Virginia Beach CHP Application/Renewal Process Question (Nitpick or Not?)

I downloaded the CHP application/renewal form last night while I was OC'ing, and was OC'ing as I filled out the application (at a VERY OC friendly business that encourages folks to OC while there) and as I was planning my trip to the court house and reviewing my OC options/requirements for when I drop off my renewal....I noticed that on the Virginia Beach Circuit Court web site that it states that "Where To File: The application review process begins with filing the completed application with the Virginia Beach Police Department, 2509 Princess Anne Road, Support Division - Records Unit, Building 11 at the Virginia Beach Municipal Center."

Frankly I probably wouldn't have thought about that for more than a moment except for everything that I've learned on here about knowing the statutes and having read the stories about folks who've had problems with their application. So I can't help but wonder about this point: § 18.2-308 says that you apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court and doesn't say anything at all about submitting your application to the police (first or otherwise).

"§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun."

Cite out of the way, is this a nitpick or something that should be of concern? I'm referring to and thinking of all of the stories that I've read on here about folks having problems with their applications and the clerk's offices and wanting proof that the clerk has received the application and all that, and factor all that against that technically if you follow the Virginia Beach Circuit Court's requirement you haven't submitted your application to the clerk at all. And that you're actually "counting" on the VB PD to accept, review, process and then forward your application to the clerk. (And who gets the "blame" then if it is lost or otherwise delayed?)

Does §18.2-308 in fact allow the circuit courts to make their own interpretation of the meaning of "apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court"?

Oh, and yes I can actually OC to the VB PD if in fact I drop my application there -- they do have a sign asking you to not enter with a firearm but that is of course a suggestion only.

This is one of the things that I argued about with the Clerk of the Circuit Court for Hanover County. They required you to turn your app in to the Sheriff's Office.....that fell on deaf ears, along with the request to stop asking for SASE's.

Not sure of this as well, but the VBCC site says that the "concealed handgun permit applications are reviewed by the Virginia Beach Police Department and the Circuit Court." Which reinforces my concern -- as that suggests then that the VBPD probably believes that they have the authority/responsibility in accepting the application for determining whether THEY believe it to be complete/correct.

And I just realized that the application itself specifically states that the application "shall be forwarded to the circuit court of the county or city in which the applicant resides" and that the "applicant should consult with the court authorities for instruction and guidance specific to his or her application." But what does this mean? It doesn't actually state that the applicant forwards it so could that be then taken to mean that you deliver it where told and they then forward it? But the second part then falls apart when you "consult" with the court authorities (the clerk???) and they say that they haven't received it.

And while I'm on it -- seeing as how this application has changed some in five years....I wonder why they ask for race as a required piece of information? Has the actual permit changed to include that? My current one does not have race as an identifier.

ProShooter said:

This is one of the things that I argued about with the Clerk of the Circuit Court for Hanover County. They required you to turn your app in to the Sheriff's Office.....that fell on deaf ears, along with the request to stop asking for SASE's.

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Which begs another question -- the VBCC site doesn't indicate who will notify you, or whether you go to the police, to the clerk or whether they mail it. At least they don't require a SASE.

drdan01 said:

Which begs another question -- the VBCC site doesn't indicate who will notify you, or whether you go to the police, to the clerk or whether they mail it. At least they don't require a SASE.

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Mail it certified return receipt to the clerk of the court... use the date on the return receipt to start the 45 day calendar. If the court forwards it to the police, then thats on them... but it shouldn't affect the 45 day timeframe.

On July 1st, SB563 goes into effect, which adds this to the paragraph on how to obtain a CHP:

"No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this subsection may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."

Unless the Sheriff or PD are adding something to the application, it doesn't appear to me that this by itself will "fix" the problem. However... if you look at the very next sentence in the already existing code:

"The clerk shall enter on the application the date on which the application and all other information required to be submitted by the applicant is received."

How can the clerk comply with this law - yes LAW - if the application is submitted by the applicant to someone OTHER than the clerk? Not to mention what has already been mentioned, the LAW specifically says "apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court."

That would be more than enough for me to take the application to the clerk, following User's suggestion to take a second copy and have BOTH stamped as received for proof of delivery. Let them do with it what they want after that, the 45 day clock is ticking.

As User pointed out, the clerk does not have the authority to reject a court document that is being filed. It may take you reminding them of what their job is, as the "clerk of the court".

TFred

Blk97F150 said:

Mail it certified return receipt to the clerk of the court... use the date on the return receipt to start the 45 day calendar. If the court forwards it to the police, then thats on them... but it shouldn't affect the 45 day timeframe.

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This begs the question that I don't have the answer for as its been almost 4.5 years since I got mine (meaning that I don't know what has changed) -- but for those in Virginia Beach how did you get your permit? Did you pick it up at the VBPD or with the VBCC clerk?

TFred said:

On July 1st, SB563 goes into effect, which adds this to the paragraph on how to obtain a CHP:

"No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this subsection may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."

Unless the Sheriff or PD are adding something to the application, it doesn't appear to me that this by itself will "fix" the problem. However... if you look at the very next sentence in the already existing code:

"The clerk shall enter on the application the date on which the application and all other information required to be submitted by the applicant is received."

How can the clerk comply with this law - yes LAW - if the application is submitted by the applicant to someone OTHER than the clerk? Not to mention what has already been mentioned, the LAW specifically says "apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court."

That would be more than enough for me to take the application to the clerk, following User's suggestion to take a second copy and have BOTH stamped as received for proof of delivery. Let them do with it what they want after that, the 45 day clock is ticking.

As User pointed out, the clerk does not have the authority to reject a court document that is being filed. It may take you reminding them of what their job is, as the "clerk of the court".

TFred

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Although if as User points out that the clerk doesn't have the authority to reject filing the document it sounds like that in ProShooter's case that is exactly what the clerk in fact did.

I have 12 days before I hit the 180 days prior to expiration mark so that gives me some time to try it and see what happens. I'd like to figure out the "best way" to both renew and to "test" their seemingly additional requirement.

drdan01 said:

Although if as User points out that the clerk doesn't have the authority to reject filing the document it sounds like that in ProShooter's case that is exactly what the clerk in fact did.

I have 12 days before I hit the 180 days prior to expiration mark so that gives me some time to try it and see what happens. I'd like to figure out the "best way" to both renew and to "test" their seemingly additional requirement.

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What to do when the clerk refuses to accept and/or date stamp either your copy or the original? Excuse being not complete or not correctly submitted.

Have given this a lot of thought (will have to run it by User) and I would mark both copies myself: Hand delivered and submitted to Clerk of Court (+ name), date, time, location by (my full name). Would then refuse to take back the submitted document(s) and leave = IMO the 45 day clock would have just been started. Oh, and bring a witness.

Grapeshot said:

What to do when the clerk refuses to accept and/or date stamp either your copy or the original? Excuse being not complete or not correctly submitted.

Have given this a lot of thought (will have to run it by User) and I would mark both copies myself: Hand delivered and submitted to Clerk of Court (+ name), date, time, location by (my full name). Would then refuse to take back the submitted document(s) and leave = IMO the 45 day clock would have just been started. Oh, and bring a witness.

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This is where the mechanics of the process gets tricky I suppose. Do you suggest trying to give them to the clerk first, then if they say no, mark the documents and try to give them back? Otherwise I'm (literally) trying to imagine walking up to whoever (or do you ask for the clerk while refusing to say what this is about to whoever is working the counter?) to get the name, filing that out while they're watching and then trying to hand it to them in hopes that they take them.

Regarding the witness -- is that based on assuming that you can't have a recording device there (my iphone would sure make a nice video)?

drdan01 said:

This begs the question that I don't have the answer for as its been almost 4.5 years since I got mine (meaning that I don't know what has changed) -- but for those in Virginia Beach how did you get your permit? Did you pick it up at the VBPD or with the VBCC clerk?

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Mine was mailed to me.

drdan01 said:

This is where the mechanics of the process gets tricky I suppose. Do you suggest trying to give them to the clerk first, then if they say no, mark the documents and try to give them back? Otherwise I'm (literally) trying to imagine walking up to whoever (or do you ask for the clerk while refusing to say what this is about to whoever is working the counter?) to get the name, filing that out while they're watching and then trying to hand it to them in hopes that they take them.

Regarding the witness -- is that based on assuming that you can't have a recording device there (my iphone would sure make a nice video)?

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My courthouse (Chesterfield) doesn't allow cameras, recording devices or cell phones inside. The "court room standards" are applied to the entire Courts Building - IMO that isn't they way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is............for now.

It would be interesting to see what the response would be to a letter sent to the Supreme Court folks (been mentioned before as the overseers of local courts), stating that the clerk of court in umpty-dump, Virginia is directing me to explicitly violate the Code of Virginia by submitting my CHP application to someone OTHER than the clerk.

I wonder if the clerk would be willing to sign a statement to the effect of "I'm hereby acknowledging the fact that I am directing you to break the law..."

TFred

Grapeshot said:

My courthouse (Chesterfield) doesn't allow cameras, recording devices or cell phones inside. The "court room standards" are applied to the entire Courts Building - IMO that isn't they way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is............for now.

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If I recall, think that's the way that it is here in VABH as well. I assume that the whole idea of the witness is in the event that you need to pursue legal action vs. "no, I did drop it off and if you don't believe me ask my friend" kind of thing.

TFred said:

It would be interesting to see what the response would be to a letter sent to the Supreme Court folks (been mentioned before as the overseers of local courts), stating that the clerk of court in umpty-dump, Virginia is directing me to explicitly violate the Code of Virginia by submitting my CHP application to someone OTHER than the clerk.

I wonder if the clerk would be willing to sign a statement to the effect of "I'm hereby acknowledging the fact that I am directing you to break the law..."

TFred

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That would be interesting....but I suspect that an "easy" out for them would be to then say that they didn't require it. What made you think that? On our web page? Well, that's obviously a mistake or you read it wrong, but don't see that on the page when I looked.

Or the other side is that they take the "shall be forwarded to the circuit court of the county or city in which the applicant resides" and try to say that that's what they were asking you to do -- forward it through the VBPD. Which of course means that they are requiring applicants perform/conduct a part of their process (the law doesn't require the police to review it first as far as I can see). I understand why they want that review but this just seems to put the obligation on the applicant to initiate that review process so that they don't have to "waste their time" shuffling paperwork to the PD.

Can't help but wonder how many other cities/counties have a similar kind of thing going on. This all sort of flies right about radar height. As I said, had I not been a member here and already read other things I would have simply blown right past that.

drdan01 said:

If I recall, think that's the way that it is here in VABH as well. I assume that the whole idea of the witness is in the event that you need to pursue legal action vs. "no, I did drop it off and if you don't believe me ask my friend" kind of thing.

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I had to drop mine off at the location you mentioned in your OP. Don't quote me on it, but IF I remember correctly the people you drop it off to are clerks of the court just working out of the VBPD building. It has been a couple months since I applied so I could be mistaken.

MagiK_SacK said:

I had to drop mine off at the location you mentioned in your OP. Don't quote me on it, but IF I remember correctly the people you drop it off to are clerks of the court just working out of the VBPD building. It has been a couple months since I applied so I could be mistaken.

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Anything's possible I suppose, but I suspect that if they were in fact VBCC clerk's office folks then they wouldn't be telling you on the VBCC web page that the application review process begins with the filing the "completed application with the Virginia Beach Police Department at...." and instead they'd say to drop it off with the court clerk at the VBPD office. They're actually saying to "file" it with the VBPD.

But I've been to that VBPD office for meetings -- it's the First Precinct office. And if it is the same place that I dropped mine off way back (inside the front door then to their walk up window on the right) that is staffed by VBPD admin-type personnel.

TFred said:

It would be interesting to see what the response would be to a letter sent to the Supreme Court folks (been mentioned before as the overseers of local courts), stating that the clerk of court in umpty-dump, Virginia is directing me to explicitly violate the Code of Virginia by submitting my CHP application to someone OTHER than the clerk.

I wonder if the clerk would be willing to sign a statement to the effect of "I'm hereby acknowledging the fact that I am directing you to break the law..."

TFred

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A little history on Hanover TFred. The Clerk, Hargrove is the son of the late Delegate Frank Hargrove. When the boy passed the bar, he couldn't get a job so Pop gave him one at the insurance company. When the Clerk and Judge Dickie Taylor had a feud, the Clerk resigned under fire. Frank arranged for the boy to be appointed as interim Clerk. He has not had any competition since and following in Dad's shoes, does as he pleases.

Yes, the Supreme court Administrative section should be able to intercede/

Grapeshot said:

My courthouse (Chesterfield) doesn't allow cameras, recording devices or cell phones inside. The "court room standards" are applied to the entire Courts Building - IMO that isn't they way it is supposed to be, but it is the way it is............for now.

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That is by order of the Chief Judge. Its a battle you will not win.

ProShooter said:

That is by order of the Chief Judge. Its a battle you will not win.

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The internal physical design has been discussed prior - there are ways that it could be accomplished.

Still most likely will be a task to be solved through the GA - not a priority at this time though.