Loaded car carry

slapmonkay · Jun 11, 2012

Sethrotull said:
I wanted to post an update to this.

First trip to Goldensale was uneventful and I had tons of fun!

This last week I took my girlfriend to Glacier NP and on US-395 just outside of Ritzville I was stopped for speeding. I was open carrying a GP100 in a cross draw holster on my left side. The officer approached my vehicle passenger side and ask the usual; where are you going? "camping" do you know how fast you were going "74 when you turned on your lights" etc. I had handed him my Oregon DL and Concealed Handgun Licence (just to get it out of the way. After talking to me he said "where's the gun". I said "I am open carrying" and looked down at my lap. He had me get out of the car and removed the paddle holster "just for during the stop" (I did not protest).

When he came back and gave me a speeding ticket he wanted to "give me a friendly piece of advice". He went on to tell me my permit was not valid in WA and loaded car carry was considered CC and he wasn't going to cite me this time. I tried explaining RCW 9.41.060 and its exceptions to loaded car carry (I had printed up the rule but left my copies at home), he argued but finally said "that only applys at your camp site"

I knew I wouldn't get my point accross so let it drop. He put my gun on the passengers dash and handed me a bag with five bullets in it. I said there were only five rounds here where is the sixth? He took my gun back and drew it from the holster to check the cylinder. POINTING IT AT MY GIRLFRIEND THE WHOLE TIME!!!! I told him not to point it at her and "hey you're pointing that at us". Well number six was still loaded and he stated dumbly "oh I guess it didn't drop out"

I am in the process of writing a letter to the officer to let him know of my reaction and copying the laws so he can be better informed.

What are your thoughts on the incounter?

a) You admitted to breaking the speed limit. Doh
b) You provided a CPL when one did not ask for it, putting yourself in a bad situation since your OR CPL is not recognized. Doh
c) You waved 4th amendment right by letting him take your firearm. You put yourself into this situation by offering information you weren't required to, which ultimately resulted in a firearm being pointed at you and your girlfriend.
d) .060 does not have any case law that I am aware of to define traveling to/from an outdoor activity. Did you have camping supplies that would have collaborated your story to the officer/court had you been cited?

edit: gogo beat me to it...

Sethrotull · Jun 11, 2012

Thank you gogodawgs and slapmonkay. These are the responses I figured I would get. I know I blew it on a few levels.

I know I do not need to show my CHL but have always done so without an issue (yes I know in OR) I have also always been upfront about my speed when pulled over (three times) and never have incurred a ticket (OR and WA).

I was a little unsure about my 4th Ammendment rights because I was being pulled over for speeding. (rethinking now it is clear as day).

Yes I had a ton of camping gear in an open station wagon so that wouldn't have been an issue.

I guess in the last 18 years of carrying (mostly concealed) I have always had good luck with LEOs. This incident has gotten me to think differently.

Again thank you for your advice, I will be taking it to heart and changing a few things.

DamonK · Jun 11, 2012

gogodawgs said:
You asked....so here is my opinion.

Why did you answer how fast you were going? You admitted you were breaking the law and now you will pay the ticket.

Why did you hand him an invalid CHL? Why introduce a firearm into the situation at all? As you experienced, the officer handled the firearm and apparently did so unsafely. Your answering the question of where you are going with 'camping' was perfectly sufficient and no further commentary needed to be made.
A proper response to the how fast you are going question is 'No, what seems to be the problem officer?' The be silent, let them write you a ticket if that is their choice. Your nature of carry and the fact that WA is a non notify state, you should of left the firearm out of the equation. You were and are covered by 9.41.060. The officer's opinion was incorrect and would not of held up in court and is why he gave you serial misinformation and did not give you a ticket.

+1
Exactly right in my opinion!

gogodawgs · Jun 11, 2012

Sethrotull said:
<snip> I have always had good luck with LEOs.<snip>

Good luck always runs out..... your inalienable rights never do.

tombrewster421 · Jun 11, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
I can tell you what has worked very well for me for almost two years now....

SLOW DOWN!

And I agree with the others - you waived every single Constitutional right applicable.

I've been trying to tell my mom she needs to do that.

Question: my mom got a speeding ticket on 8th ave. S that is on JBLM property but is not in a secure area. The officer was an MP and he noticed her CPL in her wallet when she was getting her ID out. He asked if she had a gun with her and she did not. She doesn't normally carry yet. I was curious how the whole federal property thing works if you're in an unsecured area and just driving on a main highway. I drive this road every day.

Anybody?

cpgrad08 · Jun 11, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
Federal MP's can stop anyone on Federal property and issue them Department of Defense citations. The DOD citations are adjudicated in the traffic court of the base in question. Normally the only repercussion of receiving multiple infractions is the privilege to drive on base is revoked. To the best of my knowledge, anyway....I have received 1 DOD traffic infraction in 28 years.

OK....looks like there might be fines associated with the infraction:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/CourtServices/cvb.htm

As an MP. We can issue state citations to civilians with the fines that have to be paid to off base courts.

tombrewster421 · Jun 12, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
Federal MP's can stop anyone on Federal property and issue them Department of Defense citations. The DOD citations are adjudicated in the traffic court of the base in question. Normally the only repercussion of receiving multiple infractions is the privilege to drive on base is revoked. To the best of my knowledge, anyway....I have received 1 DOD traffic infraction in 28 years.

OK....looks like there might be fines associated with the infraction:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/CourtServices/cvb.htm

The question is more in regards to what would happen if she did have her gun? Since its federal property.

gogodawgs · Jun 12, 2012

tombrewster421 said:
The question is more in regards to what would happen if she did have her gun? Since its federal property.

No prohibition. The prohibition is only in Federal Buildings.

Levi · Jun 12, 2012

If a civilian is found to be in possession of a firearm on a military installation without written permission from the base CO, they are charged with felony trespassing on a federal reserve and are tried at the closest federal court. Military members are charged with disobeying orders and are awarded at an article 13 hearing or tried at court martial. The military doesn't have and official anti-firearms regulation last time I looked; it's always a base by base CO standing order. Every base gate has a large sign that says "No Weapons, No Photography" and the base CO has the right to issue waivers with any stipulation they want.

When I was stationed at Singing River Naval Station, this issue came up several times. The firearm was always confiscated and destroyed. Sometimes civilians were simply put off base an barred from reentry and sometimes charges were filed. All were found guilty and all convictions held at appeal.

brboyer · Jun 12, 2012

gogodawgs said:
No prohibition. The prohibition is only in Federal Buildings.

Is it?

Title 32 Code Of Federal Regulations, Subtitle A, Chapter V, Subchapter D, Part 552, Subpart I:
Physical Security of Arms, Ammunition, and Explosives—Fort Lewis, Washington

552.120 Possession and control.
(a) Possession of weapons on the post by civilians is prohibited with the following exceptions:
(1) Engaged in authorized hunting.
(2) Engaged in authorized target practice.
(3) Engaged in authorized and organized shooting matches.

tombrewster421 · Jun 12, 2012

Levi said:
If a civilian is found to be in possession of a firearm on a military installation without written permission from the base CO, they are charged with felony trespassing on a federal reserve and are tried at the closest federal court. Military members are charged with disobeying orders and are awarded at an article 13 hearing or tried at court martial. The military doesn't have and official anti-firearms regulation last time I looked; it's always a base by base CO standing order. Every base gate has a large sign that says "No Weapons, No Photography" and the base CO has the right to issue waivers with any stipulation they want.

When I was stationed at Singing River Naval Station, this issue came up several times. The firearm was always confiscated and destroyed. Sometimes civilians were simply put off base an barred from reentry and sometimes charges were filed. All were found guilty and all convictions held at appeal.

So for your examples, would that only apply if you actually went through a gate into the restricted area? I'm just driving through a non secure area kind of like how I5 goes through the base.

Levi · Jun 12, 2012

tombrewster421 said:
So for your examples, would that only apply if you actually went through a gate into the restricted area? I'm just driving through a non secure area kind of like how I5 goes through the base.

On I-5 I believe that it's WSHP that patrols it and that you just need to conform to state law. Things like the museum that outside the fence are subject to base rules so that needs to be taken into consideration. Posted signs on federal reserves carry weight in court even if they aren't backed by federal law just base regulations.

gogodawgs · Jun 12, 2012

tombrewster421 said:
I've been trying to tell my mom she needs to do that.

Question: my mom got a speeding ticket on 8th ave. S that is on JBLM property but is not in a secure area. The officer was an MP and he noticed her CPL in her wallet when she was getting her ID out. He asked if she had a gun with her and she did not. She doesn't normally carry yet. I was curious how the whole federal property thing works if you're in an unsecured area and just driving on a main highway. I drive this road every day.

Anybody?

gogodawgs said:
No prohibition. The prohibition is only in Federal Buildings.

brboyer said:
Is it?

Title 32 Code Of Federal Regulations, Subtitle A, Chapter V, Subchapter D, Part 552, Subpart I:
Physical Security of Arms, Ammunition, and Explosives—Fort Lewis, Washington

552.120 Possession and control.
(a) Possession of weapons on the post by civilians is prohibited with the following exceptions:
(1) Engaged in authorized hunting.
(2) Engaged in authorized target practice.
(3) Engaged in authorized and organized shooting matches.

Yes, it is a common egress and not a secure area of the base.

Loaded car carry

slapmonkay

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Sethrotull

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DamonK

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gogodawgs

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tombrewster421

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cpgrad08

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tombrewster421

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gogodawgs

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Levi

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brboyer

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tombrewster421

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Levi

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gogodawgs

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