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Thread: Holster=secured container?????

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    Question Holster=secured container?????

    I have seen many people on here say that a holster on the hip counts as a secured container. Is this the case even though the seat belt is covering up both the gun and holster?? This makes sense to me but I would like to get some other view points on this. I feel that any decent lawyer would be able to beat a consealed weapons charge if the person charged was OCing with the gun in the holster while on the hip in a car.....Your Thoughts?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    I have seen many people on here say that a holster on the hip counts as a secured container. Is this the case even though the seat belt is covering up both the gun and holster?? This makes sense to me but I would like to get some other view points on this. I feel that any decent lawyer would be able to beat a consealed weapons charge if the person charged was OCing with the gun in the holster while on the hip in a car.....Your Thoughts?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone here post that a holster is a secured container and it isn't. This same issue came up on ECDL the other day. An OC holster is an OC device. It's open carry. If the gun is small enough that the seat belt covers it, it probably still is OC because if you get out of the car it;s easily observed. I don't wear a seat belt so I don't care but for those that do, wear a bigger gun or unbuckle the SB before you stop or just...don't worry about it because a hip holster is OC if it's easily seen.

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    A holster may secure a gun, but it is not a container.
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    Important note: the law does not require you keep a gun in a secured container. It says that it must be secured in a container or compartment to meet the exemption in 18.2-308(B)(10).

    So, while a holster is not a "secured container", a firearm that is in a holster is secured, and you are fully legal if that secured/holstered firearm is in either a container or compartment of the vehicle or vessel.

    Full text of 18.2-308(B)(10):
    Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone here post that a holster is a secured container and it isn't. This same issue came up on ECDL the other day. An OC holster is an OC device. It's open carry. If the gun is small enough that the seat belt covers it, it probably still is OC because if you get out of the car it;s easily observed. I don't wear a seat belt so I don't care but for those that do, wear a bigger gun or unbuckle the SB before you stop or just...don't worry about it because a hip holster is OC if it's easily seen.
    insightful as usual......However you should ALWAYS wear your seatbelt. But I see the law the same way u do. If I am OCing outside of the car and then step into the car I am still OCing .

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    I have seen many people on here say that a holster on the hip counts as a secured container. Is this the case even though the seat belt is covering up both the gun and holster?? This makes sense to me but I would like to get some other view points on this. I feel that any decent lawyer would be able to beat a consealed weapons charge if the person charged was OCing with the gun in the holster while on the hip in a car.....Your Thoughts?
    I've mentioned it before as a personal opinion. The General Assembly and the Courts have yet ( to my knowledge) to fully define what is and is not a "Secured Container". My opinion is based on on the text book definitions of both secured and container as follows:

    Container:
    noun
    1. an object used for or capable of holding, esp for transport or storage, such as a carton, box, etc

    Secured:
    - adjective
    1.
    free from or not exposed to danger or harm; safe.
    2.
    dependable; firm; not liable to fail, yield, become displaced, etc., as a support or a fastening: The building was secure, even in an earthquake.
    My SERPA holster, to me, fits those definitions. Just as a glass or cup is a container for holding liquid, my holster is a container for holding my firearm. The container is secured to my body and the firearm is secured within the container. What's funny is out of all the times I have mentioned it in other threads and forums you are the first person to comment on it. People seem to not have noticed when I write it out, or just didn't want to bother arguing...

    I do agree with people when they say that if you are OC outside the car then you are OC while inside..... but sometimes clothing and seat belts can inadvertently cover it up while driving.... So if a cop does decide to charge you under such circumstances why would this argument not work?
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Actually, Dan had the first case I've heard about and prepared a list of legal definitions od secured. which apparently the Commonwealth agreed with. I eed to start keeping a Dan Log.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Actually, Dan had the first case I've heard about and prepared a list of legal definitions od secured. which apparently the Commonwealth agreed with. I eed to start keeping a Dan Log.
    Yes, I believe his case involved a gym/duffel bag. If I recall his defense was partly based on the definitions that were set by other laws/cases but I never saw any official documentation on it so I don't know if the judges decision sets precedent for the defining of secured container for this law....
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    I have seen many people on here say that a holster on the hip counts as a secured container.
    I have never seen that.

    A local magistrate said he could put his gun in a zip lock bag and close it and it would indeed be in a "secure" container. But he said he would only count that for a sandwich, not a gun.
    Carry On.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Yes, I believe his case involved a gym/duffel bag. If I recall his defense was partly based on the definitions that were set by other laws/cases but I never saw any official documentation on it so I don't know if the judges decision sets precedent for the defining of secured container for this law....
    The definitions were based on existing law for other things using "Secured".

    There is no judges decision because the Commonwealth dismissed the case after Dan gave him his findings....so, there is no official ruling. Dan's research is pretty much all we have right now.

    Now, if someone were to go to Surry with a gun secured in a container, call the guard "Big Boy" and point their finger at him, they would be convicted (Unless they hired Dan), take it to the Circuit Court where they would get the death sentence, then there would be an automatic Supreme Court Review, and we could find out for sure.

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    If I recall correctly from the VCDL picnic down in Roanoke this past fall, someone there mentioned that a person had already been convicted in Bedford for violation of the concealed weapons restriction despite having their clearly secured in a container while in their vehicle. I'd have to do some digging to figure out who, what and when.

    Having browsed through Bedford GDC records perhaps this is the Case # GC11008935-00. It turns out the case was Nolle Prosequi on January 18, 2012, despite the arrest occuring September 15, 2011.

    If this is the guy that I was thinking of he also had 2 other cases about the same time. One was for contempt of court (found not guilty) and one was for driving on a suspended license (guilty).

    Cases: GC11008935-01 & GT11008970-00
    Last edited by jmelvin; 05-23-2012 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    If I recall correctly from the VCDL picnic down in Roanoke this past fall, someone there mentioned that a person had already been convicted in Bedford for violation of the concealed weapons restriction despite having their clearly secured in a container while in their vehicle. I'd have to do some digging to figure out who, what and when.

    Having browsed through Bedford GDC records perhaps this is the Case # GC11008935-00. It turns out the case was Nolle Prosequi on January 18, 2012, despite the arrest occuring September 15, 2011.

    If this is the guy that I was thinking of he also had 2 other cases about the same time. One was for contempt of court (found not guilty) and one was for driving on a suspended license (guilty).

    Cases: GC11008935-01 & GT11008970-00
    I think that was Dan's case. His memo to the CA is here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...weapon-statute

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I think that was Dan's case. His memo to the CA is here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...weapon-statute
    Nope, couldn't be. Dan's post about his memo occurred over 2 months before this incident in Bedford.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Nope, couldn't be. Dan's post about his memo occurred over 2 months before this incident in Bedford.
    Oh well...at least I found his memo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Oh well...at least I found his memo.
    Yup. Good find!

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    Regular Member GreatDaneMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone here post that a holster is a secured container and it isn't. This same issue came up on ECDL the other day. An OC holster is an OC device. It's open carry. If the gun is small enough that the seat belt covers it, it probably still is OC because if you get out of the car it;s easily observed. I don't wear a seat belt so I don't care but for those that do, wear a bigger gun or unbuckle the SB before you stop or just...don't worry about it because a hip holster is OC if it's easily seen.

    Personal experience chiming in but if you unbuckle during a traffic stop before officer gets there they will bust your chaps about giving you a seatbelt ticket...
    Mud Blood and Oil with a great dane along for the ride!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatDaneMan View Post
    Personal experience chiming in but if you unbuckle during a traffic stop before officer gets there they will bust your chaps about giving you a seatbelt ticket...
    Yeah but it's better than a concealed charge which is what the OP was worried about.
    I'm gonna have to put a seat belt on one day because I can't see how it can cover a whole gun.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yeah but it's better than a concealed charge which is what the OP was worried about.
    I'm gonna have to put a seat belt on one day because I can't see how it can cover a whole gun.
    It depends on the car. In my SUV I am sitting more upright and the gun is alot more visible than in my coupe where I am lower down and reclined. The firearm just disappears when the belt is buckled over the firearm, but I could take the time to slide the belt under but it's rather uncomfortable to do so in the coupe....
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ....
    Now, if someone were to go to Surry with a gun secured in a container, call the guard "Big Boy" and point their finger at him, they would be convicted (Unless they hired Dan), take it to the Circuit Court where they would get the death sentence, then there would be an automatic Supreme Court Review, and we could find out for sure.
    Are you suggesting a road trip?

    After the picnic, right?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yeah but it's better than a concealed charge which is what the OP was worried about.
    I'm gonna have to put a seat belt on one day because I can't see how it can cover a whole gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    It depends on the car. In my SUV I am sitting more upright and the gun is alot more visible than in my coupe where I am lower down and reclined. The firearm just disappears when the belt is buckled over the firearm, but I could take the time to slide the belt under but it's rather uncomfortable to do so in the coupe....
    Begging your pardon, Grease, in this case, no, it doesn't depend o the car, it depends on the gun...

    We all know that Peter Nap has a proclivity to carry only VERY BIG guns! I would submit that there is no seatbelt on the road that can cover one of HIS guns...



    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 05-24-2012 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    I have seen many people on here say that a holster on the hip counts as a secured container. Is this the case even though the seat belt is covering up both the gun and holster?? This makes sense to me but I would like to get some other view points on this. I feel that any decent lawyer would be able to beat a consealed weapons charge if the person charged was OCing with the gun in the holster while on the hip in a car.....Your Thoughts?
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Permit)-STICKY

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    First question under 18.2-308 is whether the gun is "hidden from common observation". That which is in a holster that is not covered by clothing or otherwise hidden is not "concealed". If the gun is "concealed", then it has to be (1) in a container; and (2) "secured". Peter Nap correctly identified the location of my memo on the definition of the word, "secured". But I can't see any General District Court in Virginia holding that a holster is a "container". So I think the answer to the original question is, "no": a holster on the hip is not a secured container. Just my legal opinion, not a legally authoritative conclusion, and it's possible someone could skate through a trial on that argument. I wouldn't risk it, myself.
    Last edited by user; 05-25-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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