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Thread: Expanding our view of the RKBA in the PRM...

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Expanding our view of the RKBA in the PRM...

    Here in the People's Republic of Maryland, most of the time, effort, and especially MONEY is spent focused on the "Right" part of the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and considering that that right is being egregiously abridged every day for tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens, that is a good thing.

    We've made strides in MD regarding the "Keep" part, although even that part is still heavily oppressed, considering that MD has an "approved handgun list" and puts repressive restrictions on certain long guns.

    The "Bear" part is also heavily restricted if you're not part of the anointed class of the Wealthy and Well-connected, and even though th eFederal Courts have ruled that MD's carry permit scheme is unconstitutional, Annapolis and Pikesville maintain their oligarchical stance, and have thumbed their nose at the federal courts by refusing to abide by their rulings and appealing the Woolard Decision.

    Which brings us to the "Arms" part...

    What, exactly, constitutes "arms"? Is this JUST handguns? Of course not. Is is just firearms (handguns and long guns)? No, not if you believe the dictionary definition of "arms". Although the carry of firearms for self-defense in MD is essentially a no-go, the law on just about ALL other "arms" is conspicuously silent in Maryland. With a few exceptions regarding the concealed carry of certain types of knives, brass knuckles and batons, there is almost no discussion of other arms in Maryland Statute...

    Sheath knives, swords, pole arms, boken, staves--these are all arms which have been used effectively and legally for centuries by law-abiding citizens all arond the world to defend against brigands, highwaymen and thugs of all types.

    Maryland law does not prohibit, restrict, or regulate the open carry of staves or swords. Yes, folks, it is 100% legal to walk around Baltimore, Annapolis, Rockville, or Chevy Chase with a Claymore or Katana across your back or a stylish rapier on your hip. Contrary to popular belief, long blades are LEGAL almost everywhere in the US for open carry as long as they are in plain view.

    How practical would a sword be for self-defense? Well, the seemed to work just fine for centuries in Europe and in the "New World" until firearms became the weapon of choice for most people. Would they be effective against an armed thug today on the streets of America? Well, that depends, I suppose, on the mentality of the thug in question, and the training of the person carrying said blade.

    I'm a trained fencer. I've been doing historical sword-fighting for over 20 years using heavy blades and training as if they were REAL swords used in REAL close-quarters combat (not Olympic-style fencing, which has almost NOTHING to do with actual swordsmanship...) Could I fend off an armed thug? Who knows? But then again, the same could be said of concealed carry of a firearm, if the attacker in question already had his gun at the ready and pointed at me...

    But I can say that the fact is MOST people are VERY afraid of knives. Even common street thugs are VERY afraid of being cut or stabbed.

    So, much like the deterrence provided by OC of a firearm, it could be expected that the OC of a REALLY big knife (i.e. a sword) would be an effective deterrent against most common thugs looking for a victim of opportunity. Not to mention the fact that to most urban criminals, a guy carrying a 36" rapier would look crazy enough that they would probably not want to risk dealing with him...

    So what am I getting at? I'm driving at the idea that perhaps one avenue we as RKBA Activists need to explore is to expand our concept of just what constitutes a self-defense "Arm". Since there are literally dozens of "arms" that have literally centuries-ling historical track records of effectiveness as deterrents and--when used--effectiveness as weapons, perhaps we need to start thinking outside the "contemporary box" of the definition of "arms".

    We can't carry guns in MD without a permit, and nobody GETS a permit unless they are well-connected. Firearms are heavily regulated, and even when the courts rule in our favor, the hubris of MD's oligarchical ruling elite comes to the fore and they simply tell the Courts to go pound sand.

    But nobody can do ANYTHING legally if you are carrying a sword.

    Perhaps it's time to do something that would REALLY force the hand of the oligarchs in Pikesville and Annapolis on this issue. If they REALLY aren't against the RKBA like they say, they there should be no issue with law-abiding citizens bearing "arms" that are 100% legal to bear under MD law.

    If however, they REALLY intend to completely disarm the People under color of law, and fully and totally abridge access of law-abiding citizens to their fundamental human right of self-defense, they will be forced to move against the OC of swords, staves, and other legal, non-regulated "arms".

    Which would look pretty darn silly--even to most whiney, leftist victim-mentality voluntary slaves that populate this god-forsaken pit of serfdom...

    I sincerely doubt that ANY person in a major urban center of Maryland would be alarmed, threatened, or terrorized by seeing a middle-aged white guy like me, dressed in dockers and a button-down shirt, with a spiffy ivory-handled swept-hilt rapier or a polished stainless Pappenheimer on his hip. Most folks, I imagine, would just consider me eccentric and maybe a little wacky. I imagine even soccer moms would ask what it was all about and not even be concerned that their precious little Chauncy was exposed to the vision of an historic weapon of such effectiveness (like they sometimes are when they see a--gasp--GUN)...

    It is time for the law-abiding people of Maryland to approach this issue obliquely, and REALLY think "outside the box".

    It is time to think SO FAR outside the box that our actions are considered ABSOLUTELY non-threatening and even comical by the general public--even if such an approach is, in fact, just as effective as a means of self-defense as a handgun.

    It's time to start doing things that will not only provide a REAL deterrent against the predations of criminals and thugs, but will ALSO make the State look like a bunch of insane, paranoid, insane power freaks if they attempt to stop or retaliate against it.

    It is time to give bad apples in MD's LE and Judiciary community the opportunity to show themselves for the color-of-law-abusing, Constitution-hating, fundamental-human-rights-denying oligarchical control freaks that they really are.

    It is time to stop throwing money at the problem, and start throwing CREATIVITY and BRAINS at the problem, and one way to do that is to turn this fight for our rights into a "theater of the absurd" where WE are the "straight man" and Pikesville and Annapolis are allowed to fulfill their true destiny and reveal their TRUE intentions--as power-drunk oligarchical overlords who are hell-bent on establishing state-wide serfdom.

    This is not an incitement for any sort of "fishing expedition". It is merely a suggestion to concerned, law-abiding citizens that they DO have alternatives for practical, effective self-defense in Maryland, and perhaps it is time we explore these alternative avenues.

    Let them take our swords from us.

    And we'll gladly just stand by and watch with satisfaction as the rest of the nation laughs and points their fingers at Pikesville and Annapolis in ridicule, shame and disgust...



    I'm sure there will be SOME folks in the MD "gun rights" community that will dismiss this idea as wacky, and will automatically respond with personal attacks on my sanity, an avalanche of logical fallacies, and claims that such "theatrics" will only be "damaging to the cause"...

    To them, I will simply ask, how's that "throwing money at the problem" tactic working out for you so far?
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  2. #2
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    "The Second Amendment extends prima facie to all instruments which constitute bearable arms. The amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existance of the right and declares only that it shall not be infringed.": SCJ A. Scalia 2008

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    "The Second Amendment extends prima facie to all instruments which constitute bearable arms. The amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existance of the right and declares only that it shall not be infringed.": SCJ A. Scalia 2008

    That sort of talk is "damaging to the cause" and will only lead to retaliation by the State if exercised...


    Thank you for that quotation. I'm sure I'll be pulling it out in my own defense--either in the Courts or from MD "gun rights" activists...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I think it's a brilliant idea! If I'm ever up that way again, and I have to venture into Murderland, I'll be sure to find a sword or other long blade to wear.

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Baltimore Open Carry...

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Wink You're so fickle

    First it was hobby horses*, now it's swords. Can't you stick with one plan at a time, Dreamer?

    * see http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...invasion-in-DC
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    First it was hobby horses*, now it's swords. Can't you stick with one plan at a time, Dreamer?

    * see http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...invasion-in-DC
    Actually I just REPORTED that news story. YOU were the one who suggested a "Million Hobby Horse March"...

    The Internet never forgets...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1742074
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Actually I just REPORTED that news story. YOU were the one who suggested a "Million Hobby Horse March"...

    The Internet never forgets...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1742074
    Seems like you missed the winky emoticon/teasing tone. Besides, "It's amazing what you can accomplish when no one cares who gets the credit."
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Any updates on MD courts rejection of 'Good & Substantial' clause?

    Just wondering if there is any progress being made. As expected, the state iseems to be stalling as long as they can. I lived and worked in MD from 1979 untill I retired in 2006. The best move I ever made was returning to my roots in Pennsylvania where they actually understand and adhere to the US constitution. I now have weapons permits from 3 diffferent states, including PA. Hopefully Maryland will soon embrace the Bill of Rights and accept the fact that the gvt is supposed to be there to serve the people. Not to rule them.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    We are waiting to see if the District Court Judge (Everett Legg) lifts his temporary stay. Any day now hopefully. MD has already appealed his original ruling striking down G & S to the 4th Circuit in Richmond. MD has filed their brief along with a few Amicus briefs from the usual suspects. (Brady et al.) SAF and Woolard file their appellant briefs next week I think, along with Amicus 7 days after that.

    The situation as of now:

    If Legg lifts the stay MD will have to process permits without G & S until such time as the 4th Circuit issues another stay if MD requests one (They will request one no doubt). Unless the 4th issues a stay or the case is decided at the 4CA, then MD must continue to process permit apps without G & S.

    That's my understanding of it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    We are waiting to see if the District Court Judge (Everett Legg) lifts his temporary stay. Any day now hopefully. MD has already appealed his original ruling striking down G & S to the 4th Circuit in Richmond. MD has filed their brief along with a few Amicus briefs from the usual suspects. (Brady et al.) SAF and Woolard file their appellant briefs next week I think, along with Amicus 7 days after that.

    Has a judge been assigned to the case for the 4th Circuit Appeal?

    Considering the 4CC is in Richmond VA, it might be safe to assume that the pool of judges to choose from is a LOT more pro-2A than the pool of judges in Maryland...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    It is a 3 judge panel, not a single judge. No, the 4CA does not announce the panel until the day of the hearing. Some circuits do this others do not.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-27-2012 at 05:40 AM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    It is a 3 judge panel, not a single judge. No, the 4CA does not announce the panel until the day of the hearing. Some circuits do this others do not.
    Ah, "transparency" in government--gotta love it...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Knowing how restrictive of the 2A MD is, I wouldn't doubt they take it all the way to the Supreme Court if they can.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Well if MD loses at the 4CA, all they can do is ask SCOTUS for a Writ of Certiorari. They cannot automatically appeal to SCOTUS. If the Court declines, then the 4CA ruling stands.

    But I agree there is no doubt that MD will continue to waste millions of dollars on a case that if you look at other SAF wins, is not winnable when SAF's successful strategy is that the 2A is a civil right. Look how long it took some southern states to comply with civil rights legislation in the sixties.

    But they had to.

    Judge Legg could lift his stay any day now so we could get some movement very soon. Then I'm sure the AG will ask the 4CA for another stay. I doubt he'll succeed on the merits however but IANAL.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Judge Legg could lift his stay any day now so we could get some movement very soon. Then I'm sure the AG will ask the 4CA for another stay. I doubt he'll succeed on the merits however but IANAL.

    So what you're saying is that we should have our MD LTCH applications filled out, and in an envelope ready to send, so that we can FedEx them to Pikesville the minute we hear the Stay is lifted?...

    It will be interesting to see what illegal action the MSP takes to weasel out of processing applications if the the 4CA doesn't grant a stay, or there is a "window" of time between two stays...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I'm not telling anyone what to do, but more than a few people mailed apps right after the Judge issued his ruling but before the stay was implemented 4-30. MSP did background checks, cashed checks and even started interviews. Anyone who applied after the stay had their app returned with their uncashed check. Since the stay was implement MSP went back to G & S and will until Judge Legg rules except those people who got their app in prior to the stay. They are sitting on those awaiting the ruling on the stay.

    If you can afford the app fee plus paying for fingerprints and a background check, I'd have my app ready to go. MSP no longer accepts fingerprint cards so you have to go to a Livescan location to have your prints done. They need to be sent to MSP within 72 hours of being taken however.
    Last edited by swinokur; 06-28-2012 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    If you can afford the app fee plus paying for fingerprints and a background check, I'd have my app ready to go. MSP no longer accepts fingerprint cards so you have to go to a Livescan location to have your prints done. They need to be sent to MSP within 72 hours of being taken however.

    Because, as everyone knows, after 72 hours, LiveScan fingerprints start to go stale, and you can't read them because of the fuzzy blue mold that sets in on the digital computer files...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    I like the idea of walking around with a five foot hickory "stave".

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    I like the idea of walking around with a five foot hickory "stave".
    Perfectly legal in MD, but it will get you fined and possibly arrested in DC, especially if you are on the Mall. There is a DC City Code that prohibits the carrying of any piece of wood that is more than 3 feet long, if it has a diameter of greater than 1" at any point. (it was put in place to keep protesters from making pickets with handles big enough to be used as bludgeons...)

    I was participating in an SCA demo about 10 years ago on the Mall--and we had permits from DCMPD, the Park Service, AND the Secret Service, and we STILL got hassled about our wooden tent poles for our historical pavilions, because they were wooden 6' long 2x2s...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Because, as everyone knows, after 72 hours, LiveScan fingerprints start to go stale, and you can't read them because of the fuzzy blue mold that sets in on the digital computer files...
    Apparently there are regulations of the unsupported retention of fingerprint records. I don't have a cite.

    This is fro the MSP web site:
    IMPORTANT NOTE FOR ELECTRONIC FINGERPRINT PARTICIPANTS: IF YOUR APPLICATION IS NOT FORWARDED WITH THE ELECTRONIC FINGERPRINT PROCESSING CENTER RECEIPT AND RECEIVED BY THE LICENSING DIVISION WITHOUT DELAY AFTER HAVING YOUR FINGERPRINTS SUBMITTED ELECTRONICALLY, THE APPLICATION MAY BE DELAYED OR RETURNED AS LIVE ELECTRONIC FINGERPRINT SUBMISSION RESULTS ARE RETURNED QUICKLY AND DUE TO THE VOLUME OF REQUESTS AND LAWS CONCERNING THE UNSUPPORTED RETENTION OF CRIMINAL HISTORY INFORMATION, THE LICENSING DIVISION MAY NOT STORE YOUR FINGERPRINT RESULTS FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD. DO NOT DELAY!
    You may not agree with the system, but it is what it is.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So what you're saying is that we should have our MD LTCH applications filled out, and in an envelope ready to send, so that we can FedEx them to Pikesville the minute we hear the Stay is lifted?...
    Yep. I'm working on a guide for non residents as we speak.

    It will be interesting to see what illegal action the MSP takes to weasel out of processing applications if the the 4CA doesn't grant a stay, or there is a "window" of time between two stays...
    There won't be a window. Given that CA 4 only gave Gura 4 days to respond, they intend to rule by August 6th.

    Also, there will be no weaseling. MSP's licensing division leadership has been in communication with MSI. There will be changes to the application (current apps will still be accepted) & the investigation process will be entirely changed to be de minimus.

  23. #23
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Please note MSP requires 72 hours or less between Livescan date and postmark for the app.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Wow, I really hope you long lost brethren in MD to get Shall Issue.

    As I have said before, if MD does become shall issue I may consider moving back in the future.

    Also, I wonder if MD will have reciprocity with any other states if shall issue is granted in MD?
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Wow, I really hope you long lost brethren in MD to get Shall Issue.

    As I have said before, if MD does become shall issue I may consider moving back in the future.

    Also, I wonder if MD will have reciprocity with any other states if shall issue is granted in MD?
    The lawsuit only strikes "good and substantial" from the statute. You still need a Maryland carry license to carry in the state, openly or concealed on your person or in a vehicle (unless you're doing regulated firearm trunk transport or transport under FOPA). Reciprocity would have to come from state or federal legislation.

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