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Thread: Freedom of information act

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Angry Freedom of information act

    Can someone tell me how FOIA works? I need to try to get audio/video from Mt. Sterling PD dash cams for an incident that happened tonight. (Not gun related and it wasnt me on the receiving end of the arrest) I will explain later (cause it's bed time now) why I need this, but I know these things are time sensitive because sometimes things go "missing" on the LEO end. The short of it is an arrest was made because a person was being questioned by a LEO and asked about their Constitutional rights, and the LEO didnt care much for that and said something to the effect of "I was going to let you go but since you are so worried about your f**king rights you can go to jail" I would just like to have police audio/video to back this statement up.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  2. #2
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    You must be very specific as to what information you want, and when it occurred. If you want video, you will have to pay for the expense for the tape or any other resources. Most FOIA requests that are paperwork are free unless there's a ton of copies required. I've done a few FOIA requests to the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc and all were free. Here is a sample copy:

    http://foia.ilattorneygeneral.net/pd...20v1%20(2).pdf

    Note this looks like a IL form and citations to IL law are irrelevant.

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Kentucky state organization
    http://www.freedomkentucky.org/index...en_Records_Act

    National organization Kentucky state section
    http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/...en_Records_Act

    Wisconsin's Open Records Law implements the federal FOIA and prohibits artificial constraints on language and format. A simple telephone call in plain language is adequate. Secret codes and jargon are prohibited.
    "Magic words" are not required. A request which reasonably describes the information or record
    requested is sufficient. Wis. Stat. § 19.35(1 )(h). http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dls/OMPR/...ec_Outline.pdf
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 05-27-2012 at 06:23 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Thanks. I have checked with Montgomery county 911 and they have an open records paper on site for information. I'm going to see if Mt. Sterling PD has the same. Just wasnt for sure how to go about it. I would like to get an outsiders view on this from all of you. If your brother, sister, wife, neice, cousin etc etc was being questioned by LEO, regardless if they had or had not commited a crime but was trying to exercise their rights, (4th and 5th) and the LEO arrested them and made a statement such as "if you were not so worried about your rights I would have let you go home, but since you choose to exercise your rights I'm now going to arrest you and charge you with XXXX" (not word for word but thats the jist of it) Would you be upset and look at it is as the LEO was wrong in such a statement and pursue action against the LEO, or do you see nothing wrong here? Now I know if one of us were OC'ing and a LEO saw us jay-walk and approched us and ask for ID and we refused because he didnt produce RAS, and then he wouldnt give a clear answer on if we were being detained or free to go, and at that point we envoked our 5th and kept our mouth shut and requested a lawyer, if the LEO made a statement like the one above and arrested us for jay-walking (because we pissed him off with our rights) I'm pretty sure the forums users on here would be up in arms...This isn't a gun related issue but I feel a person should be able to exercise their rights regardless of the situation. Whats your take on it?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I'm pretty sure the forums users on here would be up in arms...This isn't a gun related issue but I feel a person should be able to exercise their rights regardless of the situation. Whats your take on it?
    Just because you have limited replies doesn't mean that we do not care about what happens to you. I have offered my assistance, that is still an open offer. I don't really care what right you want to pursue, I will support your efforts.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  6. #6
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Whats your take on it?
    Once in custodial detainment - arrest - exercise your right to silence and to an attorney.

  7. #7
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Just because you have limited replies doesn't mean that we do not care about what happens to you. I have offered my assistance, that is still an open offer. I don't really care what right you want to pursue, I will support your efforts.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't feel like no one on here cares. But a lot of folks on here have tons more knowledge about these types of situations than I do. And before I go requesting this paper and that video and this audio etc, I just want to make sure it's worth the effort. It just doesnt sit to well with me that an LEO says that you're being arrested because you were asking questions about your rights in a polite manner, and the reason you are being arrested (not being charged with.....but being arrested and charged with xxxx for asking about your rights) is because you just wanted to know your rights. If the person being(or could be) arrested said "f*ck you you no good d!ck sucking piece of sh!t cop" then I could see where the LEO would no longer be willing to "cut a break". But for the LEO to say twice that you asking about your rights is what pissed him off and now thats the reason you're being arrested sounds almost like a tyrant to me. To me it sends the message to "just accept what us LEO's say and don't you f*cking dare try to use your rights when dealing with us" Maybe he said nothing wrong and I will only waste my time with the issue. Honestly, I dont know to do, if anything.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  8. #8
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Once in custodial detainment - arrest - exercise your right to silence and to an attorney.
    Her asserting her 5th was what got her arrested. According to the LEO if she just "played ball" then she would have been on her way home instead of jail.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Her asserting her 5th was what got her arrested. According to the LEO if she just "played ball" then she would have been on her way home instead of jail.
    What specific crime was she charged with?

  10. #10
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    What specific crime was she charged with?
    Here is the story. My wife went to a restaurant in Mt. Sterling with 2 co-workers after work. Of course this restaurant had a bar so the three of them were enjoying some drinks. The way the story was explained to me is a guy walks into the bar section of this restaurant with his wife and kids. After a few minutes he tells the girls that it's a shame that he can't even bring his family out to dinner without people drinking. They told him that they were in the bar section of the restaurant so what in the hell did he expect? I guess a few F you's and kiss my ass were said back and fourth. My wife and her two friends decided to just pay the bill and leave instead of arguing with this idiot. So after they pay their tab they go to the parking lot and lean against my wifes car waiting waiting for one of the other womens husband to pick them all up because they had been drinking (per my wife she had 2 margaritas) While waiting for their ride 4 or 5 LEO's pull up. They start questioning everyone about the dispute that happened inside. I'm at work when my wife calls to tell me whats going on. She said she doesn't want to get tricked by a shaddy LEO so she ask what she should do. I ask her if they had ask for ID and she said yes and that she provided her ID on request. I asked her if she knew if they were being detained or if they were free to go. She said they had them blocked in by the cruisers and no one could leave. I said that it sounded like to me that they were being detained but to ask on of them the "free to go or being detained" question. I then told her if they are being detained to ask for RAS and tell them that you wish to invoke your 5th amendment right and to request the presence of an attorney. She then said to me "so if I'm being dentained it's the 5th amendment that I need......) Before she could finish asking if that was correct the LEO takes the phone out of her hand and says "if you just kept your f**king mouth shut and not worried about what rights you have you would be going home now instead of to jail" He said this once again in the cruiser. My wife tried to explain that she wasnt trying to be rude but just wanted to exercise her rights for her own protection. He charged her with PI even though she was no where near drunk. According to my wife the other two girls were sh!t face drunk but didn't get arrested because through her eyes they didnt piss the officer of by trying to legally protect themselves. By the way....read KRS 525.100 on Pubic Intoxication...no proof needed to arrest or convict. I call that "legal extortion" But anyhow, My wife and I feel like if she didnt question her rights or try to exercise them this would have been avoided...but who in the hell wants to forget about their rights or not use them because you may get screwed by them in the end?....I once read a thing that said "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost" Anyone else ever seen this????
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Last edited by flb_78; 05-27-2012 at 04:52 PM.

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    They key word in 525.100 is "manifestly".

  13. #13
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    They key word in 525.100 is "manifestly".
    KRS 525.100

    A person is guilty of public intoxication when he appears in a public place manifestly under the influence of a controlled substance, or other intoxicating substance, excluding alcohol (unless the alcohol is present in combination with any of the above), not therapeutically administered, to the degree that he may endanger himself or other persons or property, or unreasonably annoy persons in his vicinity.

    Did I read this right? I seem to read that this excludes Alcohol, as in if you only have Alcohol in your system only then you are not guilty of PI.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    The charge was AI (alcohol intoxication) but it seems that KRS words it as PI (public intoxication) The website I used was http://www.public-intoxication-kentucky.com/ Never a breathalyzer or blood work. No proof at all. LEO wrote on citation "odor of alchohol and blood shot eyes" Hell, my eyes stay blood shoot in summer due to allergies. And as far as a smell.....just because I smell a fart near you doesnt mean that you sh!t your pants. The above listed website states.

    "Many wonder if the absence of a blood or breath test can give them a “get out of jail free” pass. The answer is “NO”.

    Public Intoxication in Kentucky does not address the specific amount of alcohol or drugs in your bloodstream as a charge of DUI would. For this reason blood and breath tests are generally not offered. Rather, Public Intoxication arises out of the behavior of the person who is suspected to be under the influence of an intoxicating substance such as alcohol or narcotic drugs. To convict someone of Public Intoxication a prosecutor must prove that the person appeared to be intoxicated and that the aggravating behavior happened in a public place, the suspect was endangering himself or others or was unreasonably annoying to other persons in the area. To see the entire statute (KRS 525.100) refer to “The Law” tab on the home page."

    Even the jail staff was confused of why she was there. They even said sorry more than once even though it wasnt their fault. But nonetheless, a piss poor writen law isnt what has my ass on fire. It's the fact that she was arrested because of "POP" (******* off police) because she asked about her constitutional rights. Her friends have called her since and said things to the effect of "we were drunk as f*ck and we didn't go to jail but you had one drink and got arrested" Like I said before, this has me pissed because through my eyes that LEO was "teaching the lesson" of don't you dare try to exercise your rights or I'll make you pay for it. I know my wife and I know that if she ever has a run in with LEO again she will waive any rights she has because of this incident. I fear to say that her thoughts are now "those damn rights dont help you at all....they just get you in trouble" Bad mind set for Americans..I blame this LEO's choice of words for this one.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    I had a friend in a similar situation and she was able to get it expunged from her record. It still was a lot of hassle and had some court fees associated with it. I think you should definitely do a FOIA request. It's relatively little time and effort on your part--especially since they are the ones doing the leg work to find the information and reproduce it. I know I certainly would want to see the facts for myself. If this cop did, indeed, act and speak as you say he did, I would absolutely pursue this. Show the police brass what their henchmen are doing, go to the press, do what you can to make sure the SOB cop isn't copping anymore.

  16. #16
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay
    What specific crime was she charged with?
    Contempt of cop, apparently, since the official charge doesn't hold water.
    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation
    that LEO was "teaching the lesson" of don't you dare try to exercise your rights or I'll make you pay for it.
    Yep.
    To convict someone of Public Intoxication a prosecutor must prove that:
    1) the person appeared to be intoxicated and that
    2) the aggravating behavior happened in a public place, [and]
    3) the suspect was endangering himself or others or was unreasonably annoying to other persons in the area.
    #1 is covered by the cop's lie, but can be refuted by witnesses (such as their server)
    2 is given
    3 is arguable - the mere fact of her drinking appeared to be the annoyance, but there were words exchanged. Should have ignored the jerk... would have ticked him off more.
    Wonder why he wasn't charged with disorderly conduct, for instigating the problem?
    And since the other people were more drunk & just as involved, why weren't they arrested? It's looking bad for the officers.

    ***

    As for an ORR, if they have a public information officer or records department use that name/address.

    Here's a start, based on an ORR I did:
    This is an open records request for information relating to an incident occurring at approximately [time] on [date] at [business name & address].

    Please send copies of:
    * all audio &/or video of phone calls, radio traffic, recordings made by all devices worn or held by officers or in patrol cars relating to the incident.

    * audio of phone calls to or from officer's cell phones, and any text messages or emails to or from their phones or in-car computers.

    * audio & video from the car which transported my wife to the jail.

    * all reports, notes, etc. from all officers who responded to this incident.
    If you want more, maybe not for this incident but for something else, try this:
    * all memos, directives, emails, policies, bulletins, training materials, etc. currently in effect relating to... [topic]

    If the cost for these copies will exceed [$], please contact me so we can work out a less expensive solution. I may come inspect the records in person & make my own copies of the paperwork.
    As an aside, I've used my camera to take pictures of many many court documents. It's 14mp & that's more than enough resolution to make them legible. Here in WI, we (generally) have the right to inspect public documents & make our own copies, so if they try to quote you some outrageous price just take your camera & go do it yourself.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    *Sorry, I didn't read over MKE's post, just do what she said in that format, xD*

    Get a lawyer, give them pricks the sign that you and your wife ain't going to bend over and take it with a smile, it'll keep you out of court, and bring a copy of 42 USC 1982 [I think that's the deprivation of rights under colour of law ruling, I'm not sure.] or something like that.

    Give MSPD a phone call, and inform them that you are going to be sending an electronic mail letter to their office regarding the state's sunshine open records act. I had to do the same bit with the KSP a while back to get a lil incident taken off my record.

    Make the email much like:

    Mr. <name of person in charge of PD records>,

    Pursuant to the state open records law section KRS 61.870 to 61.884 and 61.991, I write to request
    access to and an electronic copy of; All records regarding the encounter, detainment, arrest, and anything revolving around <name of your wife> on or about the <day, date, year>. I also request any, and all video, and audio records prior to, during, and after the responding officers arrived on scene, and the arrest[s] made. I request the electronic data to be made available in any, and all formats used by the <MSPD> [example being .DOC, .PDF, .MPEG, .WMV, .CSV, etc.]

    As provided by the open records law, I will expect your response within three (3) business days. If
    you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference
    to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely.

    Please contact me with your decision, and the result of this request at <your email address, AND mailing address, also give your phone number>

    Sign,

    <your name>

    It worked with the KSP for me, just under different circumstances, and without the arrest. However, the USDA/BLM is proving to be a bit more than a c*nt when it comes to FOIA requests, xD.

    Hope this helps you but, hey, if theres anything I can do, be it a donation to legal fees, or anything else, lemme know.

    On a side note, this was at Applebee's, wasn't it?
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 05-28-2012 at 03:52 AM. Reason: *added disclaimer and not reading*
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    Here is a link that makes open records records request easy:

    http://www.splc.org/legalassistance/foiletter.asp

    A few things to remember:

    1. They can require to inspect the records requested in person if you live in the county where the entity is located.
    2. They can charge you 10 cents per page for copies of the records(they can't charge you for inspecting the records, and they cant charge you if you make your own copies with your own equipment).
    3. A few records relating to pending criminal investigations and cases can be exempt from release until the investigation or prosecution is complete.

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    go read KRS 222.202 and KRS 222.203.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    go read KRS 222.202 and KRS 222.203.
    This is what I was looking for. I thought that it was PI, I did not know kentucky had an AI.

    Also, KRS 222.202 and 222.203
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Her asserting her 5th was what got her arrested. According to the LEO if she just "played ball" then she would have been on her way home instead of jail.
    Gotta say man, that is some repugnant ****. First of all, nothing you say to the police can be used to help you in court, it can only be benign or used against you. if your statement favors you it is here say from a legal standpoint. Exercising your rights shuold never lead to an arrest. if they arrest they should not be able to charge and prosecute. "playing ball" is how police lock you into a story, and whether its true and legal, or false and illegal, if your story changes in anyway from a previous statement you have just lied to a police officer and that is illegal, its a lose- lose situation, so just invoke your fourth and fifth amendment rights and wait for a lawyer. they may lock you up but u have a better chance of avoiding prosecution if you do not talk to police.

  22. #22
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    She was charged with 222.202. In the citation it states "was a danger to others involved"I ask her what that was about and she said she didnt know. Then I found out to make a 222.202 stick one "must be a danger to themselves or others" Somone mentioned a 42 USC 1983. I dont know if she was deprived of her rights,per say, and also that kind of suit cost 10's of thousands of dollars. I just talked with the PD about open records and when they ask what I was looking for I told them video/audio. She said that NONE of their cars had video/audio. So I have no idea where to turn from here because now it's going to be word against word.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  23. #23
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Request it anyways. There is some kind of record.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Request it anyways. There is some kind of record.
    I was really wishing for audio/video because
    1. It would have the LEO saying "you shouldn't have worried about your rights so much."
    2. The other 2 females stated to me that they knew they were over the limit and that my wife was not, but yet they escaped arrest...I wanna know why, in their (LEO) words.
    3. They state that she "was a danger to others" I would like to see her actions and to see what they based this on.

    What kind of record could I request? Like I said, this is going to end up being 5 LEO's word against 4 other people. 3 that had been drinking and 1 guy (one of the girls husband) that had not been drinking. I really have no idea where to go from here. I feel like I have hit a brick wall.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  25. #25
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    *Sorry, I didn't read over MKE's post, just do what she said in that format, xD*

    Get a lawyer, give them pricks the sign that you and your wife ain't going to bend over and take it with a smile, it'll keep you out of court, and bring a copy of 42 USC 1982 [I think that's the deprivation of rights under colour of law ruling, I'm not sure.] or something like that.

    Give MSPD a phone call, and inform them that you are going to be sending an electronic mail letter to their office regarding the state's sunshine open records act. I had to do the same bit with the KSP a while back to get a lil incident taken off my record.

    Make the email much like:

    Mr. <name of person in charge of PD records>,

    Pursuant to the state open records law section KRS 61.870 to 61.884 and 61.991, I write to request
    access to and an electronic copy of; All records regarding the encounter, detainment, arrest, and anything revolving around <name of your wife> on or about the <day, date, year>. I also request any, and all video, and audio records prior to, during, and after the responding officers arrived on scene, and the arrest[s] made. I request the electronic data to be made available in any, and all formats used by the <MSPD> [example being .DOC, .PDF, .MPEG, .WMV, .CSV, etc.]

    As provided by the open records law, I will expect your response within three (3) business days. If
    you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference
    to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely.

    Please contact me with your decision, and the result of this request at <your email address, AND mailing address, also give your phone number>

    Sign,

    <your name>

    It worked with the KSP for me, just under different circumstances, and without the arrest. However, the USDA/BLM is proving to be a bit more than a c*nt when it comes to FOIA requests, xD.

    Hope this helps you but, hey, if theres anything I can do, be it a donation to legal fees, or anything else, lemme know.

    On a side note, this was at Applebee's, wasn't it?
    Nice format. To bad I dont think it will help me now without the video/audio....but I will save this for future needs. It wasnt applebee's..it was el caminos.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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