A person could live because of the choice between OC vs. CC, or a person could die because of the choice between OC vs. CC. It's not up to Mr. Pincus or Mr. Yeager to make that choice. Just like it's not anybody's choice, other than our own, to carry a firearm at all.
    watch your top knot !

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    He also recommends showing ID when asked if you are OCing, and on his show The Best Defense, he shows a guy getting arrested for not showing ID and says something to the effect of, "this is what will likely happen if you don't show ID." Oh, and when you do show ID, in his video, the cops instantly cease to hassle you.... whatever...

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badey View Post
    He also recommends showing ID when asked if you are OCing, and on his show The Best Defense, he shows a guy getting arrested for not showing ID and says something to the effect of, "this is what will likely happen if you don't show ID." Oh, and when you do show ID, in his video, the cops instantly cease to hassle you.... whatever...
    Yeah, that's true. I saw that episode. It must have been Commifornia. Here in Pa., they have to have a better reason than not showing ID to arrest you.
    watch your top knot !

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This is not the first time that Mr. Pincus and Mr. Yeager's opinions on OC have been discussed on OCDO. The consensus opinion seems to have remained as before - they might have some good stuff we can learn about self defense and shooting in general but their personal opinions about mode of carry should not enter into their professional training.

    I seriously doubt if either of the two gurus will ever change their opinions or their ways.

    Like all other training, I take what I need/want and discard the rest - especially the stuff based on opinions when the holder of said opinion will not consider the possibility that other opinions might be just as valid. That way I do not spend my time going .

    stay safe.
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    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    So, Rob doesn't like open carry. He thinks it's a not very smart tactically, socially, and politically. Fine, I guess it's just his opinion and that's all, right?

    Nope!

    For a lot of state, there are 2 options for carrying a firearm among the public:
    Carrying openly without any permission
    Carrying concealed with government permission

    Ya think Rob just wants to feed his pockets off of government required concealed weapons training classes?
    Yup!
    He is a supporter and enabler of government regulated firearm carry, perpetuating it with irrational reasons, at best!

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    This is not the first time that Mr. Pincus and Mr. Yeager's opinions on OC have been discussed on OCDO. The consensus opinion seems to have remained as before - they might have some good stuff we can learn about self defense and shooting in general but their personal opinions about mode of carry should not enter into their professional training.

    I seriously doubt if either of the two gurus will ever change their opinions or their ways.

    Like all other training, I take what I need/want and discard the rest - especially the stuff based on opinions when the holder of said opinion will not consider the possibility that other opinions might be just as valid. That way I do not spend my time going .

    stay safe.
    Well said!
    watch your top knot !

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    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Like all other training, I take what I need/want and discard the rest - especially the stuff based on opinions when the holder of said opinion will not consider the possibility that other opinions might be just as valid. That way I do not spend my time going .
    From what I've read, it seems if one wants training with firearms, the only way to make it through classes would be to discard parts of the classes and all of the opinions, as you suggested. I haven't read about too many unbiased firearm training classes, as most that I read about seem to cater toward concealed carry.

    In my research through blogs and forums posts about classes like these, which usually end up being discussed on OCDO, most of the instructors seem to always bash open carry while in the process of teaching or through their blogs.

    Maybe it's just my perception, maybe I'm reading the wrong blogs/forums, maybe the unbiased classes aren't being talked about... but I just feel like ranting about the "enablers" tonight.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I seriously doubt if either of the two gurus will ever change their opinions or their ways

    Someone from New Jersey (one of the fewer than 10 states that ban OC), who's livelihood depends on selling concealed carry training, and where the use or mere possession of expanding self-defense ammunition is illegal has about as much legitimacy on matters of self-defense in my book as a Brahmin would have as a judge at a BBQ contest...

    Just sayin'...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I took a training course from Combat Hard this past weekend. It was at least 3x harder drawing a concealed firearm compared to one carried openly (even with retention). I had a hard time pulling my shirt up and drawing my concealed blue gun.
    Last edited by protias; 05-22-2012 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Combat Hard, not Hard Combat
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I took a training course from Hard Combat this past weekend. It was at least 3x harder drawing a concealed firearm compared to one carried openly (even with retention). I had a hard time pulling my shirt up and drawing my concealed blue gun.

    So essentially, what we've proven here is that although OC is more of a deterrent, is easier and faster to deploy, and costs a LOST less to exercise and learn, Concealed Carry--as a BUSINESS MODEL--is superior, because it rakes in tens of thousands of dollars to private business owners and States who charge law-abiding citizens obscene fees so they can exercise a fundamental human right, whereas OC is essentially free...

    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-22-2012 at 03:06 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So essentially, what we've proven here is that although OC is more of a deterrent, is easier and faster to deploy, and costs a LOST less to exercise and learn, Concealed Carry--as a BUSINESS MODEL--is superior, because it rakes in tens of thousands of dollars to private business owners and States who charge law-abiding citizens obscene fees so they can exercise a fundamental human right, whereas OC is essentially free...

    Exactly. And in our practice (low stress compared to the real thing), the only way I could get close to OC was with a opened shirt/vest where I could just sweep that back and grab my firearm. Even then, I found my clothing still getting stuck between my hand and the firearm. With CC, if I had 5 second to pull my firearm, I could not do it and would be dead. Remember, you have to move also. It is much harder to hit a moving target compared to one standing still, like what we all practice (bullseye shooting at the range). I am not doing a plug for Combat Hard, but I do admit, if I did not take that training, I would not have found this out.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Here's a two second carry training that's better than anything out there:

    You take the gun out of its holster only when you are going to shoot it ... it is not a tool to scare people with ...

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    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    I posted a comment also.

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    It is about delegitimizing armed citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Here's a two second carry training that's better than anything out there:

    You take the gun out of its holster only when you are going to shoot it ... it is not a tool to scare people with ...
    While it has little to do with your comment, most people are against open carry for one of two reasons:

    1. They want to delegitimize the idea of armed citizens, and open carry is a direct assault on that delegitimization

    2. They are terrified of the Media and say, just do not make them mad or anger them, and maybe they won't come after us just yet, as in the old Russian parable about the sleigh and wolves, they want to be the last ones eaten.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Follow the money....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Drawing from under the shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I took a training course from Combat Hard this past weekend. It was at least 3x harder drawing a concealed firearm compared to one carried openly (even with retention). I had a hard time pulling my shirt up and drawing my concealed blue gun.
    Drawing from concealment takes some practice, but it is not hard to master.

    My recommendation:

    1. Use both hands.
    2. Grab on both sides of the gun
    3. Pull all the way up forcefully. Practice with a knit shirt, or an old shirt you don't mind ripping the buttons off of. In a real fight buttons will be your last concern.
    4. Gun hand then goes into the draw stroke COUNT 1
    5. Support hand should be holding the shirt just under the neck.
    6. Gun comes up out of the holster COUNT2
    7. Gun is rotated in the direction of the threat by bringing the elbow down COUNT 3 (also retention firing position)
    8. Gun is punch out with support hand meeting in mid punch out COUNT 4
    9. Gun fully punched out, sights aligned, slack out of the trigger ready to stop the threat COUNT 5.

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    Let us not forget Rob is former law enforcement. He is one of those types that believe us "normal" citizens should seek government approval before exercising our "god given rights." Just listen to him for a few hours and it is not hard to see his view's and understanding of constitutional liberties. There is no "but" in the Second Amendment. Anyone that believes we should not have the right to openly carry a weapon obviously does not truly support the 2A. If I am remembering correctly Rob started training law enforcement, and then moved to citizens once CCarry went mainstream. It is extremely obvious that some are in this business for the money, and some are in it because they truly believe in the 2A and want people to have every advantage when dealing with armed aggressors. If you truly want people to get training to increase their ability to survive in a deadly force scenario, it should not matter how they choose to carry their weapons.

    If open carry is such a horrible idea, why does law enforcement and military do so? Because it is a deterrent, and your weapon can be accessed much more quickly when your draw is not hindered with clothing.

    Why does Rob and the Nudge speak out against OC so sternly? Because I guarantee they are well paid by manufacturers of cc gear and apparel. Both of these men also qualify for leosa protections, so they are above us normal folks! They have the LEO mindset that a MINORITY of our law enforcement have; that we must obtain permission, but they should not.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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