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Thread: Rules, Rules, Everywhere There's Rules...

  1. #1
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Rules, Rules, Everywhere There's Rules...

    I really wish those passing these laws and statutes on gun control were required to spend a week - or even a day - carrying.

    I'm in my open carry infancy still. I've only been doing it for a few months. Before I started, I landed here, read as much information as I could absorb, familiarized myself with as much of the law as I could, and brushed up on my rights and responsibilities. Your stories and shared experiences - however trivial or epic - have been helpful, informative, and even inspirational for me.

    I can't OC all day, every day (work rules), but since I've started, it's become part of my routine and habit to walk out the door armed. My firearm has become my "American Express" card - I never leave home without it.

    I gotta tell ya... it sure is a pain in the butt sometimes. I've trained myself to drive by the front doors of businesses before parking to look for the gun buster signs - which is all well and good so long as the doors face the parking lot. But I have two scenarios this weekend which really sort of aggravated me. The first was while fishing.

    I took my son to do some shoreline fishing on Saturday morning. While we were doing our thing, a very polite gentleman informed me that we were actually on posted, private property. You could tell he felt bad about it, but I understood his situation. If they let people fish there, it'd probably become overrun, and he has a business to run. He very kindly pointed out another spot that was also part of their property, but was more inconspicuous, and said we were more than welcome to fish there.

    As we were packing up our gear, I asked if he minded if I came into his bar/restaurant to use the restroom. "No problem. Stop back when you're done fishing and have a couple of beers if you'd like." So I start following behind. He glances over his shoulder and says, "You can't bring that inside."

    Yeah, I completely "forgot" I was carrying. Or, more accurately put, I wasn't really considering the asinine rules about OCing into a bar/Class B establishment. It really put me into an awkward situation. My options were to continue "holding it", walk about a half mile to my truck and back and disarm, or, uh, hand my firearm off to my kid... Now, my "kid" is almost 17 and has been trained in the use and handling of firearms since he was about 10. I have no doubt that he'll be OCing the day he turns 18. But these are things *I* know. To the casual observer, I just handed a loaded firearm to a kid for safekeeping while I went into a bar. I can see the headlines now...

    Later that night, we went to a show at The Rave in Milwaukee. If you're not familiar with Milwaukee, The Rave isn't located in the worst part of town, but it's not exactly a "high class" neighborhood, either. The Rave has a strict "no weapons" policy and they pat you down as you enter. We had about a 6-block walk from where we parked to the door.

    My rights don't trump a business' rights - so be it. However, it would be really nice to see these businesses making an effort to accommodate these types of situations by maybe offering "gun check" services. I'd certainly feel better about leaving my firearm in the safe at an insured business than leaving it under the seat of an unattended parked car in a shady neighborhood.

    What types of awkward situations have some of you seasoned vets had to deal with?

  2. #2
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    You can oc in a class b if you have a ccl unless it's posted.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    You can oc in a class b if you have a ccl unless it's posted.
    I don't have a CCL, so I didn't have that option.

  4. #4
    McX
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    figure on; where ever crowds of humanity or liberals coagulate, you wont be welcome. i suspect that it isnt that they dont trust you, they dont trust them. watch them school zones. and remember to become an expert at the dance. carry on, carry often, carry out.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I don't have a CCL, so I didn't have that option.

    Ahhh.... a moot point but if the proprietor had given you permission to come in to pee it would of been legal as well.

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I don't have a CCL, so I didn't have that option.
    Bummer, you just missed a free WCI training class this past Saturday in Elkhorn .
    Wisconsin Carry Member
    My Castle Doctrine Law

    Don't wish ill upon your enemy......plan it.

  7. #7
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDFDE45 View Post
    Bummer, you just missed a free WCI training class this past Saturday in Elkhorn .
    dead guy there (avitar) speaketh the truth. since you both be 'round town.....mobile', maybe you should partner with the dead guy to get all the subtle nuances that irritated us all for so many years.


    developing a good relationship with Paul, to bounce questions off of wouldnt be a bad idea either.
    gotta run now, dead guy eyeing me like a cheeseburger, i'm outta here!
    Last edited by McX; 05-21-2012 at 02:08 PM.

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    I cannot stand having to do the dance. I hope MKEgal and that issue can set the record straight there. However by that time it will be my birthday and I'll be able to get my CCL. The dance & the school zone issue for non CCL holders is what makes carrying a real pain. However, when going to stores and the like the school zone issue doesn't matter but once they OC in a vehicle is okay then you will have to not drive near schools.

  9. #9
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Ahhh.... a moot point but if the proprietor had given you permission to come in to pee it would of been legal as well.
    He was the manager on duty. He told me his good friend owned the place. For a brief second I did entertain the idea of explaining that if I had permission from him, I could go about my business, but in the time it would have taken me to explain that and not having any idea of what his stance on the issue was to begin with, it was probably quicker and easier to just disarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by XDFDE45 View Post
    Bummer, you just missed a free WCI training class this past Saturday in Elkhorn .
    I've actually taken a class. I had issues obtaining my permit, filed my appeal, and have corrected the "roadblock" that was obstructing me. I'm actually hoping it arrives in the mail this week. Pretty sure I've spent more on getting my CCL than anyone else in WI.

    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    maybe you should partner with the dead guy to get all the subtle nuances that irritated us all for so many years.


    developing a good relationship with Paul, to bounce questions off of wouldnt be a bad idea either.
    I'd welcome that opportunity. I'm still going to try to make it to Lizzy's one of these Fridays.

  10. #10
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    I cannot stand having to do the dance.
    I don't actually do The Dance. It's been established clearly with the Act 35 law changes that carrying open and loaded in a vehicle is perfectly legal. Everything I've read on MKEGal's incident seems to call into question what constitutes plain view (she's accused of concealing the firearm the officer saw ). Until that aspect is sorted out, I've been traveling with it "hidden and out of reach" for the most part. However, I rearm/disarm while still in my vehicle rather than making a spectacle of it outside.

    Being left-handed and with the uncertainty of 941.23(2) right now, I figure it's best to keep it off my hip while driving.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I really wish those passing these laws and statutes on gun control were required to spend a week - or even a day - carrying.
    ...
    The attitude of those creating and passing "laws" is that the issues are solved if you get a WI license. Constitutional Carry was not even supported by the Republicans in Madison so we have zero chance of seeing it any time soon. It sucks but it is our reality. Also if you conceal it, people will be oblivious to the fact you are carrying and you may go about your business without these inconveniences occurring.

  12. #12
    McX
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    I'm still going to try to make it to Lizzy's one of these Fridays.

    well, if you get there, here's a recent pic of me so you will know me on sight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I don't actually do The Dance. It's been established clearly with the Act 35 law changes that carrying open and loaded in a vehicle is perfectly legal. Everything I've read on MKEGal's incident seems to call into question what constitutes plain view (she's accused of concealing the firearm the officer saw ). Until that aspect is sorted out, I've been traveling with it "hidden and out of reach" for the most part. However, I rearm/disarm while still in my vehicle rather than making a spectacle of it outside.

    Being left-handed and with the uncertainty of 941.23(2) right now, I figure it's best to keep it off my hip while driving.
    There is absolutely no safe way to load a firearm while inside a vehicle IMHO. Especially if you load one in the chamber. The only way I could see that is if you held the firearm pointed straight down to the floor boards and then loaded it. However if the weapon discharged it would go through your vehicle. I perfer to get out, keep weapon close to my chest and pointed down in between my shoulder width stance, and load. This way if it were to fire it hits the ground and flattens. May get some shrapnel but that is it.

    Anyway, wasn't trying to bash your way but it is how I was taught by several different people. I also am left handed and the gun is pretty hidden when on your hip in a vehicle. I donated to MKEgal and hope this situation is resolved in her favor along with the rest of us. This would make it so cops can't use their own judgement saying an OC on hip weapon is concealed if they can't see it..blah...Until this is cleared up I refuse to OC in a vehicle at my age without a permit.

    -OJ

  14. #14
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    I'd agree that there is a safety concern with loading/unloading within the vehicle. But to clarify, I don't load/unload within the vehicle. I arm/disarm. My firearm is always loaded and treated as such.

    Act 35 states we no longer have any requirement to transport the firearm unloaded. The magazine can stay in the firearm and there's no provision against having one in the chamber, regardless of whether the firearm is transported openly or concealed.

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    There are only two time when my handgun is unloaded. Those would be when I am cleaning it and putting a fresh magazine in. Other than that it is always loaded. The more times you load and unload the more chance you have of an accidental discharge happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I'd agree that there is a safety concern with loading/unloading within the vehicle. But to clarify, I don't load/unload within the vehicle. I arm/disarm. My firearm is always loaded and treated as such.

    Act 35 states we no longer have any requirement to transport the firearm unloaded. The magazine can stay in the firearm and there's no provision against having one in the chamber, regardless of whether the firearm is transported openly or concealed.
    Thinking Act 35 covers all the Wisconsin gun laws, is a mistake. Act 35 is a group of additions, changes, deletions and renumberings to many statutes. It's like looking at the plans for adding an attached garage to a house, and thinking that since it does not mention a furnace, that this proves the house is unheated.

    Also, please don't use the term firearm, interchangeably with handgun. They do not mean the same thing.
    You are quite right that this is complicated, and has rules upon rules. Unfortunately it is not helpful long term, to oversimplify something just to make it easier to understand. All those exceptions are part of the statutes, and most are enforcable.

    In fact here is a cite from 11Act35:
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/document/acts/2011/35

    SECTION 31. 167.31 (2) (b) of the statutes is amended
    to read:
    167.31 (2) (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person
    may place, possess, or transport a firearm, bow, or
    crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is a handgun,

    as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (bm), unless the firearm
    is unloaded and encased, or unless the bow or crossbow
    is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.
    SECTION 32. 167.31 (2) (c) of the statutes is amended
    to read:
    167.31 (2) (c) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person
    may load a firearm, other than a handgun, as defined
    in s. 175.60 (1) (bm), in a vehicle
    or discharge a firearm
    or shoot a bolt or an arrow from a bow or crossbow in or
    from a vehicle.
    There have also been other changes to Wisconsin firearms transportation laws, since 11Act35 was passed.

    The Wisconsin and Federal requirements to unload and store a handgun when on school grounds, has been discussed extensively here as well:
    http://forum.opencarry.org./forums/s...=1#post1653219
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

  17. #17
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    please don't use the term firearm, interchangeably with handgun. They do not mean the same thing.
    Point taken. I'll do my best to remember to differentiate when referring to law.

    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    In fact here is a cite from 11Act35
    Your citation affirms my claim, does it not? One cannot transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle unless the firearm is a handgun. One cannot load a firearm in a vehicle unless the firearm is a handgun.

    Wis. Stats. 167.31(2)(b):
    (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess, or transport a firearm, bow, or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless one of the following applies:
    1. The firearm is unloaded or is a handgun.

    (c) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may load a firearm, other than a handgun, in a vehicle or discharge a firearm or shoot a bolt or an arrow from a bow or crossbow in or from a vehicle.
    Here's a previous post I made that goes into more detail on this topic.

    Your primary point, though, is still valid and I thank you for (indirectly) chastising my laziness. I was indeed "citing" Act 35 as security blanket of sorts. I should have taken the time to reference the actual statues. Having done it in a couple threads previous to this one, I sloughed off a bit.

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