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Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

papa bear

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what i would be interested in is how many people carry without a permission slip. oh wait that probably would be illegal and you would not have anyway of knowing.
 

skidmark

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what i would be interested in is how many people carry without a permission slip. oh wait that probably would be illegal and you would not have anyway of knowing.

Do you mean all who carry without a permission slip, or just those that cary concealed without one?

Reason I ask is 'cause some of us don't need no steenkin' permission slips to OC, and some don't need no steenkin' permission slips to carry any way they want to.

Sometimes being precise is anal retentive and sometimes it helps to avoid confusion.

stay safe.
 

XD4ME

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[video=youtube;AUnBXLaWHrg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUnBXLaWHrg[/video]

Works great if you don't have to use your weak side...


YES, YES ! Just drop the baby you are carrying in your left arm in order to perform that maneuver .
 

Rob Pincus

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It is the mis-characterization of the discussion as one about "rights" instead of one about making smart choices to defend yourself or others that draws the conversation into a misguided, emotional debate. No where, in video or print, have I suggested/hinted/stated that the RIGHT to OC shouldn't exist. So, let's table the rights issue... leave it on the table... and walk away.
Now that we're focused on tactics and personal defense again... it is not "JUST a choice"... it is a very serious choice. If someone suggested that a .177 caliber BB pistol was as good as a Glock 9mm for personal defense, would say that "it is just a choice, and it is up to the individual" OR, would you agree that I, as a professional personal defense educator, should try to explain to them why they are wrong ??

Meanwhile, here's a cool new video on OC v CC which actually shows the REALITY of comparing OC and CC in regard to presentation times... there is some crazy talk in this thread...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlojGZeu6GA&feature
 

Rob Pincus

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There are three things about Rob Pincus you need to remember when you hear his stance on OC:

1) he is an ex-cop from New Jersey,
2) he lives and runs his business in NJ now (where OC is pretty much illegal), and
3) he makes money teaching concealed carry classes.

Considering his background, location, and current mode of employment, expecting him to be an advocate for OC is like expecting Monsanto to be an advocate for organic low-impact farming, or expecting La Cosa Nostra to be an advocate for the RICO act...

Funny... But horribly misinformed.

I was a cop or a few years, but not in Jersey. I was born in Jersey and spent a hell of a lot of time there OC'ing my Ruger mkII and a S&W model 19 walking through the woods and sandpits shooting. But, I haven't lived there since the 80's. My companies are based in Ohio and Virginia, though I do have a business manager and mailing address in Jersey. Lastly, 75+% of my courses are on defensive shooting skill development and the material is CC/OC neutral.... And 90% of my students OC during classes....

Less Dreaming, more research.

RJP
 
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Michigander

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Rob, apart from OC vs CC, I'd say we're largely on the same page. I'm generally a fan of your stuff on youtube, by the way.

I would suggest that OC has not only the advantage of keeping punks at bay. It also during the day, when OCing is best noticed, has the advantage of making it less likely that someone who is less than mentally stable and abnormally aggressive and conflict prone, will get into a disagreement with you for trivial reasons. Instead, they will know from the beginning that you are armed, and be vastly less likely to go into a full blown posturing response with a high chance of transitioning to a fight response. Whereas with concealment, you can either pretend to be harmless, or escalate it pretty fully by clearing leather, and that is extremely likely to catch a quirky person off guard, and cause them to dangerously posture and give you a hell of a nasty chance of having to shoot for really no reason.

Your mileage may vary, but I've noticed this through experience, talking to cop friends, and watching videos on youtube of police dash cam footage. It is an incredible mistake to not factor in the craziness of instincts in untrained/mentally unstable people. Mode of carry is important in this aspect, and of course communication techniques are just as important, if not more so.
 
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SFCRetired

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1. In most situations, it has been my personal experience that open carry is a deterrent to criminal activity. Most criminals do not want to take a chance on getting shot and will go elsewhere at the sight of an openly-carried firearm. That is my primary objective in open carrying; to be left alone by the criminal element of our society.

2. In many areas, especially in the summer, concealed carry is not practical unless you are willing to sweat your fanny off. I am not. At my age, I am too susceptible to the heat to risk heat injuries.

3. Those tenths of a second you mentioned in your video may be the difference between me living or either being severely injured or dead. I want those tenths of second to be in my favor.

4. No one that I know who open carries has his/her holster where you placed yours for the "open carry" segment of your video. My own preference is the three o'clock position for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is my elbow is always in contact with my firearm as an aid to retention.

5. If concealed carry is so advantageous, then why do not our police officers carry concealed?
 
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Rob Pincus

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William April is the mental health professional that I listen closest to in regard to what he calls " Violent Criminal Actors"... He would agree with about not underestimating them... bUT, he stresses the inanity of trying to build systems of response based on their irrationality. You could just as eaily have pointed out how the open presence of a weapon could set some people off into irrational confrontation, or maybe talked about how a new Phenomenon: "suicide by OC'er" could start ripping across our society, OR how dangerous it is to have open guns on our hips around mentally challenged people who don't know better than to mess with them.

Obviously, those were tongue-in-cheek examples... Meant to point out the lack of basis for the " it might keep crazy people in check" argument.

******

sFCRetired, some of your arguments barely deserve a witty retort. But, since you are retired, I'll suggest you do more research on the things you are taking about.... I'm ignoring your points 3 and 5 because they are irrational.

1. What is the " concealed carry industry" ??? You have no idea what percentages of my revenue come fom where... And 90+% of the pics/video you can find of me and my stunts will be Open Carry.

2. Go look at the pictures at OpenCarry.org that they choose to highlight of oc'ers.... Almost 100% are 3 or 4 o'clock and at least half of the holsters shown have no retention above friction.

3. As for your elbow always being in contact with your gun, you are either lying, mistaken or you look completely ridiculous and should consider how much easier your life would be if you covered up the gun.

-RJP
 

SFCRetired

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William April is the mental health professional that I listen closest to in regard to what he calls " Violent Criminal Actors"... He would agree with about not underestimating them... bUT, he stresses the inanity of trying to build systems of response based on their irrationality. You could just as eaily have pointed out how the open presence of a weapon could set some people off into irrational confrontation, or maybe talked about how a new Phenomenon: "suicide by OC'er" could start ripping across our society, OR how dangerous it is to have open guns on our hips around mentally challenged people who don't know better than to mess with them.

Obviously, those were tongue-in-cheek examples... Meant to point out the lack of basis for the " it might keep crazy people in check" argument.

******

sFCRetired, some of your arguments barely deserve a witty retort. But, since you are retired, I'll suggest you do more research on the things you are taking about.... I'm ignoring your points 3 and 5 because they are irrational.

And how many years, Mr. Pincus, have you carried a firearm? I can count over fifty years, sir. And is it that my points 3 and 5 are irrational or is it that you do not have a viable answer?

1. What is the " concealed carry industry" ??? You have no idea what percentages of my revenue come fom where... And 90+% of the pics/video you can find of me and my stunts will be Open Carry.

The "concealed carry industry" is, as you probably well know, that group of individuals and companies who are in the business of selling the equipment and training required to obtain a government "permission slip" in many states. I removed my initial comment as you are correct; I do not know where your revenue comes from and should not have put that statement there.

Your "stunts" on your videos may be open carry, but what about on a day-to-day basis?


2. Go look at the pictures at OpenCarry.org that they choose to highlight of oc'ers.... Almost 100% are 3 or 4 o'clock and at least half of the holsters shown have no retention above friction.

Come visit with me and my friends and observe where our firearms are located. You will also notice that almost all of our holsters are retention holsters with at least one other device besides just friction to retain the weapon.


3. As for your elbow always being in contact with your gun, you are either lying, mistaken or you look completely ridiculous and should consider how much easier your life would be if you covered up the gun.

Mr. Pincus, I have tried, and will continue to try, to remain polite, but I am highly offended by you accusing me of lying. My weapon is carried in such a manner that, indeed, my elbow is in contact with my firearm. And I venture to say that I look no more ridiculous than you do. For your information, in the climate I live in, concealed carry would make my life quite a bit more difficult. There are times and places I do conceal, but that is for my own reasons.


-RJP

In my years of service to my country, it was stressed repeatedly to me that the one thing a non-commissioned officer had to have was both personal and professional integrity. I have retained that integrity even in retirement as it has served me quite well over the years. For you, sir, to call that integrity into question is an insult of the highest order.
 

Rob Pincus

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In my years of service to my country, it was stressed repeatedly to me that the one thing a non-commissioned officer had to have was both personal and professional integrity. I have retained that integrity even in retirement as it has served me quite well over the years. For you, sir, to call that integrity into question is an insult of the highest order.


Well, I'd say you go back and re-read the post, Sarge. No Offense Meant. I learned about that integrity thing in a few places too, including the training I received before becoming a Commissioned Officer. I didn't call you a liar, I simply pointed out that there is no way you actually keep your elbow on your gun all day unless you live your life in a completely ridiculous way. You made a hyperbolic statement, don't get all self-righteous just because I called you out on it. If you want to make an articulate argument, please do... if you want us to believe everything you say, no matter how silly, because your code name implies you served our country for an extended period of time... uh, No. You might also have learned about admitting when you make a miss-statement and driving on, as you did in regard to your assertion about how I earn my living from the sinister CCW Cabal, which you did retract... Which I appreciate.

In regard to the CC Industry thing, there is no such thing... there is a bit a racket at many state level in regard to licensing fees and I sometimes shake my head at completely ridiculous courses that pass for "training" in order to qualify for a permit, but You'll have to trust me that there certainly isn't enough organization in the industry to conspire to keep CC permits required... and, at any rate, I certainly don't teach CCW Permit Courses!


As far as "stunts"... You haven't seen anything yet! We'll be releasing some promo videos for a carbine company soon that are really almost silly.


Continued from previous #2. I can't speak to you or your friends holsters or carry locations... please don't take personal offense at my reference to the pictures I see of "OC'ers" in general... perhaps you should focus your energy into the community and educate those around you carrying poorly... like this one:

http://www.opencarry.org/images/who/Who1.jpg


-RJP
 
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rushcreek2

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Human beings like all mammals are threat sensitive as a product of natural selection.

That has been established by hundreds of thousand of years of survival experience resulting in the typical "average" man/woman on the street in 2012 - who is still threat reactive , and self-preserving by nature.

If a person is armed whether concealed, or notoriously displayed they may potentially project a perceptible attitude that transmits the message - "Don't mess with me!", and threat-sensitive individuals are quite receptive to the exhibition of such an attitude. Some exceptional females without a doubt possess the ability to exhibit such and attitude, but most do not.

I feel like the most important consideration critical to the decision to exercise the OC option is "Do I personally project the image of a person who will be able to handle any situation that may develope in spite of the fact that I am visibly armed ?"

Open carry is in effect - a performance - regardless of the particular motivation behind it. You have voluntarily walked out onto a public "stage" in front of a row of potential performance "critics".
 

Aknazer

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I would still say that you didn't do a true apples vs apples comparison. You chose a faster CC spot than OC spot, but yet that CC spot isn't where (in my experience) most CCers carry. Whenever I talk with people they always seem to CC in the small of the back (in fact you are the first person I've come across that does appendix carry; which is also where I carry for CC and is where I'll carry once OK gets OC). Either you should have done draws from the same spot for both guns, or from the "standard" spot for both guns (small of back for CC, 3 or 9 o'clock for OC).

Also you seem to ignore other things, such as if your shirt gets caught (even more likely if you're sitting down), or how having to move your clothes is another point of failure in a high-stress situation. You also say that the criminal "could" choose to simply shoot you for seeing your gun, but ignore the fact that they "could" choose to quickly leave after seeing it. And honestly, I'm not going to be trying to talk to someone who just busted through my door, I'm going to react to the person as if they are a threat to me and my family.

Really you state that you don't like OC, then provide biased reasoning while not mentioning reasons that would weaken your position but let the individual make an informed decision. And I'm just not a fan of that.
 

Michigander

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William April is the mental health professional that I listen closest to in regard to what he calls " Violent Criminal Actors"... He would agree with about not underestimating them... bUT, he stresses the inanity of trying to build systems of response based on their irrationality. You could just as eaily have pointed out how the open presence of a weapon could set some people off into irrational confrontation, or maybe talked about how a new Phenomenon: "suicide by OC'er" could start ripping across our society, OR how dangerous it is to have open guns on our hips around mentally challenged people who don't know better than to mess with them.

Obviously, those were tongue-in-cheek examples... Meant to point out the lack of basis for the " it might keep crazy people in check" argument.

My point is not lacking in any basis. I have been carrying guns for many years, openly and concealed, in good neighborhoods and bad. I don't really wish to get into the incidents I have been in online, but I can assure you that my opinions are based on experience, and applying consideration of those experiences to others which are documented on video, and further studying the work of people like Dave Grossman, and talking to cop friend's who are well experienced with hostile situations.

It's pretty simple. An OC'd gun carries with it the assumption of passers by that the carrier is willing to use it, not that he or she actually wishes to, just that there won't be hesitation if the issue is forced. For this reason, even an aggressive jerk is likely to avoid a confrontation with the carrier, because it's understood that the carrier doesn't want to shoot them or challenge them, but that will be the obvious consequence for starting trouble.

Drawing from concealment however, well that catches people by surprise, and carries with it a tremendous insult and social stigma for the person being drawn on, as well as possibly his friends. An instant response of posturing comes as no surprise at this point, whereas it's less likely the incident would have ever started with an OCer, because the OC'd gun already well established who holds dominance. This is pretty basic fight/flight/posture/submit stuff. Private OC is fairly new ground in many ways, because this community is among the first in the world which I am aware of to commonly carry openly in urban settings while going about our own private lives. But that doesn't do a thing to inhibit basic hard wire animal instincts which very much effect humans.

Please do understand that I am not wishing to argue with you, insult your intelligence or in any way defame you or your work. Coincidentally, I was just discussing your video on vehicle defense with a co worker today, and about an hour later happened on this thread. I have very high respect for you and your work, but in terms of OCing in public, at least while not at work and in a uniform, I would humbly submit to you that you have far less experience than many here. I am merely trying to share my knowledge, and I do believe I accomplished that. What you or anyone else does with it is their business.
 
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slowfiveoh

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Ever seen a guy smash his face into a hive of bees and start eating the honey straight out of the combs? Not impossible, but due to simple, natural threat assessment, this practice is interestingly uncommon.
Yet the common worker bee simply wants to be left the hell alone, collecting its pollen and moving on its merry way.
Nobody F's with the bees because they KNOW they have stingers.
Not that they have a consensus somewhere saying 30% of the bees are armed and that somehow this magic number threatens criminals who see a 70% chance of success.

Ever walk up to a bear and start slapping the **** out of it? Me neither. Generally, being the weaker predator physically, yet holding an edge in intelligence as a product of my species evolution, I would avoid said situation in every way possible. Technological advantage in my favor, I would deploy it as a last resort.

The argument that counter-ambushing an ambush is somehow a pleasant and/or productive, meaningful way to conduct business is simply the byproduct of societal brainwashing. Nothing more, nothing less. It panders to the idea that the firearm is something to be hidden, and even more hilarious, that once under point of duress it is wise to fiddle with your garments in an attempt to be Ninja-McSneaky in the fractions of a second that a committed criminal has to yank his trigger before you even motion to draw, let alone present.

I can recall several videos in fact all over "das inturwebz" showing repeated fails of the "counter-ambush" stupidity that avoids the core of the matter when proponents of CC praise its effectiveness.

It amazes me that anybody who has half a braincell can possibly process that the vast majority of criminals would willingly jump a knowingly armed citizen, and even more so, a clearly armed populace.
It would be even more interesting to see the criminal elements response were society closer in nature to that of the beehive.

Yet this frame of mind will continue, facts avoided. The real issue is the perceived discomfort, or some internally disqualifying standard or guilt for carrying the tool in the first place.
 

Rob Pincus

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Please do understand that I am not wishing to argue with you, insult your intelligence or in any way defame you or your work. Coincidentally, I was just discussing your video on vehicle defense with a co worker today, and about an hour later happened on this thread. I have very high respect for you and your work, but in terms of OCing in public, at least while not at work and in a uniform, I would humbly submit to you that you have far less experience than many here. I am merely trying to share my knowledge, and I do believe I accomplished that. What you or anyone else does with it is their business.


I get that, and appreciate it!

I think that the evidence of gun grabs, confrontations with law enforcement and general incidents overcomes the natural assumption that carrying a gun openly will help you AVOID conflict.

****

SlowFiveOh,

What does this mean???

"I can recall several videos in fact all over "das inturwebz" showing repeated fails of the "counter-ambush" stupidity that avoids the core of the matter when proponents of CC praise its effectiveness."

-RJP
 

Rob Pincus

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I would still say that you didn't do a true apples vs apples comparison. You chose a faster CC spot than OC spot, but yet that CC spot isn't where (in my experience) most CCers carry. Whenever I talk with people they always seem to CC in the small of the back (in fact you are the first person I've come across that does appendix carry; which is also where I carry for CC and is where I'll carry once OK gets OC). Either you should have done draws from the same spot for both guns, or from the "standard" spot for both guns (small of back for CC, 3 or 9 o'clock for OC).

Also you seem to ignore other things, such as if your shirt gets caught (even more likely if you're sitting down), or how having to move your clothes is another point of failure in a high-stress situation. You also say that the criminal "could" choose to simply shoot you for seeing your gun, but ignore the fact that they "could" choose to quickly leave after seeing it. And honestly, I'm not going to be trying to talk to someone who just busted through my door, I'm going to react to the person as if they are a threat to me and my family.

Really you state that you don't like OC, then provide biased reasoning while not mentioning reasons that would weaken your position but let the individual make an informed decision. And I'm just not a fan of that.

Both sides could get lost in the "could's" of the arguments.... It wouldn't make much sense for an evolutionary biologist to present "proof" of creationism that he didn't believe in or try to create "equal" arguments. I'm trying to educate people, of course I am going to point out the advantages of what I consider to be the more advantageous choice.

In regard to the timed demonstration, I don't know how many people you deal with that carry guns, but out of the hundreds that I see every year (if not a couple thousand directly... over the past few years) about 15-20% are at least training from the Appendix position... most of the rest are at 3 or 4 o'clock. I hardly ever see anyone back at 5 or 6 anymore. The demo was set up with the OWB holster at about 4 and the IWB at 1 o'clock... and those presentations were "cold", no practice... and, skewing things AGAINST my position, the Holster I was using IWB was actually canted in the opposite direction for a smooth presentation from that position because it was the only one I had for that gun from our show sponsor and I wanted to support them by using one their options.

-RJP
 

Michigander

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It has been the experience of most here that grabs don't happen often (read that as ever apart from one or two very strange and isolated incidents), other than from rogue cops in non gun friendly areas. Still, most use retention holsters.

I would suspect that many, if not most private OCers CC when in more crowded places if they even go, as well as avoid conflict at all possible times. On the other hand, police often have the job to go to the trouble, as well as open carry at crowded events. I'd call it apples to oranges, for the most part. Same as I'd say private OC to private CC is an apples to oranges comparison.

But on the other hand, I never was a cop, and you were. So I'd say both of our opinions are valid, just in different ways.

I published a book on how to safely and lawfully open carry in Michigan, and I'm getting ready to update and expand it to a second edition. I do take the subject very seriously, because my readers with no experience count on me to get the right info, and so I like to hear fresh perspectives. Similarly, I know that you value providing the right information to those who count on you for it. So thank you for sharing your view points, I do appreciate it.
 
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Rob Pincus

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Cool... I know the focus and discipline it takes get a book finished & printed. If you'd entertain the idea of a short articulate "consider this before you OC" Appendix Item, email me! I just spent last weekend in MI at a family reunion.

-RJP
 
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