• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

What is the basis for open cary?

Shoobee

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
599
Location
CCCP (Calif)
Many people claim it's the Second Amendment. Ok, that's fine. I firmly support the Second Amendment. But....

I know- "but". And I've already noticed a good number of you have a hard time with "but". That is something you need to get over.

Like the right of property owners. I've noticed a number of the Open carry supporters ALSO support ignoring the preferences and rights of property owners. Open carrying on private property against the wishes of the property owners.

So explain to me how you can justify you right to keep and bear arms when you refuse to honor the rights of property owners. This includes commercial property as well.
Perhaps you miss this part, or perhaps you simply do not care. But how can you have more right to safety on your property when you openly endorse other property owners not having the same rights?

You do realize that in today's technology not only do you, supporters of Open Carry have access to this forum, but so does the Brady Bunch....?
So when you talk about how you don't care about property owner's preferences and wishes and you STILL open carry on private property....
They see that.

And it adds more fuel to their fire.

You do realize that, right?

So explain to me how you can justify any kind of carry, open or concealed, when the property owner, no matter if it's residential or commercial, says not to.

I suppose this all depends on how bad the crime is in your area.

Utah is sort of like a Shangri La where everyone drinks the same koolaide and gets along pretty good. Lowest violent crime rate in the Nation.

NYC, LA, Chicago, Miami, Houston, DC, etc are not like that at all.

Most violent crime is economic or drug related. Any location with a poverty or drug issue is going to have violent crime.

That's the difference. You can only philosophize when your own rump is already safe. That's the benefit of Shangri La.

BTW, California is an example of how everyone can lose their CCW and OC rights. It began with Reagan as governor in 1968, and it has culminated now with the present legislature.
 
Last edited:

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
This should clear up any confusion for the wording of the perfect "No Weapons Allowed' sign?

So....respect the sign on 'private property'.

Good sign but some people can't or claim to not read. IMO checking for signs on a property at the entrance that have any type of restriction is the person entering responsibility. There is an easy option for business that do not allow weapons, don't do business with them. Especially in this day and age anything can be bought online that can be bought in a store. There is no excuse for not respecting rights and wishes of property owners. Non gun people that normally do not care start to care when there is some a-hole with a gun making a fool of himself. As far as Walmart maybe it is just here but there has never been a word said. In fact sometimes the employees will ask about my guns, and very little problems here in our area at all with OC. Maybe some of you need to move~~never mind too many people moving here now.
 

rushcreek2

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
909
Location
Colorado Springs. CO
Respecting fervently the right of private property owners to CONTROL their private premises - whether they be open to the general public or not - I still do not see this issue as being "black or white".

I stand with an earlier poster who stood his ground concerning the safety of himself and his family- if he absolutely had no other option than to patronize a business ( the only pharmacy, or grocery in town) in which case he would conceal . So would I.

Now I am going to address my favorite subject which is - HOW WE PRESENT OUR SELVES WHEN WE OPEN CARRY.

I had a very interesting discussion with my brother-in-law in Kress, Texas the other day.

We were talking about handgun carry, licensing, and open carry (where legal). He is well aware of my personal habits on the subject. He assured me that I could wear my handgun in his house anytime I wanted.

He also commented that he could understand WHY - no one ever took exception to my openly carrying a handgun (where legal) - because OF THE WAY I DRESSED, THE WAY I CUT MY HAIR (G.I. cut), and the way that I carried myself when out in the public square. In other words - he was addressing MY PRESENTATION.

Believe me - I work at it - too ! And I have yet to cause any alarm, or concern.

I stand with LOGAN 5 - in my concerns regarding evidence of an attitude that some have that we simply "have this right be armed - and people better just get used to it."

NO - We had better prepare ourselves to SELL the concept to them- because THEY ARE THE BUYERS - who VOTE ! My brother-in-law is a firm believer in the 2A - but he also has concerns about JUST ANYBODY being allowed to walk around wearing a handgun- because "some people" would alarm him.

I know very well what the 2A says - what the Colorado Constitution says - what the Texas Constitution says. Nevertheless people are simply not going to stand idly by and tolerate a system of laws that permit just "anyone" to carry a handgun legally. Texas will soon (2013 Legislative Session) enact a LICENSED CC/OC law similar to the one just enacted in Oklahoma.

Mark my words - There WILL BE A BACKLASH - if proper respect is not shown for the very real concerns that many people have about the sight of a handgun in public. So we all need to proceed VERY cautiously.

We have a SELLING JOB to do.
 
Last edited:

Dana Vennie

New member
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Turtle Lake WI
Here is my take

Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and p****** and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and pisses and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.

I personally have no problem with boycotting, not badmouthing that is bad for us. I just think it is downright stupid to push against a business or persons wishes on their own property. Most people just don't care but become the backside of a horse in public and they start to give a damn real fast. Not only that the word gets past from one person to another and grows.

On the other hand I believe it is unconstitutional for the state to limit a businesses client base by outlawing cc/oc in a restaurant that serves alcohol. I only eat at no alcohol restaurants, and it really is unfair to the restaurants that serve alcohol when it is not their choice.
 
Last edited:

Dana Vennie

New member
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Turtle Lake WI
There is no law stating that you cannot cc in a tavern or restaurant that serves alcohol. You cannot OC in taverns, you must CC if it is not posted, if I am not mistaken. Also you cannot drink in a tavern while CC.

I really don't think boycotting a business is really going to hurt them unless the majority of their client base boycotts. It really is just a drop in the bucket. When I was younger I worked at a gas station and had people 'boycott' for various reasons. Guess what? Station is still there to this day because that $100/month or so that we lost did not hurt one bit.

But to each their own I guess. If it makes you feel better thinking that losing ones business hurts them then by all means do it. But as for me I just lock my weapon in my vehicle, respect their wishes and see if they have better deals then someone else.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
There is no law stating that you cannot cc in a tavern or restaurant that serves alcohol. You cannot OC in taverns, you must CC if it is not posted, if I am not mistaken. Also you cannot drink in a tavern while CC.

I really don't think boycotting a business is really going to hurt them unless the majority of their client base boycotts. It really is just a drop in the bucket. When I was younger I worked at a gas station and had people 'boycott' for various reasons. Guess what? Station is still there to this day because that $100/month or so that we lost did not hurt one bit.

But to each their own I guess. If it makes you feel better thinking that losing ones business hurts them then by all means do it. But as for me I just lock my weapon in my vehicle, respect their wishes and see if they have better deals then someone else.

It is against the law in NC to take a firearm into a business that serves alcohol. Not all states have this law, we are stuck with it for now.
 

Dana Vennie

New member
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Turtle Lake WI
I apologize. I am in Wisconsin and here we can CC in bars. While I do agree with you I can kind of see their point. By not allowing guns and alcohol together limits any mishaps by stupid people.
 

hjmoosejaw

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
406
Location
N.W. Pa.
Here in Pa., it is LEGAL to go into a bar either OCing or CCing. But if the owner asks you to not have it in there, you have to abide by that.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Many people claim it's the Second Amendment. Ok, that's fine. I firmly support the Second Amendment. But....

I know- "but". And I've already noticed a good number of you have a hard time with "but". That is something you need to get over.

--snip--

So explain to me how you can justify any kind of carry, open or concealed, when the property owner, no matter if it's residential or commercial, says not to.

No "hard time" with the "but". Might ask why do some people have a hard time with my right to life - to live. I alone am responsible for my safety and that of my loved ones. I do not shop where the ability to that is denied me.

If a shopping mall says no guns and a separate entrance restaurant does not, then that is between me and the restaurant. If a family member doesn't like guns and I chose to CC, that is between me and my family - end of that chapter and verse.

I know of virtually no posters who have ever advocated in-your-face refusal to honor private property rules/laws as the exist - to do so would be volunteering for submission to law enforcement. Am I aware of some who have chosen to CC (note operative concealed) when unenforceable signs requiring being invited to leave first are in evidence -yes. Why - silly question IMO, especially when the action is not in and of itself illegal in most places. Is such personal choice a preferred response? No, rather take my business elsewhere.

Aware of who reads these posts? Most acutely. Greatly concerned with the hard core antis? Not really - those like VPC and the Brady Bunch are not going to change their ways and have pretty much become empty shells/empty shirts w/o any significant membership. Point of fact, we are winning by making significant strides across most of the nation - that has not occurred by hiding our light under a basket.

Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and p****** and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.

I'd respond to your hello/greeting, but you didn't make one; nevertheless, welcome to OCDO. Might be a good thing to recognize that few here need to be lectured on 1A and 2A rights, responsibilities and the law.

Boycotting: Adding an unfriendly businesses to a list, trying politely to convert them, and meanwhile spending no money there - many times a most productive means. We have changed the outlook of many restaurants, banks and retail merchants with facts and responsible attitudes.
Boycotting as in a noisy disturbance of a business. Not hardly recommended. Where has this occurred?

Badmouthing(?) - I don't do that. I do report factually and will continue to do so.

Be the bigger person - really? How is that done? By going quietly into the night? I suggest that by conducting myself with dignity that I may still speak out with a responsible attitude, garner grassroots support and become a more effective advocate. No good comes the way of the silent, compliant and/or submissive participant. Obey the law, change the law whenever possible - stand up to be counted. That sir, is being the bigger person.
 

hjmoosejaw

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
406
Location
N.W. Pa.
Originally Posted by Dana Vennie
Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and p****** and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.

Have you seen any of the videos of some that disagreed with Starbuck's decision to allow The legal pratice of Open Carry?
 

gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah
As others have brought up, I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is a difference between a private residence and a public business. The person who opens a public business chooses to do so, and should be aware of the laws in the state they open their business in. If they do not agree with those laws, they have every opportunity to not open a business, relocate to a state with laws they find more palpable, or actively work to try to change those laws. I happen to live in a state where a sign asking you to restrict firearms from a public business doesn't carry any weight of law, just like a sign asking hispanics to stay out wouldn't, however, the same sort of sign on a private residence would carry the weight of law, and private citizens don't have to allow firearms, or hispanics for that matter, on their property if they don't want too. This makes sense to me. There are certainly other rights that a public business willingly give up when deciding to open to the public, it's certainly not unique to firearms. I can't smoke in a private business which is open to the public in my state. I know business owners who disagree with that, and think they should be allowed to let people smoke in their businesses if they choose, but they also choose to have a public business, and as such, understand that they have to abide by the law of the land they are in.

Now, if asked to leave an establishment, I certainly would, and I often CC to avoid the whole issue.

As for the braidy bunch, I'm not going to go out of my way to help them feel better...
 
Last edited:

ed2276

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
366
Location
Las Vegas,NV
In a thread here at OpenCarry.org that is the very subject - http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...res-and-shops-with-quot-No-Weapons-quot-signs
Some people feel they're right to OC or CC trumps the rights of the property owner. Well, let's see here. I think my right to get some poontang prevails over your wife's right to retain her privacy. Would that justify me ignoring her wishes and demands? Yes, very extreme. But accurate.
Just as no man has any right to remove your wife's privacy against her will in such a manner, neither can anyone OC or CC on property that is listed as "no weapons".

And likewise, the idicoy and carelessness of a few numbskulls is going to come back and bite the entire community.

Logan, someone else has kinda pointed out that there is a difference between private property and private property generally open to the public...such as for commercial purposes. I suppose you may make the case that even private business owners can specify with whom they wish to do business. You would probably then justify such business owners putting up such signs as "Blacks Not Welcome!", "Jews Keep Out!", right beside "No Guns Allowed!" signs.
 

CharleyCherokee

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
293
Location
WesternKy
Truth be told I have no problem with that. I think it would be a suicidal business move, but hey if that's how they want to roll then let them. I saw a few businesses a while back with a dress code and hey if they want to limit their customer base on whatever then that is their choice. From a business standpoint I would think you'd want to expand your base as much as possible, but again it is their right. Oh.. there was also a business in the news a long while back that didn't allow children in at all.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Logan, someone else has kinda pointed out that there is a difference between private property and private property generally open to the public...such as for commercial purposes. I suppose you may make the case that even private business owners can specify with whom they wish to do business. You would probably then justify such business owners putting up such signs as "Blacks Not Welcome!", "Jews Keep Out!", right beside "No Guns Allowed!" signs.

Not likely as these would constitute an actionable civil rights violation.


 

gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah

To me, this is kinda the point... The law certainly recognizes that the rights of public businesses are not limitless like the rights of private citizens on private property. By operating a business open to the public you waive certain rights. That's how it's been for quite some time now. This is why I do not agree with the premise of the thread.
 

xxx.jakk.xxx

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
467
So I wonder if the 9th amendment would fall into play in here and, if so, which side it would play for. Would it agree with Property Owners denying the carry of firearms or would it agree with the right to defend oneself?

IX. Rule of construction of Constitution

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

I haven't done any deep research on this, so I only have it at face value, but to me it's saying that no rights of one can deny the rights of another... I could be completely wrong, in which case someone please correct me.
 

XD4ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
25
Location
Maine
He also commented that he could understand WHY - no one ever took exception to my openly carrying a handgun (where legal) - because OF THE WAY I DRESSED, THE WAY I CUT MY HAIR (G.I. cut), and the way that I carried myself when out in the public square. In other words - he was addressing MY PRESENTATION.

Believe me - I work at it - too ! And I have yet to cause any alarm, or concern.

So , I have to dress a certain way , get a certain haircut etc now ? Do I need to look more like an off duty cop ?

I always find humor in people changing who they are in order to please others or put others at ease when they are doing nothing wrong . I guess I am just a lucky blue collar bloke . No one has become "alarmed" or "concerned" when I OC . You would think they would with me looking like a biker instead of a plant manager . I guess it's just how I act/react while in public that snuffs the fire .

Not putting you down for how you achieve your goal . I just can't understand why I need to be a different person in order to make others happy while I exercise my rights. The old fallacy of judging a book by it's cover needs to be buried away .
 

Dana Vennie

New member
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Turtle Lake WI
No "hard time" with the "but". Might ask why do some people have a hard time with my right to life - to live. I alone am responsible for my safety and that of my loved ones. I do not shop where the ability to that is denied me.

If a shopping mall says no guns and a separate entrance restaurant does not, then that is between me and the restaurant. If a family member doesn't like guns and I chose to CC, that is between me and my family - end of that chapter and verse.

I know of virtually no posters who have ever advocated in-your-face refusal to honor private property rules/laws as the exist - to do so would be volunteering for submission to law enforcement. Am I aware of some who have chosen to CC (note operative concealed) when unenforceable signs requiring being invited to leave first are in evidence -yes. Why - silly question IMO, especially when the action is not in and of itself illegal in most places. Is such personal choice a preferred response? No, rather take my business elsewhere.

Aware of who reads these posts? Most acutely. Greatly concerned with the hard core antis? Not really - those like VPC and the Brady Bunch are not going to change their ways and have pretty much become empty shells/empty shirts w/o any significant membership. Point of fact, we are winning by making significant strides across most of the nation - that has not occurred by hiding our light under a basket.



I'd respond to your hello/greeting, but you didn't make one; nevertheless, welcome to OCDO. Might be a good thing to recognize that few here need to be lectured on 1A and 2A rights, responsibilities and the law.

Boycotting: Adding an unfriendly businesses to a list, trying politely to convert them, and meanwhile spending no money there - many times a most productive means. We have changed the outlook of many restaurants, banks and retail merchants with facts and responsible attitudes.
Boycotting as in a noisy disturbance of a business. Not hardly recommended. Where has this occurred?

Badmouthing(?) - I don't do that. I do report factually and will continue to do so.

Be the bigger person - really? How is that done? By going quietly into the night? I suggest that by conducting myself with dignity that I may still speak out with a responsible attitude, garner grassroots support and become a more effective advocate. No good comes the way of the silent, compliant and/or submissive participant. Obey the law, change the law whenever possible - stand up to be counted. That sir, is being the bigger person.


Thank your for the hello sorry I didn't say hi first.

Let me say that with the majority of things said here I agree with whole heartedly. My thing with being the bigger person is why argue with close minded people? You will nearly always lose since we are unable to get down to their level. I am not saying be silent or submissive. Just saying that sometimes you have to respect the wishes of others. Now don't get me wrong, if I am in a public place with no posted signs and someone has a problem with me OCing, well then to put it mildly SCREW 'EM.
As for businesses. Public or private just obey their wishes. If they post signs banning weapons let them. I have read comments in here that some say they will CC in a posted store no matter what. For those people what makes you better then them. These people expect everyone to respect their rights but refuse to respect anti-gunners rights. These people are no better then the anti-gunners in my mind. Being a responsible gun carrier means respecting the wishes of others. I personally OC but when I enter a larger store I will generally CC just to not bring undo attention to myself.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
So , I have to dress a certain way , get a certain haircut etc now ? Do I need to look more like an off duty cop ?

I always find humor in people changing who they are in order to please others or put others at ease when they are doing nothing wrong . I guess I am just a lucky blue collar bloke . No one has become "alarmed" or "concerned" when I OC . You would think they would with me looking like a biker instead of a plant manager . I guess it's just how I act/react while in public that snuffs the fire .

Not putting you down for how you achieve your goal . I just can't understand why I need to be a different person in order to make others happy while I exercise my rights. The old fallacy of judging a book by it's cover needs to be buried away .

I always get a chuckle over the dressing the part thing~~Hell I have a beard almost as long as my almost waist length hair, several tattoos, never wear dockers, just jeans. Been OCing for years and never had a bad word or stopped by a cop...Never!

But then I go about my business, don't strut my stuff, and do nothing to bring alarm. I am also on very good terms with most of the local law enforcement. I say Hi to the employees, bosses, or owners just like I would if I was not armed. I answer questions politely if asked politely about my weapons. That only happens occasionally and most times they want to know what type of gun I have, one time a Yankee wanted to know if I was cop.

I would say attitude plays a much bigger part in problem free OCing than dress.
 
Top