Rob Pincus self defense expert hates on Open Carry

Rob Pincus said:

SlowFiveOh,

What does this mean???

"I can recall several videos in fact all over "das inturwebz" showing repeated fails of the "counter-ambush" stupidity that avoids the core of the matter when proponents of CC praise its effectiveness."

-RJP

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I will simplify:

Concealed Carriers often charge OC'ers as targets specifically by having their firearms visible. Yet in drawing under duress many have died simply by:

A.) Not making mortal harm apparent by display of their firearm.

and

B.) Drawing in a manner that is inarguably slower than open carry, tit for tat, training to training.


Yet for some interesting reason, despite the clear display of firearms by those of who who elect to open carry, the crimes perpetuated AGAINST us are de facto lower when compared to concealed carry "incidents".


Do not misinterpret my commentary to indicate that I am strictly against concealed carry. My position is that it is a personal choice.

Rob Pincus said:

Cool... I know the focus and discipline it takes get a book finished & printed. If you'd entertain the idea of a short articulate "consider this before you OC" Appendix Item, email me! I just spent last weekend in MI at a family reunion.

-RJP

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Consider me willing to do joint efforts of any type that would appear prudent for either of us.

And I may very well be emailing to take you up on your offer.

Thank you, can you please provide us with the evidence of gun grabs? You see, we keep on hearing about these, but it seems like nobody wants to show us the evidence. Can you give us just a few verifiable instances of normal citizens being targeting for the open display of firearms. We would prefer police reports, but any legitimate news source should be acceptable. And it would certainly do a lot to bolster your position.

Rob Pincus said:

I get that, and appreciate it!

I think that the evidence of gun grabs, confrontations with law enforcement and general incidents overcomes the natural assumption that carrying a gun openly will help you AVOID conflict.

****

SlowFiveOh,

What does this mean???

"I can recall several videos in fact all over "das inturwebz" showing repeated fails of the "counter-ambush" stupidity that avoids the core of the matter when proponents of CC praise its effectiveness."

-RJP

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I do also feel it's important to point out that since most violent incidents take place at night in low light, in circumstances where OC has little chance to be noticed, I'm not entirely certain it means much on average, whether someone OCs or CCs, as it applies to lethal force situations that are going to for sure require shooting.

I would however suggest that the biggest difference between OC and CC which will come up day to day is required social skills. An OCer who is friendly, outgoing and good at winning people over, in many regions apart from the left coast and elitist d bag east coast regions, will prove to be an amazingly effective pro gun mouthpiece to bring our issues to the forefront, and win over those who are on the fence. An anti social person who hates answering questions and saying nice things to people, well that type definitely should CC if he or she can do so responsibly.

I can tell you this from my experiences in Michigan. I started off as probably one of ten Michigan residents who thought urban OC might work without going to prison, and now we've to where the majority of the people of this state which follows news and current events has heard about us and is aware of OCing and either in favor or not aggressively opposed. We've been the subject of hundreds of news stories, most of them neutral or positive. With a lot of hard work, and a political climate unlike the PRK's, OCing is among the best available tools at winning over the public in strong favor of gun rights. But OCing definitely isn't for everyone, and helping people decide what they want to do is a good reason to have conversations like this.

Mr. Pincus,

Seeing that it is fruitless to argue with you, I resign my part of the conversation with these observations:

You did imply, by your statement, that I am a liar.

snip//As for your elbow always being in contact with your gun, you are either lying, mistaken or you look completely ridiculous and should consider how much easier your life would be if you covered up the gun.\\snip


As concerns whether my elbow touches my firearm almost continuously; you do not know my body type, you do not know where my holster is, nor, in fact, do you even know the firearm I carry, so how could you make such a judgment?

End of discussion on my part.

kcgunfan said:

Thank you, can you please provide us with the evidence of gun grabs? You see, we keep on hearing about these, but it seems like nobody wants to show us the evidence. Can you give us just a few verifiable instances of normal citizens being targeting for the open display of firearms. We would prefer police reports, but any legitimate news source should be acceptable. And it would certainly do a lot to bolster your position.

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As much as i hate pointing it out, we cannot ignore the possibility of it happening. Even if it's an extremely rare occurrence.

http://www.gunsforeveryone.com/open-carrier-has-gun-stolen-then-murdered-with-it/

OK great, now we have 1 piece of evidence. In my profession, that's called an anomaly. Any others?

Medic1210 said:

As much as i hate pointing it out, we cannot ignore the possibility of it happening. Even if it's an extremely rare occurrence.

http://www.gunsforeveryone.com/open-carrier-has-gun-stolen-then-murdered-with-it/

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kcgunfan said:

OK great, now we have 1 piece of evidence. In my profession, that's called an anomaly. Any others?

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Did you or did you not ask for an example? Now you want more than one? How many have to happen before you decide it's actually something we should consider as being a possibility? I'm not saying I worry about this happening to me, but I don't completely ignore the possibility.

Like I said before, "A person could live because of the choice between OC vs. CC, or a person could die because of the choice between OC vs. CC." You have to decide how you want to carry. I happen to do both. It depends on where I'm going , what I'm doing, etc. I OC about 80% and CC about 20%. Rob Pincus, if you're out there, I've enjoyed your shows and Welcome to the forum. You think you might stick around awhile?

Medic1210 said:

As much as i hate pointing it out, we cannot ignore the possibility of it happening. Even if it's an extremely rare occurrence.

http://www.gunsforeveryone.com/open-carrier-has-gun-stolen-then-murdered-with-it/

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You will notice that he asked for evidence of "gun grabs" and not "a gun grab." The "s" denotes multiple incidents. Not that we should discard the possibility of it, but given that the original quote was of Pincus saying that gun grabs, run-ins with LEO, and general incidents are reason enough to not OC. If "gun grabs" (again notice that the person used the plural form of "grab") are to be honestly considered as a reason to not OC, then I would like to see more info than a single gun grab. Otherwise while I will prepare for the "possability" of it happening, it will not influence how I choose to carry.

Also I think it is interesting that "run-ins with LEO" is a reason to not OC. How about we push to have them respect our rights as opposed to simpl bowing down to either their ignorance or them bullying people for doing something they don't like? And just what does "general incidents" mean? I'm assuming he means times when the general public might react unfavorably to it, but again why should one give up their right simply to appease public peer pressure?

Now I can see taking into account the LEO/general public issues and choosing to CC because they don't want to deal with those potentials. But that is a personal choice and doesn't mean that CC is "better" than OC.

Rob Pincus said:

Both sides could get lost in the "could's" of the arguments.... It wouldn't make much sense for an evolutionary biologist to present "proof" of creationism that he didn't believe in or try to create "equal" arguments. I'm trying to educate people, of course I am going to point out the advantages of what I consider to be the more advantageous choice.

In regard to the timed demonstration, I don't know how many people you deal with that carry guns, but out of the hundreds that I see every year (if not a couple thousand directly... over the past few years) about 15-20% are at least training from the Appendix position... most of the rest are at 3 or 4 o'clock. I hardly ever see anyone back at 5 or 6 anymore. The demo was set up with the OWB holster at about 4 and the IWB at 1 o'clock... and those presentations were "cold", no practice... and, skewing things AGAINST my position, the Holster I was using IWB was actually canted in the opposite direction for a smooth presentation from that position because it was the only one I had for that gun from our show sponsor and I wanted to support them by using one their options.

-RJP

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If you are trying to educate people on OC vs CC or why you prefer one side over the other then you need to educate them on both sides. If you are simply trying to educate people on one side then you should only talk about that one side. Otherwise you are misleading the people because people are thinking they are learning about OC vs CC and not simply about CC.

As for your example. I wouldn't expect an evolutionary biologist to present "proof" of creationism if he was simply teaching about evolution. However if he was teaching about "evolution vs creationism" I WOULD expect him to properly cover both sides. If after teaching about both sides he wants to say why he believes in evolution over creationism that is fine. That is his opinion, and he has taught the people about both sides enough so that they can reasonably form their own opinion.

And yes when this subject comes up in talk I do talk about the advantages/disadvantages of both sides before I talk about why I prefer OC over CC.

Kcgunfan, if you can post here, you can figure out how to Google Search ... There are many examples. My favorite is the neighborhood "gun guy" who was robbed of his OC gun at gun point by a guy who targeted him to add to his illegal gun collection.

SFCret, " ending a discussion" with questions shows you true lack of interest in having a discussion. Sad.

AK, again, I don't believe that there is an advantage to OC for personal defense in a typical urban/suburban situation. I only have 4 or 5 minutes of airtime to teach important stuff... Not going to waste it faking a counter-point to my own position so that I appear "fair"... I'm not going to discuss the "possible" advantages f carrying a BB gun instead of a 9mm either. It may also be worth noting that I am unaware of any top level instructor who advocates OC over CC. Many offer the PC caveat that it might be an acceptable choice, but do ANY actually say it is better??

slow5, I still have no idea what you are trying to say specifically.... In regard to your last line: Everything is, De Facto, a personal choice... Tht is NOT a " position" that needs to be stated.... Unless you also need to state that your position is tht the sky is blue and grass is green ?

HJ, THANKS! I'm more of a nomadic, "show up occasionally" guy than a "stick around" type....

Mich, again, we agree on the social skills issue... Unfortunately, MANY OC'ers have failed this test with their appearance, lack of cooperation with LE and video-camera antics.... And they have turned many people against the concept entirely.

-Rob

I asked for evidence. In English, evidence is its own plural, so you cannot know how much evidence I was asking for. This is one incident, that is simply not enough to make me change my lifestyle.

There are many questions that I have on this incident. Was the firearm in a retention holster? Mine is. Was the original carrier trained in weapon retention? I am.



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Rob Pincus said:

Kcgunfan, if you can post here, you can figure out how to Google Search ... There are many examples. My favorite is the neighborhood "gun guy" who was robbed of his OC gun at gun point by a guy who targeted him to add to his illegal gun collection.

SFCret, " ending a discussion" with questions shows you true lack of interest in having a discussion. Sad.

AK, again, I don't believe that there is an advantage to OC for personal defense in a typical urban/suburban situation. I only have 4 or 5 minutes of airtime to teach important stuff... Not going to waste it faking a counter-point to my own position so that I appear "fair"... I'm not going to discuss the "possible" advantages f carrying a BB gun instead of a 9mm either. It may also be worth noting that I am unaware of any top level instructor who advocates OC over CC. Many offer the PC caveat that it might be an acceptable choice, but do ANY actually say it is better??

slow5, I still have no idea what you are trying to say specifically.... In regard to your last line: Everything is, De Facto, a personal choice... Tht is NOT a " position" that needs to be stated.... Unless you also need to state that your position is tht the sky is blue and grass is green ?

HJ, THANKS! I'm more of a nomadic, "show up occasionally" guy than a "stick around" type....

Mich, again, we agree on the social skills issue... Unfortunately, MANY OC'ers have failed this test with their appearance, lack of cooperation with LE and video-camera antics.... And they have turned many people against the concept entirely.

-Rob

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Kind of like the guy who was conceal carrying and got robbed of his firearm?

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/30/man-accused-of-stealing-gun-from-conceal-and-carry-holder/

protias said:

Kind of like the guy who was conceal carrying and got robbed of his firearm?

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/30/man-accused-of-stealing-gun-from-conceal-and-carry-holder/

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Protias, I never said anything to indicate that I thought that couldn't happen. I am happy to come here and discuss... But I got one guy who is afraid to be challenged (SFC), another who asks for examples that are very easy to find (kc) and now you jump back in with an example of something that No One, to my knowledge, has ever alledged was impossible... For no apparent reason.
BUT, I'm glad you are here actually. Can you clarify your earlier statement in this thread about me supposedly editing/ deleting your comments/thoughts ? I don't have edit power in this forum, so I found it confusing.... Or maybe you were just talking about Yeager at some other forum??

Rob Pincus said:

Can you clarify your earlier statement in this thread about me supposedly editing/ deleting your comments/thoughts ? I don't have edit power in this forum, so I found it confusing.... Or maybe you were just talking about Yeager at some other forum??

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I never alleged (to my knowledge) to any activity. I've been on many forums. I know how to look for admin badges and I know you don't have one. In fact, there are only 2 admins and a couple of moderators (who are on a tight lease). I've not seen my posts on the Getoffthex edited either, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

To go back to the original topic, I'm still trying to figure out why you say OC is not good.

Rob Pincus said:

slow5, I still have no idea what you are trying to say specifically.... In regard to your last line: Everything is, De Facto, a personal choice... Tht is NOT a " position" that needs to be stated.... Unless you also need to state that your position is tht the sky is blue and grass is green ?
-Rob

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Apparently you are ill-fit to be having an conversation then on the merits of open carry, and specifically, the comparison to the ninja wanna-be, guilty conscience driven sourcing of concealed carry.

I made appropriate, wholly accurate commentary that consisted of 90% of one of my previous posts, yet you chose to focus on my comment wherein i state that my personal position was not one of believing people should not have the choice of how they elect to carry.

SFCRetired said:

1. In most situations, it has been my personal experience that open carry is a deterrent to criminal activity. Most criminals do not want to take a chance on getting shot and will go elsewhere at the sight of an openly-carried firearm. That is my primary objective in open carrying; to be left alone by the criminal element of our society.

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The difference between a LEO and a regular person is that a LEO has rules of engagement and force to follow. He has the objective to capture, detain and arrest. The independent person has the objective to defend and achieve a position of safety. A seasoned criminal knows that, if he runs, a cop will chase. He also knows that guns in the hands of non-LEOs are simply deadly. He has a 50-50 chance that a regular person WILL shoot, and he can infer that immediately upon observation. A LEO wants to "get the bad guy". A regular person has no such incentive to detain. If placed in a position where lethal force enters the scenario, the RP is protected by law from charges related to the death of the aggressor.

In a nutshell, TL;DR: Criminals play games with LEOs, but they know regular citizens are deadly.

2. In many areas, especially in the summer, concealed carry is not practical unless you are willing to sweat your fanny off. I am not. At my age, I am too susceptible to the heat to risk heat injuries.

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Ah, yes, the dirty, dirty south. Where CC isn't practical because you print in 90+ degree weather.

4. No one that I know who open carries has his/her holster where you placed yours for the "open carry" segment of your video. My own preference is the three o'clock position for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is my elbow is always in contact with my firearm as an aid to retention.

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Mine is three or nine, so again, I don't think the methodology applies. RP: Carry where a cop does; you should know, you were one.

5. If concealed carry is so advantageous, then why do not our police officers carry concealed?

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Or the military? Or the county sheriff? Surely, with the badge and posse commitas, the sheriff doesn't need to carry a gun, because he has the power of the county to defend him.

Mr. Pincus is actively working to 'undermine' OC and its acceptance by our fellow citizens. Mr. Pincus is not the 'state' therefore he is not capable of 'restricting' or 'infringing upon' our right to OC. By using his position as a authority in the field of self-defense with a firearm, his comments and opinions do carry added weight and credibility with his students.

Mr. Pincus is effectively working to deprive those who choose to OC, the 'right' to OC, by placing OC in a negative light at every opportunity.

Mr. Pincus does not approve of OC, fair enough. Good luck Mr. Pincus and stay safe.

A unique aspect of the "quintessential choice" resulting in the popularity of the handgun is that the question of whether or not it is concealed , or displayed tends to be a rather subjective issue dependent upon ambient observations.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that there are things to consider before deciding to OC. That having been said I believe that the vast majority of us who engage in OC approach the practice with a tremendous amount of consideration being given to the potential responses of others, and how we will likewise respond - hence this discussion.

I believe the majority of OC'ers possess inherent leadership qualities, and are proactive change agents. Those who are not comfortable with OC apparently have difficulty digesting the premise adhered to by us OC'ers that the practice can eventually be generally accepted by society at large. The jury is still out at this point, and the verdict will depend upon how well the evidence is presented.

CC by definition offers absolutely no deterrent to predatory crime, whereas OC does offer the prospect of deterrence. Given this disparity there will be circumstances when I prefer to CC, and others circumstances in which I will opt to OC when not prohibited by law.