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Thread: Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

  1. #26
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianto94 View Post
    Drawing from concealment takes some practice, but it is not hard to master.

    My recommendation:

    1. Use both hands.
    2. Grab on both sides of the gun
    3. Pull all the way up forcefully. Practice with a knit shirt, or an old shirt you don't mind ripping the buttons off of. In a real fight buttons will be your last concern.
    4. Gun hand then goes into the draw stroke COUNT 1
    5. Support hand should be holding the shirt just under the neck.
    6. Gun comes up out of the holster COUNT2
    7. Gun is rotated in the direction of the threat by bringing the elbow down COUNT 3 (also retention firing position)
    8. Gun is punch out with support hand meeting in mid punch out COUNT 4
    9. Gun fully punched out, sights aligned, slack out of the trigger ready to stop the threat COUNT 5.
    Rarely do I wear buttoned shirts (I much prefer t-shirts). I know it takes practice, but I was just making the point it is more difficult to do. Also, the left arm is vital to keeping balance when running away from your target, or keeping your target at bay. There are a number of situations where the left arm is going to be used to get you the advantage over your attacker, such as if you have one knee on the ground because he is beating you. You use that left arm to grab his left leg and get him off balance so you can defend yourself with your firearm.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  2. #27
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianto94 View Post
    Drawing from concealment takes some practice, but it is not hard to master.

    My recommendation:

    1. Use both hands.
    2. Grab on both sides of the gun
    3. Pull all the way up forcefully. Practice with a knit shirt, or an old shirt you don't mind ripping the buttons off of. In a real fight buttons will be your last concern.
    4. Gun hand then goes into the draw stroke COUNT 1
    5. Support hand should be holding the shirt just under the neck.
    6. Gun comes up out of the holster COUNT2
    7. Gun is rotated in the direction of the threat by bringing the elbow down COUNT 3 (also retention firing position)
    8. Gun is punch out with support hand meeting in mid punch out COUNT 4
    9. Gun fully punched out, sights aligned, slack out of the trigger ready to stop the threat COUNT 5.
    That's all fine and dandy provided you have unobstructed use of both arms/hands. Kinda goes out the window when you're having to fight off an attacker with your non-gun hand.

  3. #28
    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ianto94 View Post
    Drawing from concealment takes some practice, but it is not hard to master.

    My recommendation:

    1. Use both hands.
    2. Grab on both sides of the gun
    3. Pull all the way up forcefully. Practice with a knit shirt, or an old shirt you don't mind ripping the buttons off of. In a real fight buttons will be your last concern.
    4. Gun hand then goes into the draw stroke COUNT 1
    5. Support hand should be holding the shirt just under the neck.
    6. Gun comes up out of the holster COUNT2
    7. Gun is rotated in the direction of the threat by bringing the elbow down COUNT 3 (also retention firing position)
    8. Gun is punch out with support hand meeting in mid punch out COUNT 4
    9. Gun fully punched out, sights aligned, slack out of the trigger ready to stop the threat COUNT 5.
    That's all fine and dandy provided you have unobstructed use of both arms/hands. Kinda goes out the window when you're having to fight off an attacker with your non-gun hand.
    I took his post as a joke - the steps seemed too ridiculous to be serious...

  4. #29
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    I took his post as a joke - the steps seemed too ridiculous to be serious...


    Works great if you don't have to use your weak side...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  5. #30
    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post


    Works great if you don't have to use your weak side...
    Wow. Thanks for that - I really thought his post was sarcasm...

  6. #31
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    Wow. Thanks for that - I really thought his post was sarcasm...
    Oh, and if you have anything to say about Rob's tactics there, it has to be approved by him. Guess he doesn't like anyone questioning his author-i-tie.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Oh, and if you have anything to say about Rob's tactics there, it has to be approved by him. Guess he doesn't like anyone questioning his author-i-tie.
    Same goes for Yeager. Recently I commented on one of his videos, half of my comment was in complete agreement with many of his concepts, the other half was asking for him to explain one of his comments, and how without an explanation it was meaningless. He basically said that lighter rifle rounds loose killing power when they drop below 2600 fps. He responded that I should look up high speed fragmentation and that basically I should get schooling (ie dont question him and take his courses). Very rude, and really did not address anything I said. I responded that as a gun enthusiast and physicist I was well aware of high speed fragmentation and that if the topic was penetration I would have understood, or if he had even mentioned penetration at all, I would have likely not said anything at all. Basically I was offering constructive criticism, he got defensive, was rude, and did not approve any further comments from me. Basically I was agreeing with his conclusion, but not his reasoning or lack there of, he did not respond as an objective instructor should. He responded as an egomaniac high on his own success.
    Last edited by Xulld; 05-24-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Yaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    Yeah, that's true. I saw that episode. It must have been Commifornia. Here in Pa., they have to have a better reason than not showing ID to arrest you.
    You don't have to show a i.d. in Cali unless you are being acused of a crime.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    There are three things about Rob Pincus you need to remember when you hear his stance on OC:

    1) he is an ex-cop from New Jersey,
    2) he lives and runs his business in NJ now (where OC is pretty much illegal), and
    3) he makes money teaching concealed carry classes.

    Considering his background, location, and current mode of employment, expecting him to be an advocate for OC is like expecting Monsanto to be an advocate for organic low-impact farming, or expecting La Cosa Nostra to be an advocate for the RICO act...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  10. #35
    Regular Member FMJ 911's Avatar
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    You know, The Main #1 Reason I Open Carry? Because I like the Effectiveness of the Full-Size Kimber 1911 in .45 ACP. I am not going to be told by an "Expert" That I "Should" Conceal.

    In an urban environment, the most important thing is Stopping Power. a .380 though a 3" Barrel is not going to produce the same result as a .45 ACP through a 5" barrel. And even if you want "Concealable Firepower", It's going to come at great cost to controllability, capacity, and accuracy.

    Yes, I do have a P-64 in 9x18 "Makarov" Chambering. It's a small Handgun, and could be considered weak, but sometimes you do have to conceal, and I'm saving it for those times when I have to. Otherwise, I'm OC all the time. All Steel, Full Size Firearm, Big Boy Caliber.

    No One ever tells me what I "Should Do". I do what I believe is right, and there's no time to lose when it comes to defending yourself and your family.
    Beware! For I am the BB sniper...

  11. #36
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    I don't know what the percentage is of Americans that carry. But if maybe all of the people that concealed carry, open carried for just a couple of days. All of the thugs would think, Wow, there are a lot more armed people out here than I imagined. I would also like to see that. P.S, I found this after I typed the previous.

    http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/...ith-carry.html
    Last edited by hjmoosejaw; 05-25-2012 at 12:31 PM.
    watch your top knot !

  12. #37
    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    I don't know what the percentage is of Americans that carry. But if maybe all of the people that concealed carry, open carried for just a couple of days. All of the thugs would think, Wow, there are a lot more armed people out here than I imagined. I would also like to see that. P.S, I found this after I typed the previous.

    http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/...ith-carry.html
    Some states only allow CC and you must have the privilege card to do so.

    The link was from a blog post in 2004 using 2002/2003 data - I would have to say that those numbers are low nearly a decade later. Also, that only accounts for permit holders. In some states one can OC without a permit, so those gun owners and carriers are not even counted.

  13. #38
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    Some states only allow CC and you must have the privilege card to do so.

    The link was from a blog post in 2004 using 2002/2003 data - I would have to say that those numbers are low nearly a decade later. Also, that only accounts for permit holders. In some states one can OC without a permit, so those gun owners and carriers are not even counted.
    Wow, you're right. I guess I should have looked at it more closely. It's busy here and I was in a hurry. I agree, the numbers should be a lot higher now. But you get my point. Wouldn't it be nice to see all of the carriers of both OC and CC all OC for a day or two?
    watch your top knot !

  14. #39
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    So.... Who the * is Rob Pincus and why the * should I care what he thinks????

    OH, he has a TV show.... So does Will Hayden and I wouldn't take his advice on a squirt gun.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmoosejaw View Post
    I don't know what the percentage is of Americans that carry. But if maybe all of the people that concealed carry, open carried for just a couple of days. All of the thugs would think, Wow, there are a lot more armed people out here than I imagined. I would also like to see that. P.S, I found this after I typed the previous.

    http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/...ith-carry.html
    What I'd be interested in seeing is the numbers of CCW holders actually carry on a daily or at least regular basis. I know many folks that have their CHP, but don't carry on their person. Many folks I talk to who do get their permits, do it so they can stick a gun in their glove box. I would imagine the numbers of folks that routinely carry is minuscule compared to the total number of CHP/CCW permit holders there are in total. Seems the only folks I talk to who routinely carry, are like-minded people I see hanging around gun stores on a regular basis. I'd like to think the numbers would be high, but personal experience based on folks I talk to about carrying seem to indicate the opposite.

  16. #41
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    what i would be interested in is how many people carry without a permission slip. oh wait that probably would be illegal and you would not have anyway of knowing.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  17. #42
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    what i would be interested in is how many people carry without a permission slip. oh wait that probably would be illegal and you would not have anyway of knowing.
    Do you mean all who carry without a permission slip, or just those that cary concealed without one?

    Reason I ask is 'cause some of us don't need no steenkin' permission slips to OC, and some don't need no steenkin' permission slips to carry any way they want to.

    Sometimes being precise is anal retentive and sometimes it helps to avoid confusion.

    stay safe.
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    His comments are going to help me free up a bunch of space on my DVR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post


    Works great if you don't have to use your weak side...

    YES, YES ! Just drop the baby you are carrying in your left arm in order to perform that maneuver .

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    It is the mis-characterization of the discussion as one about "rights" instead of one about making smart choices to defend yourself or others that draws the conversation into a misguided, emotional debate. No where, in video or print, have I suggested/hinted/stated that the RIGHT to OC shouldn't exist. So, let's table the rights issue... leave it on the table... and walk away.
    Now that we're focused on tactics and personal defense again... it is not "JUST a choice"... it is a very serious choice. If someone suggested that a .177 caliber BB pistol was as good as a Glock 9mm for personal defense, would say that "it is just a choice, and it is up to the individual" OR, would you agree that I, as a professional personal defense educator, should try to explain to them why they are wrong ??

    Meanwhile, here's a cool new video on OC v CC which actually shows the REALITY of comparing OC and CC in regard to presentation times... there is some crazy talk in this thread...:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlojGZeu6GA&feature

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    There are three things about Rob Pincus you need to remember when you hear his stance on OC:

    1) he is an ex-cop from New Jersey,
    2) he lives and runs his business in NJ now (where OC is pretty much illegal), and
    3) he makes money teaching concealed carry classes.

    Considering his background, location, and current mode of employment, expecting him to be an advocate for OC is like expecting Monsanto to be an advocate for organic low-impact farming, or expecting La Cosa Nostra to be an advocate for the RICO act...
    Funny... But horribly misinformed.

    I was a cop or a few years, but not in Jersey. I was born in Jersey and spent a hell of a lot of time there OC'ing my Ruger mkII and a S&W model 19 walking through the woods and sandpits shooting. But, I haven't lived there since the 80's. My companies are based in Ohio and Virginia, though I do have a business manager and mailing address in Jersey. Lastly, 75+% of my courses are on defensive shooting skill development and the material is CC/OC neutral.... And 90% of my students OC during classes....

    Less Dreaming, more research.

    RJP
    Last edited by Rob Pincus; 07-10-2012 at 04:51 PM.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Rob, apart from OC vs CC, I'd say we're largely on the same page. I'm generally a fan of your stuff on youtube, by the way.

    I would suggest that OC has not only the advantage of keeping punks at bay. It also during the day, when OCing is best noticed, has the advantage of making it less likely that someone who is less than mentally stable and abnormally aggressive and conflict prone, will get into a disagreement with you for trivial reasons. Instead, they will know from the beginning that you are armed, and be vastly less likely to go into a full blown posturing response with a high chance of transitioning to a fight response. Whereas with concealment, you can either pretend to be harmless, or escalate it pretty fully by clearing leather, and that is extremely likely to catch a quirky person off guard, and cause them to dangerously posture and give you a hell of a nasty chance of having to shoot for really no reason.

    Your mileage may vary, but I've noticed this through experience, talking to cop friends, and watching videos on youtube of police dash cam footage. It is an incredible mistake to not factor in the craziness of instincts in untrained/mentally unstable people. Mode of carry is important in this aspect, and of course communication techniques are just as important, if not more so.
    Last edited by Michigander; 07-10-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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  23. #48
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    1. In most situations, it has been my personal experience that open carry is a deterrent to criminal activity. Most criminals do not want to take a chance on getting shot and will go elsewhere at the sight of an openly-carried firearm. That is my primary objective in open carrying; to be left alone by the criminal element of our society.

    2. In many areas, especially in the summer, concealed carry is not practical unless you are willing to sweat your fanny off. I am not. At my age, I am too susceptible to the heat to risk heat injuries.

    3. Those tenths of a second you mentioned in your video may be the difference between me living or either being severely injured or dead. I want those tenths of second to be in my favor.

    4. No one that I know who open carries has his/her holster where you placed yours for the "open carry" segment of your video. My own preference is the three o'clock position for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is my elbow is always in contact with my firearm as an aid to retention.

    5. If concealed carry is so advantageous, then why do not our police officers carry concealed?
    Last edited by SFCRetired; 07-10-2012 at 05:11 PM. Reason: incorrect statement

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    William April is the mental health professional that I listen closest to in regard to what he calls " Violent Criminal Actors"... He would agree with about not underestimating them... bUT, he stresses the inanity of trying to build systems of response based on their irrationality. You could just as eaily have pointed out how the open presence of a weapon could set some people off into irrational confrontation, or maybe talked about how a new Phenomenon: "suicide by OC'er" could start ripping across our society, OR how dangerous it is to have open guns on our hips around mentally challenged people who don't know better than to mess with them.

    Obviously, those were tongue-in-cheek examples... Meant to point out the lack of basis for the " it might keep crazy people in check" argument.

    ******

    sFCRetired, some of your arguments barely deserve a witty retort. But, since you are retired, I'll suggest you do more research on the things you are taking about.... I'm ignoring your points 3 and 5 because they are irrational.

    1. What is the " concealed carry industry" ??? You have no idea what percentages of my revenue come fom where... And 90+% of the pics/video you can find of me and my stunts will be Open Carry.

    2. Go look at the pictures at OpenCarry.org that they choose to highlight of oc'ers.... Almost 100% are 3 or 4 o'clock and at least half of the holsters shown have no retention above friction.

    3. As for your elbow always being in contact with your gun, you are either lying, mistaken or you look completely ridiculous and should consider how much easier your life would be if you covered up the gun.

    -RJP

  25. #50
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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