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Thread: R.I.P.-range 15

  1. #1
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up R.I.P.-range 15

    Well for those of us in the south end a convenient cheap place to shoot if going away, not literally but it might as welll be.

    As far as i can remember range 15 (fort lewis east gate entrance) has been open to public shooters. however now with a chain of command hand off the airforce is now the ranking command at joint base lewis mcChord and they are making changes to range 15 policy.

    These changes make it difficult for military members to use the range for personal use and downright hostile to civilians.

    Effective at the start of summer-
    .active duty military are required to get a yearly security clearance and permission letter from their CO they must keep with them when they go to the range.

    .retirees will be required to have a security clearance check every 5 years.

    .All firearms brought onto the range by civlians must first be registered with fort lewis (serial number etc...). you must have a security clearance check, you must have a sponsor present who is active or retired military. all firearms must be transported in locked cases unloaded and seperated from ammunition in a location unaccessable to the passengers and vehicle operator.


    Sadly it looks like this weekends trip out to the range (15) was my last. i will miss it since it was so easy for me to get to.

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  2. #2
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    F*** that, Capitol Forest here I come (retired Army myself). When attendance drops to zero, they can just shut it down. (I'm assuming the same for shotgun range?)
    Last edited by golddigger14s; 05-21-2012 at 12:16 AM.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I have heard about this coming down the pipeline... I'll update my maps to reflect it.

    Is there any news release on it or anything that the .mil has put out? Internally or Externally/
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  4. #4
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    They're required by federal law to allow non military members to use it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    They're required by federal law to allow non military members to use it..
    ya so? doesn't mean that can't make it damn near impossible for civilians to gain access, which it looks like they are doing.


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  6. #6
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massivedesign View Post
    I have heard about this coming down the pipeline... I'll update my maps to reflect it.

    Is there any news release on it or anything that the .mil has put out? Internally or Externally/
    It's all now posted on a large sign inside the range masters building on site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikedzombies View Post
    ya so? doesn't mean that can't make it damn near impossible for civilians to gain access, which it looks like they are doing.
    Note the latest date:


    10 USC Sec. 4309 01/03/2012 (112-90)

    TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES


    Subtitle B - Army


    PART III - TRAINING


    CHAPTER 401 - TRAINING GENERALLY


    Sec. 4309. Rifle ranges: availability for use by members and civilians


    (a) Ranges Available. - All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.

    (b) Military Ranges. - (1) In the case of a rifle range referred to in subsection (a) that is located on a military installation, the Secretary concerned may establish reasonable fees for the use by civilians of that rifle range to cover the material and supply costs incurred by the armed forces to make that rifle range available to civilians.

    (2) Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (1) in connection with the use of a rifle range shall be credited to the appropriation available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range and shall be available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range.

    (3) Use of a rifle range referred to in paragraph (1) by civilians may not interfere with the use of the range by members of the armed forces.

    (c) Regulations. - Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.


    -SOURCE-


    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 236; Pub. L. 99-145, title XIII, Sec. 1301(b)(3)(A), Nov. 8, 1985, 99 Stat. 735; Pub. L. 101-510, div. A, title III, Sec. 328(e), Nov. 5, 1990, 104 Stat. 1533; Pub. L. 102-484, div. A, title III, Sec. 380(b)(1), Oct. 23, 1992, 106 Stat. 2390.)

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    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    I'll have to go look, but I seriously doubt that they are going to be requiring security clearences. That would be horrendously expensive for JBLM. Also, it would have very little to do with range activities. I'll drive over today and ask the range guys that I know if they know what's going on. They might be looking at a background check, they could do that. Either way, I'll find out today and get it posted on here by this evening.

  9. #9
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Here we go, from the horse's mouth so to speak. The guy there knew nothing about any security clearances, but they are saying that it is no longer open to the public. To use the range, you need to have your firearm registered on post (it's a process) and a military member may sponsor up to 2 civillians. However, remember though, any gun you want to shoot there is going to have to be registered. I don't see this lasting real long. Unless folks just give up. There is an appeals process, but with the military, it takes a lot of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Note the latest date:


    10 USC Sec. 4309 01/03/2012 (112-90)

    TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES


    Subtitle B - Army


    PART III - TRAINING


    CHAPTER 401 - TRAINING GENERALLY


    Sec. 4309. Rifle ranges: availability for use by members and civilians


    (a) Ranges Available. - All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.

    (b) Military Ranges. - (1) In the case of a rifle range referred to in subsection (a) that is located on a military installation, the Secretary concerned may establish reasonable fees for the use by civilians of that rifle range to cover the material and supply costs incurred by the armed forces to make that rifle range available to civilians.

    (2) Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (1) in connection with the use of a rifle range shall be credited to the appropriation available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range and shall be available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range.

    (3) Use of a rifle range referred to in paragraph (1) by civilians may not interfere with the use of the range by members of the armed forces.

    (c) Regulations. - Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.


    -SOURCE-


    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 236; Pub. L. 99-145, title XIII, Sec. 1301(b)(3)(A), Nov. 8, 1985, 99 Stat. 735; Pub. L. 101-510, div. A, title III, Sec. 328(e), Nov. 5, 1990, 104 Stat. 1533; Pub. L. 102-484, div. A, title III, Sec. 380(b)(1), Oct. 23, 1992, 106 Stat. 2390.)
    So? that still doesn't mean the military cant make every civilians pass a background check, register their weapons and all kinds of. crap to make people not want to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonK View Post
    I'll have to go look, but I seriously doubt that they are going to be requiring security clearences. That would be horrendously expensive for JBLM. Also, it would have very little to do with range activities. I'll drive over today and ask the range guys that I know if they know what's going on. They might be looking at a background check, they could do that. Either way, I'll find out today and get it posted on here by this evening.
    Why would they care? It's not their money.

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  12. #12
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Actually that money would come from range funds that are almost non-existent. I'm not saying that a background check is an acceptable thing, but there's a huge differance between a background check and a security clearance. Beyond that, consider my post just informative. I called, then drove to a couple places to talk to some people in person. While I'm with tecknowennie, there isn't a lot that I can do as I am still a military member...

  13. #13
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Well i was probably mixing up the clearence with the background check, i think it is different for active duty sicne they do have to get a letter/clearance to use the range. but still registration is a no go.
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    Wow.. a lot of misconceptions.

    They're required by federal law to allow non military members to use it.
    Actually, they're not.
    If you look at the US Code that KBCraig cited, it reads:
    All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.
    The key phrase there is "...may be used..." Non-military people (civilians) have no more right to use a range than they have to walk into the motor pool and take a tank for a joy ride. Think you have a "right" to use ranges? Don't go to Range 15... pull onto Range 14 and start blasting away and see what happens.

    The code was written the way it was to allow non-military entities to use Dept. of Defense assets, etc. Ft. Lewis ranges and training areas are also used by city, county and state police organizations, as well as Feds such as Seattle FBI, US Marshals, Bomb Disposal Units, etc.

    Section C of the code states:
    Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.
    The authority controlling the range (and training areas) is Range Control, which falls under DPTMS (Directorate of Plans, Training Mobilization and Security)
    Range 15 is operated by MWR, which stands for Morale, Welfare and Recreation. This program was designed as a benefit for military personnel. It is provided for their use... not for the general public. Some MWR facilities are open to the public, others aren't.. like the Auto Craft Shop where soldiers can repair their cars, etc.
    Though not falling under MWR, there are many other activities that civilians can do on Ft Lewis training areas (with permission): Horseback riding, hunting... hell, there was even a group called "The Sam 8 Club" that used to use the drop zones to fire off model rockets.
    Anyway... Use of Ft Lewis assets by civilians, such as Range 15, is not a "right", but a privilege.

    "Who's this Phineas J. Whoopee guy? He joins the forum and on his first post starts running his mouth and telling people that they're wrong, etc"

    Well... I worked as an Operations NCO at Ft. Lewis Range Control for several years until I retired. I was also the NCOIC of Range Control at Ft. McCoy, WI. We didn't have anything like Range 15 up there, but we did open up several ranges to the public prior to deer season so they could zero their rifles and then gave them free access to the training areas so they could hunt. So yeah, I know a bit about the rules and regs concerning ranges, what's allowed and what isn't.

    Ok, back on topic... Range 15 and I suppose also, weapon registration.
    I was out to the range the last two weekends and yes, there's a new sign hanging on the wall. What it said about civilians, I don't know as I'm a retiree and it didn't concern me enough to read it all. But here's a quote from the MWR web site:
    Who may use the range? All military issued ID card holders and sponsored non-military guest may use the facilities (NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC).
    So I guess that answers that.
    Why the change, I don't know. Possibly due to the heightened security issues? Trying to limit the number of non-military affiliated people having a reason to drive around base with weapons and ammunition? I can't say.

    Registering weapons on base in order to hunt or use Range 15.
    Firstly, active duty personal always had a requirement to register their weapons in one fashion or another, especially if they lived in the barracks. (weapon kept in the arms room, and yeah, you had to tell your CO that you were going shooting on the weekend and he had to sign a form so you could draw out your weapon, etc) There's different rules concerning if you live in base housing or reside off post as to requirements but that probably doesn't concern most of us.
    And now, since civilians are no longer allowed to use Range 15, I suppose the registration issue just affects us retirees and I'll give my personal opinion on the issue.
    "It blows!"

    I hate registering my weapons as much as the next guy, but I had to take a practical look at it. Federal Govt. already knows I exist. They already have my finger prints... hell, thanks to DOD policy back in the 90's the FBI even has my DNA on file! As for weapons, well duh! The ones that I bought from dealers are already linked to me so it's not like I can keep them secret or something.
    So anyway, here's the procedure.

    I had bought two pistols as gifts for my sons last month and wanted to go to Range 15 to break them in. They were bought from a dealer so the serial numbers were already linked to me in a data base somewhere so what's the big deal if Ft. Lewis gets them, too?
    This was done at Waller Hall... same place you go to for vehicle registration and ID cards.
    Usual form to fill out: Name, Address, Phone #, along with make, model, caliber, serial number.
    Was surprised that they took a picture, though. Figured that they should have still had a digitalized copy stored somewhere from my retiree ID card.
    Five minutes later I got a temporary permit, good for 30 days. I noted that there was info on it that I hadn't filled in on the application: Height, weight, eye, hair... Even had Marital Status: Divorced. Weapons registration, vehicle registration, ID Card section... all tied in to the same network, I suppose. Nothing new, there. Actual Registration/permit came in the mail 3 days later.
    Why couldn't they give me the "actual Registration" right then? I suppose they needed time to do a quick background check.. city, state... like that phone background check that gun dealers do or something.

    Well, the reg states that I have to tell the gate guard that I have weapons in the car. Let's see how this works in practice.
    That Saturday I drove in through the Dupont gate and told the guy I had weapons in the trunk. He really didn't seem too knowledgeable as to what he was supposed to do so he told me to pull through and park to the side. A few minutes later another guard came over. I showed him the registration paper and he said, "Have a nice day." Now... why couldn't the first guy have done that?

    OK, fun day at the range over... let's see how the gate guards down the road from Range 15 handle this. Told the guard that I had weapons in the trunk and he told me to pull ahead and park it. Another guard came over, I showed him the registration form and he asked me to pop the trunk and then checked each serial numbers against what was listed on the form. We chatted for about 5 minutes, each agreeing that this was bogus and then I was on my way.

    What's this mean? Does this mean the guards aren't properly briefed as to what the procedure is. Was the first guard just lazy? Was the second guard going too far? Is it left up to the Guard's discretion as to what actions to take, I don't know.

    Well.. I hope I've cleared up a couple of misconceptions and provided some info as to how things are concerning Range 15 and the weapons registration issue.

  15. #15
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas J. Whoopee View Post
    OK, fun day at the range over... let's see how the gate guards down the road from Range 15 handle this. Told the guard that I had weapons in the trunk and he told me to pull ahead and park it. Another guard came over, I showed him the registration form and he asked me to pop the trunk and then checked each serial numbers against what was listed on the form. We chatted for about 5 minutes, each agreeing that this was bogus and then I was on my way.
    Do they check as you leave to make sure you're not taking any of THEIR weapons off the post?

    This all reminds me of a favorite saying when I was on active duty. "Reason? There's no reason. It's just SOP!"
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  16. #16
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Fantastic first post!!

    I only have one comment:


    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas J. Whoopee View Post
    I had bought two pistols as gifts for my sons last month and wanted to go to Range 15 to break them in. They were bought from a dealer so the serial numbers were already linked to me in a data base somewhere so what's the big deal if Ft. Lewis gets them, too?
    There is no serial # database or gun owner database. When you went and bought those 2 pistols, all the FBI/BATFE knows is that you have filled out a 4473 and were seeking approval to buy multiple handguns. The serial and personal information stays with the dealer.

    In WA, you also fill out the pistol transfer form from DOL. This then goes to DOL and to the local CLEO for their own local check. They have (I think) 30 days to destroy it after the check is done.

    If the gun is used in a crime, the LEO have a trace tool that can tell them what FFL received the firearm. From there it's a subpoena to the FFL to find your name. This usually happens in quick order.
    www.WaGuns.org

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    1 Security clearance typically costs over 60,000 dollars. That is for a simple one, someone who has lived in the same place and worked in the same place for the past several years.

    They are not meaning actual clearances, that is not feasible. Minimum security clearance is SECRET and the military isn't going to give civilians access to SECRET information just to use the range.

    I hold a few levels above top secret so I know what I'm talking about

    Most likely it is clearance to use the range lol.

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    Thsi thread reminds me of a question I've had for awhile too, you guys know those ranges along steilacoom-dupont road that are outside the base and unfenced? They have burms and the ranges face south, with covered shooting areas.

    Are those useable?

    I'm just going to go find a place in the woods to shoot ><

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    Thank you for the info and clarification, Massive Design. I didn't know all the "Ins and Outs" of the process but had figured that access to the info was only a quick subpena away.

    Even the form used to register weapons on post states:
    ROUTINE USE: Information on weapons registration is furnished to Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Customs services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, state and local law enforcement, etc., for investigation and prosecution when such cases fall within their jurisdiction.

    Am I going to register every weapon that I own with Ft. Lewis? Uhm... I don't think so.

    To answer your question, Usarmykr... if we're talking about the same area, that's still Ft Lewis property... commonly referred to as North Fort. Just because an area isn't fenced in doesn't mean that it's free for public use. One could find themselves up on charges of Federal Trespass or anything else they might want to throw at you.

    The same goes for Range 15. While researching the registration issue Ive seen statements on other fora (yes, the plural of forum) saying things like: "You can get to Range 15 by coming in through East Gate Rd. There's no fence or guard shack to drive through so you don't need to have your weapons registered."

    Just because Range 15 isn't within the fenced in "Cantonment" area of Ft Lewis, doesn't mean that it's not under their jurisdiction and the registration regulations don't apply. It'd be a shame to get pulled over on East Gate Rd. for speeding or a burnt out tail light after leaving Range 15 and have the security police say, "Hey pal... Why don't ya pop your trunk open for me for a quick look-see."

  20. #20
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usarmykr View Post
    I'm just going to go find a place in the woods to shoot ><
    I can help with that! www.WaGuns.org/rangemap

    Look in the Honey Hole part of the list.
    Last edited by massivedesign; 05-22-2012 at 04:49 PM.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas J. Whoopee View Post
    Wow.. a lot of misconceptions.
    Yeah, yours.

    'public may use the ranges'...

    Absolutely, I may use the range, if I want..

    You think they're going to pass a law that says they WILL use the range, making it illegal for them NOT to use it?

    As far as rules and whatnot, yes, the people in charge of the range will set the rules, but they can't set the rules making it so that the public can't use the range, if they make a rule saying I can't use the range, then I MAY NOT, (not may) use the range.

    English, do you speak it?

    In addition, the only valid reason for not allowing access to the public is that it interferes with the primary mission of training. Range 15, as you said, is an MWR thing, meaning that it's generally not used for training missions... So that throws out any 'it interferes with our training' BS....

    There is a federal law in place that says ranges built with government funds can be used by 'people capable of bearing arms', Ie the public. I fall under that category. They cannot make regulations in such a manner that breach federal law...
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 05-22-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usarmykr View Post

    I hold a few levels above top secret so I know what I'm talking about

    Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know.

    I'm oft reminded of this when people talk about stuff they've seen that's still classified.
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  23. #23
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phineas J. Whoopee View Post
    Well, the reg states that I have to tell the gate guard that I have weapons in the car. Let's see how this works in practice.
    That Saturday I drove in through the Dupont gate and told the guy I had weapons in the trunk. He really didn't seem too knowledgeable as to what he was supposed to do so he told me to pull through and park to the side. A few minutes later another guard came over. I showed him the registration paper and he said, "Have a nice day." Now... why couldn't the first guy have done that?

    OK, fun day at the range over... let's see how the gate guards down the road from Range 15 handle this. Told the guard that I had weapons in the trunk and he told me to pull ahead and park it. Another guard came over, I showed him the registration form and he asked me to pop the trunk and then checked each serial numbers against what was listed on the form. We chatted for about 5 minutes, each agreeing that this was bogus and then I was on my way.

    What's this mean? Does this mean the guards aren't properly briefed as to what the procedure is. Was the first guard just lazy? Was the second guard going too far?

    Is it left up to the Guard's discretion as to what actions to take, I don't know.
    The above statement I sent to the PMO @ Ft. Lewis, here is the reply....

    Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
    Caveats: FOUO

    Mr. Starks,

    It is at the discretion of the Guards whether or not to inspect the firearms
    being carried in the vehicle. I can't really answer for why one Guard
    turned the matter over to another. Perhaps there was a lack of familiarity
    with policy and the first guard opted to turn the situation over to a more
    experienced security officer. Ultimately, in both cases the officers
    followed our protocol for screening of persons authorized to carry firearms
    onto the base. Thank you for complying with the base commander's policy and
    your comments.


    (name & number redacted by M1Gunr)
    Security & Access Control, DES

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know.

    I'm oft reminded of this when people talk about stuff they've seen that's still classified.
    You are a feisty one. Holding a clearance is in no way classified, I've had one for many years and have had 0 slips. I am HUMINT so it just doesn't happen. I've got nothing to prove, but I don't like when people question my firsthand knowledge.

  25. #25
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usarmykr View Post
    You are a feisty one. Holding a clearance is in no way classified, I've had one for many years and have had 0 slips. I am HUMINT so it just doesn't happen. I've got nothing to prove, but I don't like when people question my firsthand knowledge.
    I didn't say you didn't... I just said it reminded me of some things..
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