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Thread: City ordinances for Waterford TWP

  1. #1
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    City ordinances for Waterford TWP

    Theres two ordinances that worry me since im in waterford and just got the funds to renew my cpl. The first tells about transporting a firearm in a vehicle no ammo in gun or magazine it needs to be seperate the last part says. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case. The first was 11-324. The next one is 11-334 Restrictions on weapon use in Township Parks. It is unlawful for any person other than a duly sworn police or law enforcement official in the course of his or her official duty to discharge,possess and/or use a firearm,bow and arrow, crossbow, slingshot, pellet gun or air rifle, or other weapon within the boundaries of a Township park. This provision shall not prohibit the possession and/or use of any such weaapon within the boundaries of a Township park if such possession or use is within a sanctioned hunt approved by the Township Board under section 11-335. sect 11-335 is for hunting. These two areas are a concern for me ive had dealings with the board and its there way or now way ill will have to attend some board meetings in near future city hall is not connected to courts etc. I do know 2 WPD officers are at doors when you go to the meeting room when WFD took over PFD and PFD went there it was like 6 officers and 3 cars so. I think ill have long discussions with them hopefully we will see. Any input would be greatly appreciated thank you army74.

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    Waterford. Class act there.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Waterford. Class act there.
    Just another Warren MI, just slightly to the north.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    They have always been a joke. A middle class gang.

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    waterford

    since im a resident and have kids that are in school and play athletics and we travel i should make them aware of these unjust ordinances and how they violate my rights as a citizen or a visitor to there city.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I believe state pre-emption trumps local ordinance.

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    Waterford has shown that it doesnt care about the law. They will even twist it to mean what it doesn't to fit their needs.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Waterford has shown that it doesnt care about the law. They will even twist it to mean what it doesn't to fit their needs.
    Does Waterford have any sort of business district with say gun friendly places to eat or such? If so, maybe they need an OC visit, or something.
    Big Gay Al
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    The only places I have had trouble carrying in Waterford have been the schools where it is legal, and the local PD where it is also legal. No private property issues thusfar.

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    oc in waterford

    There is a city park by the police station and city hall. I went to a memorial day parade nothing said by
    WPD only ppl complaining I was carrying. The one board member said we have ordinances to prohibit it but I told him I would see him at a board meeting to discuss it

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Discharge ordinances are enforceable.

    Possession, sale, transportation, ammo ordinances are not.

    IANAL

    Read MCL 123.1101-1103
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    I grew up part of my life in Waterford, still frequent there. I OC'ed there for a minute yesterday. Haven't had any issues.

    There really isn't any business/district or downtown area but if a group wants to get together I'm down.

    Where can I find a copy of the laws? I know one WPD officer I wanna see what he says whenever I get a chance (prolly won't be for awhile).

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Discharge ordinances are enforceable.

    Possession, sale, transportation, ammo ordinances are not.

    IANAL

    Read MCL 123.1101-1103
    Army74 & others,

    We can ask them to change them. They may or may not. The law has no penalty for them to fear, so really unless they are just good folks, which so far does not seem to be the case, they have no motivation to. Sad, but that is the crap hand we have here. Take heart though having such bunk on their books does not help them to wiggle out of color of law or1983 federal actions against them.

    So if they do try to enforce their ordinances that are in violation of preemption, Mi Constitution, and the US Constitution it will cost them dearly down the road. I think if the michigan municipal league was paying attention to violations by problem cities, they may start to refuse them insurance coverage. Maybe we could help MML in this respect? For that matter maybe the same would apply for MCOLES certifications for problem PD's?

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 05-29-2012 at 12:49 AM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    That's a great idea G9, perhaps MOC should consider delegating these tasks to a small group of volunteers. Specialists tend to get things done efficiently.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Take heart though having such bunk on their books does not help them to wiggle out of color of law or1983 federal actions against them.
    Actually, it can. "I didn't know about preemption" is a valid defense to a 1983 case. In other words, if the cop believed the ordinance was enforcible, that can be used as an excuse in a civil case against them.

    The birder would be on you to prove the officer knew (not should have knew...but knew).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    That's a great idea G9, perhaps MOC should consider delegating these tasks to a small group of volunteers. Specialists tend to get things done efficiently.
    Volunteers are always few and tasks so many.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Actually, it can. "I didn't know about preemption" is a valid defense to a 1983 case.
    This frustrates me to no end. The repeal of the motorcycle helmet requirement has been in effect for 46 days and I'd be willing to bet that motorcyclists that choose to go without a helmet aren't getting cited. Meanwhile pre-emption has been in effect for 21 frickin' years and they still claim they didn't know?!

    Big pile of BS if you ask me.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    This frustrates me to no end. The repeal of the motorcycle helmet requirement has been in effect for 46 days and I'd be willing to bet that motorcyclists that choose to go without a helmet aren't getting cited. Meanwhile pre-emption has been in effect for 21 frickin' years and they still claim they didn't know?!

    Big pile of BS if you ask me.

    Bronson
    Its a "choose which law to enforce" kind of world.

    I would bet that most LEO dont care about people not wearing helmets. So therefore, no tickets.

    The best bet for Waterford is to send the "packet" to the city attorney, mayor, and the police chief, certified mail, so there is proof that they received the package. Then go to a city council meeting, where the said people are generally all in attendance. Let them know that their law goes against the state law. Then give them some time to soak it all in. That way, when the harassment happens, one would at least have some sort of chance to prove that the city was made aware, and enforced anyway. Just my 2 cents.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Actually, it can. "I didn't know about preemption" is a valid defense to a 1983 case. In other words, if the cop believed the ordinance was enforcible, that can be used as an excuse in a civil case against them.

    The birder would be on you to prove the officer knew (not should have knew...but knew).

    "I didn't know you couldn't CC without a license, I thought we had the right under the Michigan, and the US Constitutions!"

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Big pile of BS if you ask me.

    I agree, but "prove it".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    The best bet for Waterford is to send the "packet" to the city attorney, mayor, and the police chief, certified mail, so there is proof that they received the package. Then go to a city council meeting, where the said people are generally all in attendance. Let them know that their law goes against the state law. Then give them some time to soak it all in. That way, when the harassment happens, one would at least have some sort of chance to prove that the city was made aware, and enforced anyway. Just my 2 cents.
    Sure, you can show that someone in those offices received the letter. But you can't prove who. Also, just because you send it to the department, doesn't mean every officer in the department read it.

    In a 1983 case the issue is did the officer KNOWINGLY harass someone for something he KNEW to be legal.

    A defense to a 1983 case is "THAT officer didn't know". Yep, it's BS, but it's valid.

    If the government made a regulation that changed how private industry did something, you could bet your ass that a private company would be fined for each day that went by that all of their employees weren't properly trained. But...when the shoe is on the other foot...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    "I didn't know you couldn't CC without a license, I thought we had the right under the Michigan, and the US Constitutions!"
    You know better than that...it's a double standard.

    Ignorantia juris non excusat
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
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    It was a point worth making.

    Yes, I know better than that.

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    Waterford update

    I talked with a board member he is pro gun said he would take care of the ordinances because there outdated and wrong he said if there was anything else to let him know and he would gladly help with it.

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    schools? Maybe? how 'bout da cops/ might speak wit dem.

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