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Thread: simple question

  1. #1
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    simple question

    hi, i live in allentown PA and i got stopped by a LEO and an under cover LEO the other day they asked if i have any weapons i told them i did and of course they took it and ran my serial numbers after i showed them my license just wondering if their allowed to do that?

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    No, they're not allowed to do that. Did they have probable cause to suspect that the firearms were stolen? What database did they run the serial numbers against?

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    no they did not i was standing in front of a friends house waiting for his car radio to be fixed i say the under cover drive by i mean their pretty obvious not fooling anyone 2 mins later we're all surrounded by LEO'S first thing they do is star asking irrelevant questions like do you live here,what are you doing and so forth as far as what data base did they run it through i have no clue he simply took my gun and license came back 15 mins later and gave it back


    do i have to let them take from my holdster or could i just refuse to let them take it and run my serial even tho he knows he can't he will simply because he's a LEO

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    It would be nice if you used capital letters and periods. It is hard to read your posts...

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    Sounds like you were profiled

    Were you wearing sagging pants, a hat on crooked and standing on a high drug crime street?

    Not saying thats enough RAS or grounds for any cop to stop a person.

    But as a lot of us know, cops seem to do what they want when it suits them.
    Last edited by Sig229; 05-26-2012 at 12:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeSTATE101 View Post
    hi, i live in allentown PA and i got stopped by a LEO and an under cover LEO the other day they asked if i have any weapons i told them i did and of course they took it and ran my serial numbers after i showed them my license just wondering if their allowed to do that?
    No, you gave it to them.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Thsi is becoming an increasingly frequent occurrence, and LEOs are getting this idea (that they have to "run the SN" of EVERY gun they are aware of) directly fro the BATFE.

    What most likely happened is that they entered the SN in the BATFE's gun registry database called "eTrace", and when it came up OK, they went ahead and entered the rest of your personal data of your DL, so your name and address and vehicle info will now be associated with that firearm.

    BATFE has spent millions of dollars on developing this illegal system, and is pushing it HARD to local LEAs. It is supposedly to trace guns that are reported stolen, and the ONLY guns that are supposed to be in it are guns that were reported stolen, but BATFE is pressuring local LEOs to enter EVERY SINGLE firearm they become aware of during ANY situation, even if that gun is legally owned and carried, and even if the presence of the gun is inconsequential to the RAS for the original stop.

    This entire program is illegal, unlawful, and is, in practice and application, a National Gun Registry.

    The BATFE needs to be disbanded, and it's entire upper management structure charged under 18 USC Chapter 115...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-14-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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  8. #8
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    A gun run is a crime-gun to Sarah, Michael and Jon (Brady, Bloomberg and Bonavia).

  9. #9
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Thsi is becoming an increasingly frequent occurrence, and LEOs are getting this idea (that they have to "run the SN" of EVERY gun they are aware of) directly fro the BATFE.

    What most likely happened is that they entered the SN in the BATFE's gun registry database called "eTrace", and when it came up OK, they went ahead and entered the rest of your personal data of your DL, so your name and address and vehicle info will now be associated with that firearm.

    BATFE has spent millions of dollars on developing this illegal system, and is pushing it HARD to local LEAs. IT is spposedly to trace guns that are reported stolen, and the ONLY guns that are supposed to be in it are guns that were reported stolen, but BATFE is pressuring local LEOs to enter EVERY SINGLE firearm they become aware of during ANY situation, even if that gun is legally owned and carried, and even if the presence of the gu is inconsiquential to the RAS for the original stop.

    This entire program is illegal, unlawful and is, in practice and application, a National Gun Registry.

    The BATFE needs to be disbanded, and it's entire upper management structure charged under 18 USC Chapter 115...
    Are you sure they are running it directly to the BATFE?

    I once was stopped and had my vehicle illegally searched in Pittsburgh.

    One of my Sig's was cased in the trunk and they ran the SN through the national NCIC where all reported stolen or lost gun SN's are kept. and the NCIC is also where the BATF reports all of their gun data.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Thsi is becoming an increasingly frequent occurrence, and LEOs are getting this idea (that they have to "run the SN" of EVERY gun they are aware of) directly fro the BATFE.

    What most likely happened is that they entered the SN in the BATFE's gun registry database called "eTrace", and when it came up OK, they went ahead and entered the rest of your personal data of your DL, so your name and address and vehicle info will now be associated with that firearm.

    BATFE has spent millions of dollars on developing this illegal system, and is pushing it HARD to local LEAs. IT is spposedly to trace guns that are reported stolen, and the ONLY guns that are supposed to be in it are guns that were reported stolen, but BATFE is pressuring local LEOs to enter EVERY SINGLE firearm they become aware of during ANY situation, even if that gun is legally owned and carried, and even if the presence of the gu is inconsiquential to the RAS for the original stop.

    This entire program is illegal, unlawful and is, in practice and application, a National Gun Registry.

    The BATFE needs to be disbanded, and it's entire upper management structure charged under 18 USC Chapter 115...
    Dreamer, typically your posts are dead nuts on, but this time, you missed the target completely. I'm not sure who you got your information from, but you may want to re-examine how well you trust what they are telling you.

    E-Trace is not a registry. It is an electronic way for local police to submit electronic tracing requests rather than a paper trace request. Compare snail mail and email, and you get the general idea. There IS a tracing database, which is populated by the trace requests the ATF receives from law enforcement agencies, it has nothing to do with and does not contain information about stolen firearms, unless the firearm is reported stolen from an FFL or shipping company (UPS, FEDEX, ETC). It contains the tracing history (manufacturer, distributor, wholesaler, retailer and purchaser(s)) of the firearm as well as model & serial number. It is not instantly searchable by LEO's, its not a "side-of-the-road" kind of thing. The tracing process can take days as it is a manual process, the tracer may have to call the manufacturer, wholesaler, distributor, and retailer just to find out who the retailer sold the gun to.

    What you might be thinking of is NCIC which in part is an FBI database that contains information about stolen guns. This is the database that the police use when they check for warrants, etc. However, what likely happened is the police ran the serial number against the Pennsylvania firearms "database" of purchased firearms. It was the Pennsylvania courts who ruled that since this "database" was not all inclusive, it did not violate Pennsylvania's prohibition of a gun registry.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shallnotbeinfringed View Post
    Dreamer, typically your posts are dead nuts on, but this time, you missed the target completely. I'm not sure who you got your information from, but you may want to re-examine how well you trust what they are telling you.
    No, actually, either you are misinformed, uninformed, or someone has lied to you about how e-Trace works and what the BATFE is using it to accomplish. One of BATFE's state goals for e-Trace is to get EVERY firearm offered for commercial sale in the USA since the 1968 Gun Control Act into their database.

    e-Trace IS a registry. It is a database of firearms, and includes fields for make, model, type, SN, owner's name, address, physical description, and a flag for whether the gun is reported as stolen, seized as evidence in a crime, or other reasons.

    The data in the e-Trace database comes from two input vectors:

    1) first-time purchases of new firearms. The info from the BATFE Form 4473 for the purchase of ALL new firearms in the US goes into eTrace

    2) When a gun is seized in the course of an investigation, if then the LEO runs a trace request it comes up "not found", the officer may enter the required info into e-Trace at that time.


    e-Trace is ALSO used as a tracing mechanism, but you can't do traces on guns if you don't have a database of those guns--so by DEFINITON, the databases that power e-Trace are a "gun registry" because they list the firearm's descriptive info, the original FFL who sold it, the first owner of a new gun, annd other various data. If you are not the first owner of a gun that is seized, traced and found NOT to be in the system, LEOs are not supposed to put you rpersonal info in as the "original purchaser", but there is no law, code, or statute that says they can't. And BATFE is really pushing LEAs to enter as much data in the field as they can, and pressuring them to NOT leave any fields empty if they can avoid it.

    From the "Illinois Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board" website:
    The eTrace application provides the necessary utilities for submitting, retrieving, storing and querying all firearms trace related information relative to a participating law enforcement agency.
    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/atf_etrace.htm

    ATFs instructions to LEAs are that ANY firearm seized in the course of a criminal investigation may be entered into the system, regardless of whether they know the firearm was actually used in a crime or not. The key wording here is "recovered in criminal investigations"...

    In addition, registered users are able to initiate a search on virtually any data field or combination of data elements such as firearms serial numbers, an individual's name, type of crime, date of recovery or other identifiers.
    And the REALLY evil thing about the e-Trace program is that the database is accessible by foreign governments and LEAs, including most of Central and South America, and several European nations as well.

    From the BATFE's own website:
    Foreign countries currently using eTrace include: Anguilla, Antigua, Aruba, Australia, the Commonwealth of the Bahamas, Barbados, Belgium, Belize, Canada, Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Curacao, Dominica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Germany, Grenada, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Jamaica, Japan, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, and the United Kingdom.
    I get the information from BATFE's website, and various LE-targeted publications and LEA websites, and pro-2A websites....

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...et-etrace.html

    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/atf_etrace.htm

    http://jpfo.org/articles-assd/etrace-nj.htm

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ration-scheme/
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-14-2012 at 01:51 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    No, actually, either you are misinformed, uninformed, or someone has lied to you about how e-Trace works and what the BATFE is using it to accomplish. One of BATFE's state goals for e-Trace is to get EVERY firearm offered for commercial sale in the USA since the 1968 Gun Control Act into their database.

    e-Trace IS a registry. It is a database of firearms, and includes fields for make, model, type, SN, owner's name, address, physical description, and a flag for whether the gun is reported as stolen, seized as evidence in a crime, or other reasons.

    The data in the e-Trace database comes from two input vectors:

    1) first-time purchases of new firearms. The info from the BATFE Form 4473 for the purchase of ALL new firearms in the US goes into eTrace

    2) When a gun is seized in the course of an investigation, if then the LEO runs a trace request it comes up "not found", the officer may enter the required info into e-Trace at that time.

    The one thing I dislike about the internet the most is people spewing mis- or incorrect information as if it were fact. Etrace, as confirmed by your links, is a paperless way to begin, retrieve, or check on the progress of a submitted trace.

    It ONLY contains information on the firearms that have been submitted for tracing, the results of those traces, and any information manufacturers voluntarily submit to the ATF. It does not contain information on new firearms purchases from 4473's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    e-Trace is ALSO used as a tracing mechanism, but you can't do traces on guns if you don't have a database of those guns--so by DEFINITON, the databases that power e-Trace are a "gun registry" because they list the firearm's descriptive info, the original FFL who sold it, the first owner of a new gun, annd other various data. If you are not the first owner of a gun that is seized, traced and found NOT to be in the system, LEOs are not supposed to put you rpersonal info in as the "original purchaser", but there is no law, code, or statute that says they can't. And BATFE is really pushing LEAs to enter as much data in the field as they can, and pressuring them to NOT leave any fields empty if they can avoid it.
    Again, you fail to understand what E-Trace is, and that is the root of the misinformation you are putting out. Once you realize e-trace is a paperless way to begin, retrieve or check the progress of a submitted trace, rather than mailing, faxing or calling in a trace, the rest is easy to understand. My dad put it well when he said "You have to have a solid foundation, if you don't, everything you put on top of it isn't going to be right". Your foundation is faulty, hence your conclusions are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    From the "Illinois Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board" website:

    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/atf_etrace.htm

    ATFs instructions to LEAs are that ANY firearm seized in the course of a criminal investigation may be entered into the system, regardless of whether they know the firearm was actually used in a crime or not. The key wording here is "recovered in criminal investigations"...
    Not sure where you got that "quote" from, but its not on the link you provided. In fact, the link you provided does a fair job of explaining what E-Trace is:

    ATF – eTrace Program

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and explosives (ATF) National Tracing Center (NTC), a service oriented entity, has developed an electronic interface to its firearm tracing services, called eTrace, which allows for the secure exchange of crime gun incident based data. Recovered firearms are traced by law enforcement agencies; a) to link a suspect to a firearm in a criminal investigation; b) to identify potential firearms traffickers, whether licensed or unlicensed sellers, and; c) to detect in-state, interstate, and international patterns in the sources and kinds of gun crimes.

    ATF has extended its on-going commitment to the law enforcement community by providing approved agencies with a paperless firearm trace submission system that is readily accessible through a connection to the worldwide web (Internet). The eTrace application provides the necessary utilities for submitting, retrieving, storing and querying all firearms trace related information relative to a participating law enforcement agency. This tool not only provides users with the ability to electronically submit firearm trace requests, but also to monitor the progress of traces and efficiently retrieve completed trace results in a real-time environment.

    To access and utilize the eTrace application, the only infrastructure an agency needs is a personal computer and access to the World Wide Web, thus empowering even the smallest of agencies to comprehensively trace their firearms and perform on-line data analysis. eTrace access is achieved by obtaining a valid user ID and password from ATF and authenticated using the eTrace site on the Internet. Each participating agency also enters into a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with ATF. The MOU is intended to formalize a partnership between the participating agencies with regard to policy and procedures relative to the access and utilization of eTrace services. Successful access allows users the ability to enter new traces, view existing traces, and run reports on traces for which they are authorized.

    To establish an eTrace account or for technical questions regarding eTrace, contact the eTrace Program Manager at 304-260-1540 or 1-800-788-7133, or at etraceadmin@atf.gov. In addition, an explanation from ATF is included at Law Enforcement Introduction to eTrace .
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    And the REALLY evil thing about the e-Trace program is that the database is accessible by foreign governments and LEAs, including most of Central and South America, and several European nations as well.

    From the BATFE's own website:


    I get the information from BATFE's website, and various LE-targeted publications and LEA websites, and pro-2A websites....

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...et-etrace.html

    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/atf_etrace.htm

    http://jpfo.org/articles-assd/etrace-nj.htm

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ration-scheme/
    Over the last few years I have spent extensive time researching the tracing process. I've read ATF publications, policy letters, white papers, etc, I've spent countless hours sifting through the internet, I've talked to people who work at the tracing center and asked questions about the tracing process. With the amount of correct and factual information readily available for anyone to find, it constantly amazes me the gullibility of people who read something on the internet, and regurgitate it back as if it were gospel.

    I believe that the ATF (and all government) has grown too big, too invasive and too powerful. All branches need trimmed, and the checks and balances of power need reset. To reach that goal, we, the people, have to be informed. We have to have correct and factual foundations, and conclusions that are supported by those facts, not based in illogical fear or driven by cries of "The sky is falling!".

    Your information is wrong. Your conclusions, which are based on this information, are wrong. The correct and factual information is out there, but it is a challenge to separate the wheat from the chaff. Hopefully you will take a closer look at your foundation and realize the areas that it is weak and take steps to better inform yourself.

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