Open carry and condo associations in Washington state.

jsanchez · May 26, 2012

So whats the deal with open carry and condo associations in washington state. I searched the threads here and didn't find anything. I bought a new condo and am wondering if they can ban me. Its a brand new developement and we homeowners have just taken over from the builder. No rules as of yet on the books in this condo developement. Any Idea's on this.

FMCDH · May 26, 2012

Owning a condo and being part of an HOA myself, I can tell you this...

They can make up any HOA rule they want that doesn't conflict with law, however enforcing those rules against owners is time consuming and often expensive, so they normally try all other methods first before going the "legal" route. That said, most HOAs have a tendency to avoid making silly rules that start encroaching on civil rights that don't involve alteration of the property in some way.

As long as your not acting like an ass-hat to people, I seriously doubt you will have troubles in this state. If someone legally carrying a gun on HOA common property is seen as causing a problem, I doubt creating new HOA rules will be the first or even second way they will choose to try to handle it.

Become an HOA board member, and you will have even less of a chance of having an issue. Might even give you the chance to educate.

massivedesign · May 26, 2012

They can ban firearms in the common areas, sure. But if passing through that common area is the only way to and from your domicile, then that path wouldn't be enforceable.

The best way is to look at the CC&R's and your By-Laws to see what is already in there. Also, look at how hard it is TO get something in there. If the board can add a rule without membership input/votes, you can be screwed pretty easily.

amlevin · May 27, 2012

massivedesign said:
If the board can add a rule without membership input/votes, you can be screwed pretty easily.

That's pretty much an impossibility under most Association Bylaws and State Law regulating HOA's/
Condo Associations.

I sat on a HOA board for a while and they aren't legally allowed to vary from the original HOA declaration and Bylaws without involvement of the members.
Board Members can sometimes be a-holes and annoy their membership but they usually get their "you know whats" whacked pretty hard by the others when they expose the Association to legal liability. Remember, ALL the members have to pay for any damages a court may award.

As a final note, it would pay for one to carefully read the CC'R's and Association Bylaws before buying in. It's too late to discover something you don't like and try and change it after the fact. In WA State, a copy of the CC'Rs and bylaws have to be provided a prospective purchaser in advance and with sufficient time to read, before a sale can be consummated.

Jeff Hayes · May 27, 2012

Don't voluntarily live where others have that much control over that big of a portion of your life. I did it once, did not like it, won't ever do it again.

massivedesign · May 27, 2012

President of an HOA for the last 3 years.. Board for 6 (until last week.. FINALLY resigned, and it's already going to crap)

While it is true that state law requires involvement of the members by default, there is no solid definition as to what that number is. I know of one HOA that can amend the By-Laws and CC&R's with a majority vote of a quorum of 10% (in person or in proxy). 250 homes, lets say 50 are in arrears, so they can't vote = 200 homes. A quorum outlined in the by-laws is 10%, so 20 people needed for quorum. All you need is 11 people to vote in favor of the change and you have it.. 11 people out of 200 that can make that change.

Also, common areas are usually not governed under the CC&R's, and the By-Laws are just about powers and rights The board can typically create a "rule" about use of the common areas. Dog's on a leash, no open containers, no GUNS, speed limit 8mph etc.

I agree, perform due diligence before making that choice. It looks like he already bought, so his DD period has expired. If he was not given a copy of the governing docs, then he has a legal case against the title company, not the HOA.

amlevin said:
That's pretty much an impossibility under most Association Bylaws and State Law regulating HOA's/
Condo Associations.

I sat on a HOA board for a while and they aren't legally allowed to vary from the original HOA declaration and Bylaws without involvement of the members.
Board Members can sometimes be a-holes and annoy their membership but they usually get their "you know whats" whacked pretty hard by the others when they expose the Association to legal liability. Remember, ALL the members have to pay for any damages a court may award.

As a final note, it would pay for one to carefully read the CC'R's and Association Bylaws before buying in. It's too late to discover something you don't like and try and change it after the fact. In WA State, a copy of the CC'Rs and bylaws have to be provided a prospective purchaser in advance and with sufficient time to read, before a sale can be consummated.

amlevin · May 28, 2012

Orphan said:
Don't voluntarily live where others have that much control over that big of a portion of your life. I did it once, did not like it, won't ever do it again.

If you want to live in an area convenient to work and services, it's sometimes necessary to live in urban areas. Many of those areas have two kinds of properties. Well maintained by their owners who are proud of what their homes look like, and those that look like a backwoods house in Kentucky. Cars, appliances, and junk everywhere. Blue tarp on the roof to cover the damage from the 2004 windstorm, etc.

The only way you can keep your neighborhood from looking like crap is an Association, like it or not.

Of course one can always buy a piece of land out in the country and have enough "buffer" around them so that the neighbors collection of old broken down taxi's and ice cream trucks isn't visible to you. Great idea if you don't mind the extra time and costs associated with the "trip to town" or to work. Not practical for everyone.

I've lived in HOA controlled areas for over 30 years. When I sold the last two times, my properties sold for far more than similar properties in non HOA areas. I guess some people do like them. As for denying constitutional rights, read some of the recent court decisions on that topic. HOA's are not superior to the Constitution.

ak56 · May 28, 2012

amlevin said:
.

The only way you can keep your neighborhood from looking like crap is an Association, like it or not.

QUOTE]

B.S.

Never lived in a HOA area, never will, and many are very nice areas.

sudden valley gunner · May 28, 2012

ak56 said:
amlevin said:

.

The only way you can keep your neighborhood from looking like crap is an Association, like it or not.

QUOTE]

B.S.

Never lived in a HOA area, never will, and many are very nice areas.

Click to expand...

But they can't control how often you mow your lawn and the color of your house....(sarcasm).

HOA's are a perfect example of why we are not supposed to be a democracy.

My HOA decided that a non vote is a yes vote in their favor......my HOA was supposed to expire in the year 2000 and then continue in 10 yr increments they just ignored that. My HOA are ran by a bunch of old retired people from Canada, and California, and other areas like Chicago. They like to schedule meetings in the middle of the day when the majority of the working people here can't attend them.

I personally feel if they are not on your title they shouldn't have so much say in your property.

Jeff Hayes · May 28, 2012

amlevin said:
If you want to live in an area convenient to work and services, it's sometimes necessary to live in urban areas. Many of those areas have two kinds of properties. Well maintained by their owners who are proud of what their homes look like, and those that look like a backwoods house in Kentucky. Cars, appliances, and junk everywhere. Blue tarp on the roof to cover the damage from the 2004 windstorm, etc.

The only way you can keep your neighborhood from looking like crap is an Association, like it or not.

Of course one can always buy a piece of land out in the country and have enough "buffer" around them so that the neighbors collection of old broken down taxi's and ice cream trucks isn't visible to you. Great idea if you don't mind the extra time and costs associated with the "trip to town" or to work. Not practical for everyone.

I've lived in HOA controlled areas for over 30 years. When I sold the last two times, my properties sold for far more than similar properties in non HOA areas. I guess some people do like them. As for denying constitutional rights, read some of the recent court decisions on that topic. HOA's are not superior to the Constitution.

amlevin I never mentioned HOA's being superior to the Constitution. To each his own, I simply expressed my opinion. I live out a ways on 40 acres have my own shooting range. The 20 minute drive to town is not a bother for me. Most of you that live in town spend that much time commuting the difference being I travel 18 miles in 20 minutes and you travel 5 miles in 20 minutes. Trust me when I say I am glad lots of you want to live in town the less people out here the happier we country folk are.

massivedesign · May 28, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
My HOA decided that a non vote is a yes vote in their favor......

I would sue the crap out of that HOA for violating many non-profit laws regarding use of Proxy.

amlevin · May 29, 2012

massivedesign said:
I would sue the crap out of that HOA for violating many non-profit laws regarding use of Proxy.

My HOA played the same game, along with a few others, until I pointed out to them that regardless of what they wrote into the bylaws, State Law had something to say on what they had to do with voting.

FWIW, most HOA "Boards" are totally unaware that they are governed by RCW 64.38 and more specifically http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=64.38.025

Even for those that were "aware", it changed on Jan 1 of this year.

sudden valley gunner · May 29, 2012

massivedesign said:
I would sue the crap out of that HOA for violating many non-profit laws regarding use of Proxy.

I'd sue them for a lot more than that if I had the money. Problem is they use our money to fight us with expensive lawyers.....

Freedom1Man · May 29, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
I'd sue them for a lot more than that if I had the money. Problem is they use our money to fight us with expensive lawyers.....

You can sue them as individuals. They cannot engage in violating the law under the name of the HOA.

Just an FYI. When the lose they could have to forfeit their homes to reimburse the HOA's legal costs.... Just saying.

hermannr · May 29, 2012

I have lived in rural areas all of my life...I would NEVER submit to other people controling what I can or cannot do with my own property, one of the reasons I won't live in town, let alone in a place with a HOA.

I remember one gal that used to work for me. Her husband was a big wig for ATT, and also a Native American. They bought into some development down on the water in Mukilteo..they HOA tried to fine them because her husband parked his pickup truck in view of the street! Male Bovine Excretement! I park my pickup anywhere I want, I shoot in my back yard when I want, and if my neighbor does not cut his grass...well that is his problem, not mine...I can't see his grass anyway.

Metalhead47 · May 30, 2012

hermannr said:
I have lived in rural areas all of my life...I would NEVER submit to other people controling what I can or cannot do with my own property, one of the reasons I won't live in town, let alone in a place with a HOA.

I remember one gal that used to work for me. Her husband was a big wig for ATT, and also a Native American. They bought into some development down on the water in Mukilteo..they HOA tried to fine them because her husband parked his pickup truck in view of the street! Male Bovine Excretement! I park my pickup anywhere I want, I shoot in my back yard when I want, and if my neighbor does not cut his grass...well that is his problem, not mine...I can't see his grass anyway.

This.

I just don't understand the attraction to a cookie cutter house that barely fits on its minuscule lot with a postage stamp yard, AND someone else decreeing what the "owner" may or may not do with his own property. If redneck neighbors with broke down cars on blocks and unmowed lawns are the price for residential freedom, so be it. I'll even bring the beer.

amlevin · May 30, 2012

Freedom1Man said:
You can sue them as individuals. They cannot engage in violating the law under the name of the HOA.

Just an FYI. When the lose they could have to forfeit their homes to reimburse the HOA's legal costs.... Just saying.

Sorry, but most HOA's have a hold harmless clause for their Directors. The only "loosers" will be the individual "Owners" who are all members of the HOA. A suit successful suit against the HOA means damages (and attorney fees) are paid by the rest of the HOA members in the form of an "assessment". My HOA carries an insurance policy that takes some of the risk off our shoulders if our "Board" decides to go outside the boundaries.

massivedesign · May 30, 2012

amlevin said:
Sorry, but most HOA's have a hold harmless clause for their Directors. The only "loosers" will be the individual "Owners" who are all members of the HOA. A suit successful suit against the HOA means damages (and attorney fees) are paid by the rest of the HOA members in the form of an "assessment". My HOA carries an insurance policy that takes some of the risk off our shoulders if our "Board" decides to go outside the boundaries.

D&O Insurance will only go so far. Negligence and knowingly making / enforcing unlawful policies will pierce that veil. That's why it's always god to either be on the board to make sure actions are being done correctly, or voice your concerns at meetings and get them in the minutes.

My HOA is not bad at all, we are rural and our main asset is our 14 acre park with boat launch, 300' of waterfront swimming pool etc. All lots at .25 acres or more, 70-90's style ramblers and 2-story homes.

amlevin · May 30, 2012

Metalhead47 said:
This.

I just don't understand the attraction to a cookie cutter house that barely fits on its minuscule lot with a postage stamp yard, AND someone else decreeing what the "owner" may or may not do with his own property. If redneck neighbors with broke down cars on blocks and unmowed lawns are the price for residential freedom, so be it. I'll even bring the beer.

You'd understand better if you had the better part of a half million invested in your "home" and wanted to sell it at somewhere near that. It really sucks when one buys a house, even for a fraction of that, pays on the mortgage for 20 years, and then finds that the neighborhood has deteriorated so badly that the home either takes 3 years to sell, or sells for a fraction of it's equivalent value because you didn't have the ability to keep the neighborhood from turning into Tijuana North or "Dogpatch".

To each their own. I don't mind mowing my lawn, keeping my flower beds free of weeds, and painting my house every 10-15 years.

Jeff Hayes · May 30, 2012

hermannr said:
I have lived in rural areas all of my life...I would NEVER submit to other people controling what I can or cannot do with my own property, one of the reasons I won't live in town, let alone in a place with a HOA.

I remember one gal that used to work for me. Her husband was a big wig for ATT, and also a Native American. They bought into some development down on the water in Mukilteo..they HOA tried to fine them because her husband parked his pickup truck in view of the street! Male Bovine Excretement! I park my pickup anywhere I want, I shoot in my back yard when I want, and if my neighbor does not cut his grass...well that is his problem, not mine...I can't see his grass anyway.

This was what I was talking about earlier.

Open carry and condo associations in Washington state.

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