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Thread: cuiver river farmers market open carry protest, Troy MO

  1. #1
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    cuiver river farmers market open carry protest, Troy MO

    My wife is a member of the Cuiver River Farmers Market in Troy Missouri. I frequently go up there to help her on Saturday mornings. I was rudely told to take my weapon off while i was there. I my self am not a member of the market. Since i was already in a bad mood my wife and I argued the point and I gave up to stop before things got too out of hand. If i was approached in a nicer manor and asked if I would put it out of view, I would have without hesitation.

    The Farmers Market is at Tractor Supply every Saturday morning from 9a.m. to 1p.m. The market does not pay any money in any way to Tractor Supply, so there is nothing they can do about me having my weapon on me in view.

    I posted my disappointment on their facebook page here http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cuivre...13030598783870
    After my post the "steward" (A.K.A) president sent an E-mail to all members ask to vote yes or no to allow guns at the market. Email below
    Point of order:

    We need your input regarding a situation that has made itself into an issue we need to deal with, immediately, as a group.

    We have a member with a licensed handgun who has been asked to put said gun out of sight during the market hours. Tractor Supply’s policy does not ban licensed guns in the store or on premises.

    For the record, we are all for an individual’s right to carry and will not willingly give those rights up! However, comments have been made by visitors and members alike, stating their discomfort at its presence! Most researched larger farmers markets in America do not allow guns on premises to sell or at all!

    Beyond name calling during market hours, handing said gun over to another non-member to be worn in a waistband, does not send the right signal for the market. Again, beyond that, the negative comments on personal face book pages and on the, now, unauthorized face book page using the CRFM name, is only doing us harm!

    We have tried to deal with this privately, personally and peacefully! Now, we must bring it to you the, the market family, so we can make this decision as a group!

    For expediency, it has been suggested that we do this via email, so the decision can be made and done with! How do you wish to proceed?


    Allow guns at the market: YES or NO?


    My wife and I both had our gun, there was no passing off to someone else.
    I ask anyone willing to stop by this Saturday 5/26 open carry to stop in and say hi, and maybe find something you like. The market starts at 9am at tractor supply behind Mcdonal's off Highway 47

    Thank you for your support

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    So, if they can't ban guns because it is the Tractor Supply's property, then what are they voting on? From what you wrote it seems that they have no authority on the matter. If they are tryingto ban carry by members only then that is even more stupid.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 05-20-2012 at 10:02 PM.
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    This is a crotchety old man that always has to get his way. this is not the only law bending they have tried. this is the first of his slip ups i can do something about my self without implicating my wife. my wife was a bored member until they started doing things under the table and behind peoples backs. we are lucky we even got the email in the first play

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO, Keith!
    I'm a regular OCer in Troy and often frequent various locations. I've driven by the farmer's market, but have never stopped as I've never needed any produce.

    I support you 100%. It seems you belong to an organization who is considering "rules" because they do not accept your method of carry. I have checked out their FB page, and have seen nothing posted about firearms.

    The letter you have posted appears to be an "internal memo" to members of this group. They may pass any kind of "rules" for membership they may wish. As a member, you would be bound by whatever they decide. However, that's about as far as their little blacklisting can reach. They may pass a "no guns" rule, but the only effect would be on the vendors, and their membership of this organization.

    As far as anyone in attendance: Tractor Supply (the company who's parking lot they have permission to use) and the city of Troy, have no say in the matter unless TSC asks a member of the public to leave their parking lot, but they haven't in the past, and company policy is not to.

    Therefore, anyone carrying there has every right to do so. If a member of the public (not a vendor) is asked to leave by any CRFM member.....that civilian can politely tell the CRFM representative to stick it. Since we, as open carriers, represent firearm owners, it is generally advisable to voice your dissent politely. Otherwise, you run the risk of creating the impression that OCers are all jerks. This is not the way to win hearts and minds.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend an OC "protest". There's nothing to protest other than rules of membership in the Cuivre River Farmers Market. For anyone else, there's nothing they can do. I would suggest a simple OC outing to buy some tomatoes or pepper plants in support of Keith. If they ask a member of the public to leave the market, simply inform them that TSC doesn't prohibit you in their parking lot, and that you have every right to be there. Then ask them what authority they have other than their desire for you to leave Woolworth's lunch counter. The truthful answer would be none. (As an aside: Whenever I get the usual, "Well, the sight of your firearm is disturbing some people.", I like to point at a random person and say, "Well, that person's shoes disturb me. I'll leave as soon as you ask him to leave.....you are kicking law abiding folks out for simply being "disturbing", right?". If they refuse, I simply ask, "So you are discriminating by placing more importance on things that others don't like, but my dislikes are irrelevant?".

    As a vendor, however, you may suffer the wrath of having to move your easy-up across the parking lot and sell your wares at the KPFM (Keith Pohl Farmers Market) as they might kick you out of the CRFM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Pohl View Post
    This is a crotchety old man that always has to get his way. this is not the only law bending they have tried. this is the first of his slip ups i can do something about my self without implicating my wife. my wife was a bored member until they started doing things under the table and behind peoples backs. we are lucky we even got the email in the first play
    I am afraid I would be tempted to tell the crotchety old man to, " Go take a flyin ---- off a rollin donught , of course no one has ever accused me of being politically correct.
    I wish I was not 2 1/2 hours away I would do my best to set up my booth on one side of him, and you and your wife could set up on the other.
    I do not see how he (or the market for that matter) could have a problem with you or anyone else OC'ing, if TSC has no problems with it. In my eyes, that would be like my fathers neighbor telling me to put my gun away or cover up while I was at my fathers residence.

    Good luck, it doesn't seem like you'll make a convert of him any time soon. But it sounds like your handling the situation better than I probably would.
    The price of freedom is on the wall.

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    my post on their facebook is the only one by me keith pohl . look for post by other members

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    When you visit next time simply turn your back and walk away. Folks who like to be/think they are in charge really dislike that response.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    update - i spoke with a LEO of troy. Tractor Supply has been told that i have asked people to come shop at the market this saturday with OC weapons. The LEO said "dont be suprised if tractor supply puts up no gun signs" once i got home i looked up the law for the signage. this is what i found.

    Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by
    means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen
    inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee,
    manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons
    holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit
    employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed
    firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer
    of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is
    prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the
    firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer
    may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed
    firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf is the source

    i will be contacting tractor supply to reconsider said signage. http://www.tractorsupply.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Pohl View Post
    update - i spoke with a LEO of troy. Tractor Supply has been told that i have asked people to come shop at the market this saturday with OC weapons. The LEO said "dont be suprised if tractor supply puts up no gun signs"
    i will be contacting tractor supply to reconsider said signage.
    Is it me...or does it seem as if you may be handling this all wrong?
    If Troy LE said, "don't be surprised "if"..." why would you confront the business?
    I don't know...I'm sensing to much of an assertive attitude in this.
    I think it was unwise to solicit folks to show up OC...for what purpose? To press some kind of point? In my opinion, this is not a reasonable way to respond to a situation such as this.
    Tactically...it makes little sense. If Tractor Supply decides to prohibit what, up until now, has been an acceptable practice, you just got the opposite response that you were seeking.

    I like what a previous poster suggested...you should have just turned away and ignored the person that had no authority and let him make all of the mistakes from then on.

    I don't understand why folks just can't enjoy their liberty and ignore the detractors.
    Last edited by lincomores; 05-21-2012 at 10:15 PM.

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    Nothing in that post says anything about open carry, just concealed carry. And if for some reason you conceal carry the worst thing the PROPERTY OWNER can do is ask you to leave.

    That signage is restricting concealed-carry, not open carry.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

  11. #11
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    If the market is located in the parking lot, then any signs posted in/on the building are entirely irrelevant anyway as they have no force of law and do not apply to the parking lot anyway.

    The bottom line is that TSC may ask you to leave their property at any time and for any reason, and they don't need any signs posted to exercise that right. If you are asked (or told) to leave, and you don't, you just got yourself a 1st Degree Trespass charge (Class B misdemeanor), REGARDLESS of the reason why you were asked/told to leave. The presence of a firearm, or absence of a firearm, is entirely irrelevant to the situation.

    Frankly, I'm not sure why it would be a good idea for EITHER side to drag TSC into this mess. They are doing the community a favor from the looks of things. Why repay them with all this dirty laundry?

  12. #12
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    Nothing in that post says anything about open carry, just concealed carry. And if for some reason you conceal carry the worst thing the PROPERTY OWNER can do is ask you to leave.

    That signage is restricting concealed-carry, not open carry.
    Signage can be worded to restrict either, or both. There is no statutory requirement for the verbiage that is used on a sign that a private property owner posts on his/her property. A sign that reads, "No Firearms Allowed In This Building" would cover ANY type of carry.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Although the CRFM does not pay anything to TSC, TSC may grant them the rights and priviledges of controlling their area of use, which could include the option of who they can ask to leave or not. IIRC, this can be verbal or in writing. Unless you know for a fact they do or do not have that authority, you may want to heed to the request until you can verify it with TSC, i.e. store manager.
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    Just be sure to exercise your rights in a friendly and professional manner. If discussions have to be made you always stay calm no matter the reaction of the other person. If a debate is had with any anger or hostility it just becomes a ******* match and no one is right. It seems that tractor supply and LEO are now involved, this situation probably could have been resolved more easily.

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
    Just be sure to exercise your rights in a friendly and professional manner. If discussions have to be made you always stay calm no matter the reaction of the other person. If a debate is had with any anger or hostility it just becomes a ******* match and no one is right. It seems that tractor supply and LEO are now involved, this situation probably could have been resolved more easily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Signage can be worded to restrict either, or both. There is no statutory requirement for the verbiage that is used on a sign that a private property owner posts on his/her property. A sign that reads, "No Firearms Allowed In This Building" would cover ANY type of carry.
    Yes you are right. In my mind i was picturing just the "concealed firearms" signs you see mostly.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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