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Thread: A question - a LEO orders someone preforming a perfectly legal function to stop..

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    A question - a LEO orders someone preforming a perfectly legal function to stop..

    If a police officer orders someone preforming a perfectly legal function (such as OCing) to stop, under color of law where he has no right to issue such an order....what law has he broken?

    I'm getting ready to rattle a cage or two.

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    I'm watching this thread. Hopefully to learn something useful.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowesmobile View Post
    I'm watching this thread. Hopefully to learn something useful.
    It's going to be complicated Bowes, because even if Civil Rights violations occurred the Federal Courts in Va have a Boys will be Boys attitude toward LE.

    I'm not sure about the State.

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    From what "user" indicates, while the Federal 4th Circuit Court of Appeals seems to be content to let the police do what they like unless the violation is very flagrant, the state is much less tolerant of such bad behavior. I believe he offered that very opinion in regard to the Roanoke man who was detained and bad-mouthed by a Roanoke cop when the man didn't give him notice that he was carrying a gun (supposedly in violation of a "pre-empted" Roanoke ordinance). This particular cop already had stains on his reputation from time with another department in Pennsylvania, I believe. Unfortunately the Roanoke man took his issue (without representation of an attorney) all the way to the 4th Circuit, where the judges opined that they believed the policeman had qualified immunity for a civil rights claim, despite the fact that he was clearly attempting to enforce an invalid statute in violation of state law.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 05-24-2012 at 09:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If a police officer orders someone preforming a perfectly legal function (such as OCing) to stop, under color of law where he has no right to issue such an order....what law has he broken?

    I'm getting ready to rattle a cage or two.
    Well, logically speaking, if they only ordered (I'm sure they really only meant to politely request ) you to stop, I don't think they have broken any law. What they do after you refuse to comply with their non-authoritative order (I mean request), on the other hand, would be a different story.
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 05-24-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    While not 100% sure, I am pretty certain the best way to respond is to ask if your being detained. While I don't think they are specifically required to inform you immediately, they are required to articulate reasonable suspicion to a magistrate. So I think they follow up would be to ask what their reasonable suspicion is. If they don't tell you then ask why you are being detained. I'm sure the basic detention question will clear things up pretty quick. They would probably pull that "I'm just trying to talk to you" B.S.! In that case go on your way
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    While not 100% sure, I am pretty certain the best way to respond is to ask if your being detained. While I don't think they are specifically required to inform you immediately, they are required to articulate reasonable suspicion to a magistrate. So I think they follow up would be to ask what their reasonable suspicion is. If they don't tell you then ask why you are being detained. I'm sure the basic detention question will clear things up pretty quick. They would probably pull that "I'm just trying to talk to you" B.S.! In that case go on your way
    I'm not talking about response rayan and the response I gave them won't pass for flowers. They left me alone after that but I did video a less outspoken photographer being ORDERED to stop citing an non applicable law, then when I asked the cop about it later, he cited the same law but said I was OK.

    This really is a piece of a much larger puzzle with the Capital Police enforcing unfinished, inapplicable and or nonexistent laws...including no OC in the GA Building.
    I don't want to get much more detailed now because they read this site.

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    I figured I was misunderstanding you. The way I read it seemed too simple a question coming from you.(just from reading prior posts) I havn't been around too long so I havn't made the oppurtunity to head up to the capitol. I find it pretty ironic that they would read this site and then try and badger you knowing full well the people on here are much more informed than most.
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This is somewhat similar to the big beef I have with a local business posting a sign on their entrance that essentially makes up a law, in an effort to wield the power of the State to influence private citizens' behavior on their private property.

    I can't seem to find anyone who will agree with me that this is wrong, so I'm forced to conclude that you (or anyone else, including LEOs) are perfectly free to make up any cockamamie "law" you want to, and use it however you see fit to influence other people's behavior.

    Show me I'm wrong.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    I figured I was misunderstanding you. The way I read it seemed too simple a question coming from you.(just from reading prior posts) I havn't been around too long so I havn't made the oppurtunity to head up to the capitol. I find it pretty ironic that they would read this site and then try and badger you knowing full well the people on here are much more informed than most.
    Actually, they don't badger me rayan. Sort of the other way around. People who wear guns at the Capital are probably members of VCDL and are left alone more or less. VCDL and some of the other lobby groups make a lot of noise they don't want.

    The Capital Police are not gun friendly but know they can't really push their agenda past the Lobby's. For instance, for the last few years bills have been introduced to keep even CHP's from carrying in the GA building as well as forcing Lobbyists and media to go through screening. They have been soundly killed in committee.

    They do badger other people though which gives me ammunition to work with.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that any law has been violated such that you can go to the Magistrate and ask for a warrant charging them. However, there are a number of civil torts that you might proceed to complain of, and most of them do not need to rely on any violation of Constitutional rights under color of law.

    Having just said that, a search of the Code of Virginia yields Obstructing free passage of others http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-404 and Use of profane, threatening, or indecent language over public airways or by other methods http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-427 although this is going to be a stretch as the writing specifically limits it to radio and telephone. As User has taught us, the captions/headers have no meaning in the law (unless a judge wants them to have meaning). You might consider Disorderly conduct in public places http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-415 id you subscribe to the notion that their behavior
    ha[s] a direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the person or persons at whom, individually, such conduct is directed.
    I'll leave you the pleasure of perusing Blackstone for a deeper and finer examination of the various torts I allude to above. http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/blackstone/

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This is somewhat similar to the big beef I have with a local business posting a sign on their entrance that essentially makes up a law, in an effort to wield the power of the State to influence private citizens' behavior on their private property.

    I can't seem to find anyone who will agree with me that this is wrong, so I'm forced to conclude that you (or anyone else, including LEOs) are perfectly free to make up any cockamamie "law" you want to, and use it however you see fit to influence other people's behavior.

    Show me I'm wrong.

    TFred

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-481 Look specifically at Section 3.

    Tell me that making up your own laws is not an attempt to establish another government.

    Of course, then comes the chore of convincing a judge.

    stay safe.
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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm not talking about response rayan and the response I gave them won't pass for flowers. They left me alone after that but I did video a less outspoken photographer being ORDERED to stop citing an non applicable law, then when I asked the cop about it later, he cited the same law but said I was OK.

    This really is a piece of a much larger puzzle with the Capital Police enforcing unfinished, inapplicable and or nonexistent laws...including no OC in the GA Building.
    I don't want to get much more detailed now because they read this site.
    Skidmark had some discussion with the Capital Police regarding OC in the GA building when I showed up there one day for a committee hearing. Since skidmark involved himself, I stayed in the background, but later e-mailed the chief. I got no response, and failed to follow up afterward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's going to be complicated Bowes, because even if Civil Rights violations occurred the Federal Courts in Va have a Boys will be Boys attitude toward LE.

    I'm not sure about the State.
    That's fine. If I feel lost I'll simply ask for information. But so far this has been good. I like the responses!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Skidmark had some discussion with the Capital Police regarding OC in the GA building when I showed up there one day for a committee hearing. Since skidmark involved himself, I stayed in the background, but later e-mailed the chief. I got no response, and failed to follow up afterward.
    This is a touchy area for the CP Tess and every time I try to contact the Chief I get the same silence you did. In essence, they have no authority to prevent OC in the building. I'll get into that at a later date. There was a resolution but it was never completed.

    Finally, I have a portal that will force the Chief to fish or cut bait, not only in the Carry issue but in many things. It's taken a long time to get it in beautiful 1080P.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ....

    Finally, I have a portal that will force the Chief to fish or cut bait, not only in the Carry issue but in many things. It's taken a long time to get it in beautiful 1080P.
    Put me down for an autographed copy. I'll give you the cash for the preorder* at the picnic, where you will give me a receipt that also promises to deliver.

    stay safe.

    * Just how does one order a "preorder" anyhow. It's almost as bad as a "gun buyback" for assaulting the language.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If a police officer orders someone preforming a perfectly legal function (such as OCing) to stop, under color of law where he has no right to issue such an order....what law has he broken?

    I'm getting ready to rattle a cage or two.
    The way the law is now in Virginia (and has been for the last thousand years or so) is that the individual is expected to know the law, and what he can and cannot do. What a cop says about that has no greater force than anyone else's opinion, unless the order is within the scope of his official duties and authorized by law. For example the cop can tell you not to bring your gun into the courthouse, or order you to assist him in the capture of a fleeing felon. He can order you to get away from the crime scene, or if you're operating a motor vehicle, demand that you produce a permit. He's got to be involved in criminal investigation or some matter of public order, and the order he gives has to be consistent with his duties in that regard.

    So the simple answer is, "none", any more than you would have broken a law if you tell the dog-hunters not to drive their pick-em-up trucks on the public highway adjacent to your property. Only once have I had to tell a cop that I thought his order to me was not lawful. And I ignored it. But he didn't violate any law by telling me what he did.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Aw hell, Dan

    That argument lets all the fun steam out of this thread. ;-)
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    That argument lets all the fun steam out of this thread. ;-)
    Naaaa....ever play rumors?

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    If he "orders"... well, that term is fraught with possibilities, isn't it?

    Does he give the order as a condition for being released from detention, or to avoid being taken to jail? That, arguably, would be Deprivation of Rights under Color of Law, a criminal (not civil) violation of 18 USC 242.

    Ordinarily that would be a misdemeanor, with imprisonment not to exceed one year. But in the case of police, where "such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon", it's a felony, which can result in up to 10 years imprisonment.

    Enforcement? Good luck. I've certainly seen many cases over the years, but generally they were excessive use of force cases, where police or corrections officers "got their rec on" with someone who was already in restraints. That's a clear cut case, contemptible, and should be prosecuted.

    Merely "ordering" you to desist from a constitutionally protected activity, though, is pretty much like User said. You'll have a hard time finding a prosecutor who gives a damn.

    Now, if you can make a case that it's not just the activity itself, but that you're being picked on because of "being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race," you might get some attention if you squawk loudly enough.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Thanks KB. This doesn't involve me other than I got it on video and then the Officer explained his actions to me with the camera running, when I asked him.

    This is part of a package I'm putting together to expose abuses by the Capital Police and possible legislation to correct them.

    There are some gun issues that I really don't want to go too far into on line, where the CP's are far exceeding any authority they have and this is just proof of one such abuse in a non gun issue.

    The Lobby doesn't stop when the Session is over, it actually gets more active.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-26-2012 at 05:22 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    And the next piece of the puzzle. The Capital building itself.

    " The state is looking at improving the regulation process when groups protest at the state capitol. People who were arrested, like Shelly Abrams, were allowed to be there but technically crossed the line when when protestors stood on the steps of the Capitol which the state said was illegal. They were there to speak against the new restrictions on abortion clinics.
    "Our group of arrestees will move forward against TRAP," (Targeted Regulations of Abortion Providers) said Executive Director of Capital Women's Health Clinic, Shelley Abrams. "Regulations are coming out to regulate clinics and hospitals and we're going to put all of our effort into that."
    Abrams and the other protestors will head back to court June 19.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Peter - I have the paperwork requested re GAB and the Capitol. It is not "in order."

    The new Chief of CP is Colonel Anthony S. Pike. Kimberly S. Lettner has retired.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Peter - I have the paperwork requested re GAB and the Capitol. It is not "in order."

    The new Chief of CP is Colonel Anthony S. Pike. Kimberly S. Lettner has retired.
    Thanks Grape! I'll pick it up when we get together.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Thanks Grape! I'll pick it up when we get together.
    You two old farts getting together sometime soon? Let me know, I'd like to grace you with my presence as well...

    :-D

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    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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