• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

R.I.P.-range 15

TechnoWeenie

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Phineas J. Whoopee said:
Wow.. a lot of misconceptions.
Click to expand...

Yeah, yours.

'public may use the ranges'...

Absolutely, I may use the range, if I want..

You think they're going to pass a law that says they WILL use the range, making it illegal for them NOT to use it?

As far as rules and whatnot, yes, the people in charge of the range will set the rules, but they can't set the rules making it so that the public can't use the range, if they make a rule saying I can't use the range, then I MAY NOT, (not may) use the range.

English, do you speak it?

In addition, the only valid reason for not allowing access to the public is that it interferes with the primary mission of training. Range 15, as you said, is an MWR thing, meaning that it's generally not used for training missions... So that throws out any 'it interferes with our training' BS....

There is a federal law in place that says ranges built with government funds can be used by 'people capable of bearing arms', Ie the public. I fall under that category. They cannot make regulations in such a manner that breach federal law...
 
Last edited:
TechnoWeenie

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Usarmykr said:
I hold a few levels above top secret so I know what I'm talking about ;)
Click to expand...


Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know.

I'm oft reminded of this when people talk about stuff they've seen that's still classified.
 
Bill Starks

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
Phineas J. Whoopee said:
Well, the reg states that I have to tell the gate guard that I have weapons in the car. Let's see how this works in practice.
That Saturday I drove in through the Dupont gate and told the guy I had weapons in the trunk. He really didn't seem too knowledgeable as to what he was supposed to do so he told me to pull through and park to the side. A few minutes later another guard came over. I showed him the registration paper and he said, "Have a nice day." Now... why couldn't the first guy have done that?

OK, fun day at the range over... let's see how the gate guards down the road from Range 15 handle this. Told the guard that I had weapons in the trunk and he told me to pull ahead and park it. Another guard came over, I showed him the registration form and he asked me to pop the trunk and then checked each serial numbers against what was listed on the form. We chatted for about 5 minutes, each agreeing that this was bogus and then I was on my way.

What's this mean? Does this mean the guards aren't properly briefed as to what the procedure is. Was the first guard just lazy? Was the second guard going too far?

Is it left up to the Guard's discretion as to what actions to take, I don't know.
Click to expand...

The above statement I sent to the PMO @ Ft. Lewis, here is the reply....

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: FOUO

Mr. Starks,

It is at the discretion of the Guards whether or not to inspect the firearms
being carried in the vehicle. I can't really answer for why one Guard
turned the matter over to another. Perhaps there was a lack of familiarity
with policy and the first guard opted to turn the situation over to a more
experienced security officer. Ultimately, in both cases the officers
followed our protocol for screening of persons authorized to carry firearms
onto the base. Thank you for complying with the base commander's policy and
your comments.


(name & number redacted by M1Gunr)
Security & Access Control, DES
 
U

Usarmykr

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
13
Location
Steilacoom
TechnoWeenie said:
Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know.

I'm oft reminded of this when people talk about stuff they've seen that's still classified.
Click to expand...

You are a feisty one. Holding a clearance is in no way classified, I've had one for many years and have had 0 slips. I am HUMINT so it just doesn't happen. I've got nothing to prove, but I don't like when people question my firsthand knowledge.
 
TechnoWeenie

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Usarmykr said:
You are a feisty one. Holding a clearance is in no way classified, I've had one for many years and have had 0 slips. I am HUMINT so it just doesn't happen. I've got nothing to prove, but I don't like when people question my firsthand knowledge.
Click to expand...

I didn't say you didn't... I just said it reminded me of some things.. :D
 
DamonK

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
Alright guys, I'll put the whole "who has a bigger clearance" issue to rest. My clearance is at least 2 inches smaller than both or yours. As far as the May Use terminology goes, if you understand legalese, that means they have the right to. It's not up to any military pinhead (I can say that, 13 years in the Army) to dictate beyond ensuring the safety of the range. Unfortunately Officers and Senior NCO rarely understand that their "power/control" is limited. While these new restrictions are designed to limit civilian participation at the range and rightfully grate on you guys, the way they have worded it is within federal regulation. By all means, fight it. I'll help in any way I can. But This is one we probably wont win.
 
TechnoWeenie

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
DamonK said:
Alright guys, I'll put the whole "who has a bigger clearance" issue to rest. My clearance is at least 2 inches smaller than both or yours. As far as the May Use terminology goes, if you understand legalese, that means they have the right to. It's not up to any military pinhead (I can say that, 13 years in the Army) to dictate beyond ensuring the safety of the range. Unfortunately Officers and Senior NCO rarely understand that their "power/control" is limited. While these new restrictions are designed to limit civilian participation at the range and rightfully grate on you guys, the way they have worded it is within federal regulation. By all means, fight it. I'll help in any way I can. But This is one we probably wont win.
Click to expand...


The restrictions wouldn't withstand a federal lawsuit, but I don't have the funds to engage in such a pursuit.
 
DamonK

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
That's about the size of it techno. Sad to say, but they have a team of liars, I mean lawyers that work for them. And any student of history knows how the military leaderships works. They dictate and bully blindly until someone with a bigger stick whacks them. Sad but true.

Oh, and about the size thing... I was just kidding guys, I've been told that my clearance is very manly:lol:
 
Last edited:
Bobarino

Bobarino

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
295
Location
Puyallup, Washington, USA
I was just there shooting on Sunday (20th) and I didn't see any signs, but then again, I wasn't looking. The rangemaster did tell us that they are contemplating banning magnums out there though. My cousin was firing his new Savage BA110, so he drew a bit of attention. We always enter from the East gate so there are no check points to pass through to get to range 15. If you're going through a checkpoint, I know you're supposed to register your weapons but using the East Gate it isn't a problem.

I'll be out there again soon I'm sure, so I'll ask them what the deal is. If I find anything out, I'll post it here asap.
 
Schlepnier

Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
420
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
Bobarino said:
I was just there shooting on Sunday (20th) and I didn't see any signs, but then again, I wasn't looking. The rangemaster did tell us that they are contemplating banning magnums out there though. My cousin was firing his new Savage BA110, so he drew a bit of attention. We always enter from the East gate so there are no check points to pass through to get to range 15. If you're going through a checkpoint, I know you're supposed to register your weapons but using the East Gate it isn't a problem.

I'll be out there again soon I'm sure, so I'll ask them what the deal is. If I find anything out, I'll post it here asap.
Click to expand...

Was he the guy that broke his scope off?
I was out there from 2-4pm, couldnt miss me with the saiga. 12ga shotguns tend to get some attention at the range as well.


P.S.
The signage was inside the range office.
 
golddigger14s

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
Schlepnier said:
Was he the guy that broke his scope off?
I was out there from 2-4pm, couldnt miss me with the saiga. 12ga shotguns tend to get some attention at the range as well.


P.S.
The signage was inside the range office.
Click to expand...

What type of ammo were you shooting? Since only slugs are allowed there.
 
BigDave

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
massivedesign said:
There is no serial # database or gun owner database. When you went and bought those 2 pistols, all the FBI/BATFE knows is that you have filled out a 4473 and were seeking approval to buy multiple handguns. The serial and personal information stays with the dealer.

In WA, you also fill out the pistol transfer form from DOL. This then goes to DOL and to the local CLEO for their own local check. They have (I think) 30 days to destroy it after the check is done.

If the gun is used in a crime, the LEO have a trace tool that can tell them what FFL received the firearm. From there it's a subpoena to the FFL to find your name. This usually happens in quick order.
Click to expand...

I was thinking along this line as well until, again I heard on the scanner where someone had their handgun stolen and did not know the serial number, dispatch came back with as long as we have his full name and drivers license they can pull up the information of the registered owner.
I have also heard upon return of a firearms check with it being registered to them.

I do remember something several years ago about a department maintain records and had to destroy them but I did not look into it to find where those requirements were and the incident I described above seems to be state wide as other addresses from out of the area have came up.

Along with this my neighbor had a pistol stolen a couple years ago, he did not have the serial number but did report the theft, they found it in Port Angles while investigating a crime. With out a database somewhere how did they know it was his?
 
K

kcgunfan

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
KC
BigDave said:
I was thinking along this line as well until, again I heard on the scanner where someone had their handgun stolen and did not know the serial number, dispatch came back with as long as we have his full name and drivers license they can pull up the information of the registered owner.
I have also heard upon return of a firearms check with it being registered to them.

I do remember something several years ago about a department maintain records and had to destroy them but I did not look into it to find where those requirements were and the incident I described above seems to be state wide as other addresses from out of the area have came up.

Along with this my neighbor had a pistol stolen a couple years ago, he did not have the serial number but did report the theft, they found it in Port Angles while investigating a crime. With out a database somewhere how did they know it was his?
Click to expand...
BATF calls the manufacturer.
Manufacturer say we sold this to gun shop X.
BATF calls gun shop X.
Gun shop X says your neighbor bought it.
QED

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
 
BigDave

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
kcgunfan said:
BATF calls the manufacturer.
Manufacturer say we sold this to gun shop X.
BATF calls gun shop X.
Gun shop X says your neighbor bought it.
QED

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

The first situation I wrote about the information was accessed with in minutes, what you suggest would take much longer.
 
K

kcgunfan

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
KC
Not necessarily, I'm sure the manufacturer's records are computerized, and more and more gun shops are. I'd have no problem believing 10 minutes. It's only 2 calls.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top