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Thread: Lanlord

  1. #1
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    Lanlord

    So since it's been kind of hot lately I've been open carrying instead of concealing. The landlord where I lived knocked on my door to tell me that he said neighbors where complaining that I was carrying a gun and said he could post signs on the door and bar me from carrying on my place of residence. He said if I didn't show it he wouldn't post any signs so I agreed to keep my gun under my shirt if I went outside. Can he legally post a place of residence and prevent you from carrying on your own property that you legally pay a monthly fee for?

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller View Post
    Can he legally post a place of residence and prevent you from carrying on your own property that you legally pay a monthly fee for?
    http://wilawlibrary.gov/topics/landlord.php

    Probably not and certainly not after the fact of your contract and tenancy.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/cod..._code/atcp/134

    Quote Originally Posted by ATCP
    ATCP 134.09  Prohibited practices.
    (5) Retaliatory eviction. No landlord shall terminate a tenancy ..., in retaliation against a tenant because the tenant has:
    (c) Asserted, or attempted to assert any right specifically accorded to tenants under state or local law.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 05-25-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Any direct links? That's a lot of links to sift though.

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Landlords & Wisconsin’s New CCW Law

    http://petriestocking.com/blog/2012/...s-new-ccw-law/
    Landlords & Wisconsin’s New CCW Law

    As I’m sure many of you are aware, Wisconsin has a new Carrying Concealed Weapon (CCW) law. Wisconsin Act 35 was signed into law on July 8, 2011 and took effect on November 1, 2011.

    Since the new law was published, I have received several calls from landlords and property management companies asking me how this new law will affect them. Since the question has come up repeatedly I thought I would do a post on it.

    If you have any questions about the CCW law generally the best resource I can direct you is a document that was published by the Wisconsin Department of Justice in August 1, 2011 entitled “Wisconsin’s New Carrying Concealed Weapon Law: Questions and Answers“ If you are interested in learning how the new law applies to employers generally (not just landlords) you should read Petrie & Stocking’s Talking Workplace Law Blog posts on the subject here and here.

    The Basics:

    1. The law allows individuals to carry a concealed weapon upon their person in most locations as long as they have applied for and received a permit to do so.

    2. The types of weapon that can be carried include: handguns, an electric weapon as defined in Wis. Stat. § 941.295(1c)(a), a billy club, and a knife other than a switchblade. See Wis. Stats. § 175.60(1)(j). A handgun does NOT include a machine gun, short barreled rifle or short barreled shotgun. See Wis. Stat. § 175.60(1)(bm)

    2. The law provides immunity to owners of property who do not prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons on their property. So if you allow concealed carry on your property by others you will not be held liable for any consequences arising from that decision. Wis. Stat. § 175.60(21)(b).

    3. The law also permits owners to prohibit persons from carrying concealed weapons on their property.

    4. Prohibiting concealed carry on your property strips you of the immunity mentioned above.

    5. If you wish to prohibit concealed carry on your property you must post signs that are (a) at least 5 inches by 7 inches, (b) state that concealed weapons are not allowed in the building or on the premises, (c) specify the area where the prohibition applies if the prohibition only applies to a portion of the property, (d) place the signs on or near all entrances to the building.

    So How Does The New Law Affect Landlords?:

    An owner of rental property must decide whether or not they wish to prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons in their rental property and on the property grounds. Second, if they do wish to prohibit concealed carry they must determine if the prohibition will apply to the entire building or just certain portions of the building. Third, they must post the required signage.

    If you prohibit concealed carry in your rental property, and proper notice has been posted, then it is against the law for anyone to enter, or remain in the common areas of the building or on the grounds of the building after being asked to leave, while carrying a concealed weapon.

    IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE that Wisconsin’s new CCW law does not address a tenant’s right to keep a weapon in his/her rental unit. The CCW law only deals with carrying a concealed weapon in public places such as the common areas of the apartment building. So even if the landlord posts signs preventing concealed carry in the apartment building, that does not prevent a tenant from keeping a weapon in his/her unit. A tenant has the right to keep a weapon in his/her rental unit just the same as a homeowner has the right to keep a weapon in his/her single family home. So if a landlord does not want a tenant to be able to keep a weapon in their rental unit than such language must be included in the tenant’s rental agreement.

    Also, even if a landlord prohibits concealed carry in the rental property, that prohibition does not apply to the apartment’s parking lots. A tenant is allowed to keep a weapon in his/her vehicle if parked in the apartment complex’s parking lot.

    Many Unanswered Questions:

    Wisconsin’s new CCW law leaves many questions unanswered.

    One question that immediately came to my mind is what will happen in those situations in which a landlord prohibits concealed carry in the apartment complex but has failed to include a lease provision prohibiting a tenant from keeping a weapon in the tenant’s rental unit? The tenant has a right to keep a gun in his rental unit but how can he get the gun to and from his unit without violating the CCW prohibition since, depending on the layout of the apartment complex, the tenant will have to walk through a common area such as a hallway or lobby? Which “right” trumps in this situation?

    Taking a more broad perspective of the law, there are even more important questions that remain unanswered, such as:

    - How broad will the immunity provided under the new law extend?

    - If a landlord decides to prohibit concealed carry in his rental property is he opening himself up to increased liability exposure?

    - If a landlord prohibits concealed carry in his rental properties, does s/he now have a broader duty to protect his tenants or their visitors from someone that may enter the rental property with a weapon and ignores the CCW prohibitied posting? Does the landlord have an obligation to actively attempt to enforce his no CCW policy? If so, how should he enforce it? Does he have to post an employee at every entrance to ask people who enter if they are “packing heat”? Does he have to frisk people upon entering the apartment building? If a tenant is injured by another person who ignores the CCW prohibited sign will the landlord be liable to the tenant?

    We will not learn the answers to these questions until the DOJ provides additional guidance or until lawsuits are filed, trial court and juries make decisions, and appellate courts either affirm the trial court’s decision or not.

    For additional factual scenarios and unanswered questions raised by Wisconsin’s new CCW law I reccomend a magazine article entitled “Concealed Weapons Questions and Answers” written by Attorney Josh Johanningmeier published in the Wisconsin Independant Agent magazine.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 05-25-2012 at 06:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller
    The landlord ... said he could post signs on the door and bar me from carrying in my place of residence.
    Wrong.
    If he'd bother to RTFL he might even figure out how wrong he is.

    Can he legally post a place of residence and prevent you from carrying on your own property that you legally pay a monthly fee for?
    The short answer is no.

    Here's a PDF of Act 35.
    Here's a link to search WI statutes.
    Here are the parts you particularly want to read, understand, & probably even print out to send to the management company when you write to complain about the property manager.
    (Or if he is the owner, give him a copy + that link to the search page for the statutes.)
    Always best to go to the source documents.

    That opinion blog from (apparently) a lawyer is OK, but he's not your lawyer & he's not giving you legal advice. If you want legal advice, check with the bar ass'n to see who in your area deals in landlord-tenant law, & if they have a free consult session or maybe how expensive 30min would be... and if the landlord insists on breaking the law, that lawyer will have a heads-up to be able to start filing a suit.

    175.60 (21) (b)
    A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
    So the owner of the property is immune from legal liability if he doesn't interfere w/ you exercising your rights.
    To everyone except lawyers, this also means that if a place prohibits you from protecting yourself & you're harmed, they're liable.

    943.13 (1m) (c) (1) [trespassing]
    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains at a residence that the actor does not own or occupy...
    So even if he posts the building, or your apartment door, it doesn't affect you at all.

    Carry openly or concealed. He can't do a thing about it, other than not renew your lease, & then you'd have quite the legal case against him (or the management company), esp. since peacefully exercising a protected civil right probably is not in the contract as a reason they can kick you out.

    If people come to visit, you'd have to meet them at the door (or their car, if they don't have a carry license), take their pistols, carry them to your apartment, & give them back. Reverse when they leave.

    943.13 (1m) (b) [trespassing]
    Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises.
    This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out−of−state licensee if the owner’s or occupant’s intent is to prevent the licensee or out−of−state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner’s or occupant’s land.
    So visitors with carry licenses are immune from any signs telling them they can't carry on the apartment grounds.
    You're immune because you live there, whether or not you have a license.

    943.13 (1m) (c) (1m) [trespassing]
    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in a common area in a building, or on the grounds of a building, that is a residence that is not a single−family residence if the actor does not own the residence or does not occupy any part of the residence, if the owner of the residence has notified the actor not to enter or remain in the common area or on the grounds while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does not apply to a part of the grounds of the building if that part is used for parking and the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in that part.
    Again, a sign wouldn't apply to you, but would apply to your guests.

    943.13 (2) (bm) (1) (a) [trespassing]
    For the purposes of sub. (1m) (c) 1m., an owner of a residence that is not a single−family residence has notified an individual not to enter or remain in a part of that building, or on the grounds of that building, while carrying a firearm or with a particular type of firearm if the owner has posted a sign that is located in a prominent place near all of the entrances to the part of the building to which the restriction applies or near all probable access points to the grounds to which the restriction applies and any individual entering the building or the grounds can be reasonably expected to see the sign.
    The sign has to be posted at every entrance.
    The sign has to be at least 5x7". Not very big, & there's no standardization of design, which sucks. That's one thing that needs to be corrected in the next legislative session.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 05-25-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Wrong.
    If he'd bother to RTFL he might even figure out how wrong he is.


    The short answer is no.

    Here's a PDF of Act 35.
    Here's a link to search WI statutes.
    Here are the parts you particularly want to read, understand, & probably even print out to send to the management company when you write to complain about the property manager.
    (Or if he is the owner, give him a copy + that link to the search page for the statutes.)
    Always best to go to the source documents.

    That opinion blog from (apparently) a lawyer is OK, but he's not your lawyer & he's not giving you legal advice. If you want legal advice, check with the bar ass'n to see who in your area deals in landlord-tenant law, & if they have a free consult session or maybe how expensive 30min would be... and if the landlord insists on breaking the law, that lawyer will have a heads-up to be able to start filing a suit.


    So the owner of the property is immune from legal liability if he doesn't interfere w/ you exercising your rights.
    To everyone except lawyers, this also means that if a place prohibits you from protecting yourself & you're harmed, they're liable.


    So even if he posts the building, or your apartment door, it doesn't affect you at all.

    Carry openly or concealed. He can't do a thing about it, other than not renew your lease, & then you'd have quite the legal case against him (or the management company), esp. since peacefully exercising a protected civil right probably is not in the contract as a reason they can kick you out.

    If people come to visit, you'd have to meet them at the door (or their car, if they don't have a carry license), take their pistols, carry them to your apartment, & give them back. Reverse when they leave.


    So visitors with carry licenses are immune from any signs telling them they can't carry on the apartment grounds.
    You're immune because you live there, whether or not you have a license.


    Again, a sign wouldn't apply to you, but would apply to your guests.


    The sign has to be posted at every entrance.
    The sign has to be at least 5x7". Not very big, & there's no standardization of design, which sucks. That's one thing that needs to be corrected in the next legislative session.
    Thanks for the Info.... I've been wondering when this subject was going to come to light.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    CWP at home

    Here in "small town Wisconsin" I was casually talking to my landlord one day when the CWP subject came up. I told him that I had just received my permit and within a week, he sent for his and received it in due time also.

    I'm not sure how many people I have talked to and who, later, have sent for and received a CWP, but it's sort of like recruiting members for a civic organization.

    Thank GOD for landlords with COMMON SENSE!!!

    Carry on and carry often.
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  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller View Post
    So since it's been kind of hot lately I've been open carrying instead of concealing. The landlord where I lived knocked on my door to tell me that he said neighbors where complaining that I was carrying a gun and said he could post signs on the door and bar me from carrying on my place of residence. He said if I didn't show it he wouldn't post any signs so I agreed to keep my gun under my shirt if I went outside. Can he legally post a place of residence and prevent you from carrying on your own property that you legally pay a monthly fee for?
    Great question and one that comes up during most concealed carry classes. I think MKEGal covered it very well as did the Herr. From my understanding of the law(s) if you legally own or occupy (I.E. rent) property you do not give up your rights unless you signed them away in your lease/rental contract.

    There are a few items of interest in ACT 35 that may or may not apply such as this:

    943.13 (3) Whoever erects on the land of another
    signs which are the same as or similar to those described
    in sub. (2) (am) without obtaining the express consent of
    the lawful occupant of or holder of legal title to such land
    is subject to a Class C forfeiture.

    and this:

    947.01 (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that
    indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the
    person apply, a person is not in violation of, and may not
    be charged with a violation of, this section for loading,
    carrying, or going armed with a firearm, without regard
    to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed or openly
    carried.

    Both parts above are in ACT 35 linked by MKEGal. ACT 35 makes some interesting reading material. My personal opinion is if I own or rent property then I legally occupy it and therefore I can legally go from the parking lot to and from and occupy my property regardless of any "Firearm Prohibition Signs".

    Good luck and carry on!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  9. #9
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller View Post
    Any direct links? That's a lot of links to sift though.
    Things must be slow over at WAVE; eh???
    Bale da Hay

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    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
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