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Thread: What is the basis for open cary?

  1. #26
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Vennie View Post
    There is no law stating that you cannot cc in a tavern or restaurant that serves alcohol. You cannot OC in taverns, you must CC if it is not posted, if I am not mistaken. Also you cannot drink in a tavern while CC.

    I really don't think boycotting a business is really going to hurt them unless the majority of their client base boycotts. It really is just a drop in the bucket. When I was younger I worked at a gas station and had people 'boycott' for various reasons. Guess what? Station is still there to this day because that $100/month or so that we lost did not hurt one bit.

    But to each their own I guess. If it makes you feel better thinking that losing ones business hurts them then by all means do it. But as for me I just lock my weapon in my vehicle, respect their wishes and see if they have better deals then someone else.
    It is against the law in NC to take a firearm into a business that serves alcohol. Not all states have this law, we are stuck with it for now.

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    I apologize. I am in Wisconsin and here we can CC in bars. While I do agree with you I can kind of see their point. By not allowing guns and alcohol together limits any mishaps by stupid people.

  3. #28
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    Here in Pa., it is LEGAL to go into a bar either OCing or CCing. But if the owner asks you to not have it in there, you have to abide by that.
    watch your top knot !

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    Many people claim it's the Second Amendment. Ok, that's fine. I firmly support the Second Amendment. But....

    I know- "but". And I've already noticed a good number of you have a hard time with "but". That is something you need to get over.

    --snip--

    So explain to me how you can justify any kind of carry, open or concealed, when the property owner, no matter if it's residential or commercial, says not to.
    No "hard time" with the "but". Might ask why do some people have a hard time with my right to life - to live. I alone am responsible for my safety and that of my loved ones. I do not shop where the ability to that is denied me.

    If a shopping mall says no guns and a separate entrance restaurant does not, then that is between me and the restaurant. If a family member doesn't like guns and I chose to CC, that is between me and my family - end of that chapter and verse.

    I know of virtually no posters who have ever advocated in-your-face refusal to honor private property rules/laws as the exist - to do so would be volunteering for submission to law enforcement. Am I aware of some who have chosen to CC (note operative concealed) when unenforceable signs requiring being invited to leave first are in evidence -yes. Why - silly question IMO, especially when the action is not in and of itself illegal in most places. Is such personal choice a preferred response? No, rather take my business elsewhere.

    Aware of who reads these posts? Most acutely. Greatly concerned with the hard core antis? Not really - those like VPC and the Brady Bunch are not going to change their ways and have pretty much become empty shells/empty shirts w/o any significant membership. Point of fact, we are winning by making significant strides across most of the nation - that has not occurred by hiding our light under a basket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Vennie View Post
    Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and p****** and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.
    I'd respond to your hello/greeting, but you didn't make one; nevertheless, welcome to OCDO. Might be a good thing to recognize that few here need to be lectured on 1A and 2A rights, responsibilities and the law.

    Boycotting: Adding an unfriendly businesses to a list, trying politely to convert them, and meanwhile spending no money there - many times a most productive means. We have changed the outlook of many restaurants, banks and retail merchants with facts and responsible attitudes.
    Boycotting as in a noisy disturbance of a business. Not hardly recommended. Where has this occurred?

    Badmouthing(?) - I don't do that. I do report factually and will continue to do so.

    Be the bigger person - really? How is that done? By going quietly into the night? I suggest that by conducting myself with dignity that I may still speak out with a responsible attitude, garner grassroots support and become a more effective advocate. No good comes the way of the silent, compliant and/or submissive participant. Obey the law, change the law whenever possible - stand up to be counted. That sir, is being the bigger person.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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  5. #30
    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dana Vennie
    Everyone has their rights. Everyone seems to want to other side to honor their rights and p****** and moans when they don't. Guess what if someone doesn't want guns in their business it is their right not to allow guns. And yes that right trumps our right for self defense. Go into a posted building, it may not happen the first time but after a warning you may be looking at some trouble. Respect peoples wishes plain and simple. And what is the deal with boycotting and badmouthing places that don't allow guns? I don't understand it. Be the bigger person.

    Have you seen any of the videos of some that disagreed with Starbuck's decision to allow The legal pratice of Open Carry?
    watch your top knot !

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    As others have brought up, I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is a difference between a private residence and a public business. The person who opens a public business chooses to do so, and should be aware of the laws in the state they open their business in. If they do not agree with those laws, they have every opportunity to not open a business, relocate to a state with laws they find more palpable, or actively work to try to change those laws. I happen to live in a state where a sign asking you to restrict firearms from a public business doesn't carry any weight of law, just like a sign asking hispanics to stay out wouldn't, however, the same sort of sign on a private residence would carry the weight of law, and private citizens don't have to allow firearms, or hispanics for that matter, on their property if they don't want too. This makes sense to me. There are certainly other rights that a public business willingly give up when deciding to open to the public, it's certainly not unique to firearms. I can't smoke in a private business which is open to the public in my state. I know business owners who disagree with that, and think they should be allowed to let people smoke in their businesses if they choose, but they also choose to have a public business, and as such, understand that they have to abide by the law of the land they are in.

    Now, if asked to leave an establishment, I certainly would, and I often CC to avoid the whole issue.

    As for the braidy bunch, I'm not going to go out of my way to help them feel better...
    Last edited by gobbly; 05-29-2012 at 10:45 PM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    In a thread here at OpenCarry.org that is the very subject - http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-quot-signs
    Some people feel they're right to OC or CC trumps the rights of the property owner. Well, let's see here. I think my right to get some poontang prevails over your wife's right to retain her privacy. Would that justify me ignoring her wishes and demands? Yes, very extreme. But accurate.
    Just as no man has any right to remove your wife's privacy against her will in such a manner, neither can anyone OC or CC on property that is listed as "no weapons".

    And likewise, the idicoy and carelessness of a few numbskulls is going to come back and bite the entire community.
    Logan, someone else has kinda pointed out that there is a difference between private property and private property generally open to the public...such as for commercial purposes. I suppose you may make the case that even private business owners can specify with whom they wish to do business. You would probably then justify such business owners putting up such signs as "Blacks Not Welcome!", "Jews Keep Out!", right beside "No Guns Allowed!" signs.

  8. #33
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    Truth be told I have no problem with that. I think it would be a suicidal business move, but hey if that's how they want to roll then let them. I saw a few businesses a while back with a dress code and hey if they want to limit their customer base on whatever then that is their choice. From a business standpoint I would think you'd want to expand your base as much as possible, but again it is their right. Oh.. there was also a business in the news a long while back that didn't allow children in at all.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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  9. #34
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276 View Post
    Logan, someone else has kinda pointed out that there is a difference between private property and private property generally open to the public...such as for commercial purposes. I suppose you may make the case that even private business owners can specify with whom they wish to do business. You would probably then justify such business owners putting up such signs as "Blacks Not Welcome!", "Jews Keep Out!", right beside "No Guns Allowed!" signs.
    Not likely as these would constitute an actionable civil rights violation.


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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To me, this is kinda the point... The law certainly recognizes that the rights of public businesses are not limitless like the rights of private citizens on private property. By operating a business open to the public you waive certain rights. That's how it's been for quite some time now. This is why I do not agree with the premise of the thread.

  11. #36
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    So I wonder if the 9th amendment would fall into play in here and, if so, which side it would play for. Would it agree with Property Owners denying the carry of firearms or would it agree with the right to defend oneself?

    IX. Rule of construction of Constitution

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    I haven't done any deep research on this, so I only have it at face value, but to me it's saying that no rights of one can deny the rights of another... I could be completely wrong, in which case someone please correct me.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

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  12. #37
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    He also commented that he could understand WHY - no one ever took exception to my openly carrying a handgun (where legal) - because OF THE WAY I DRESSED, THE WAY I CUT MY HAIR (G.I. cut), and the way that I carried myself when out in the public square. In other words - he was addressing MY PRESENTATION.

    Believe me - I work at it - too ! And I have yet to cause any alarm, or concern.
    So , I have to dress a certain way , get a certain haircut etc now ? Do I need to look more like an off duty cop ?

    I always find humor in people changing who they are in order to please others or put others at ease when they are doing nothing wrong . I guess I am just a lucky blue collar bloke . No one has become "alarmed" or "concerned" when I OC . You would think they would with me looking like a biker instead of a plant manager . I guess it's just how I act/react while in public that snuffs the fire .

    Not putting you down for how you achieve your goal . I just can't understand why I need to be a different person in order to make others happy while I exercise my rights. The old fallacy of judging a book by it's cover needs to be buried away .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No "hard time" with the "but". Might ask why do some people have a hard time with my right to life - to live. I alone am responsible for my safety and that of my loved ones. I do not shop where the ability to that is denied me.

    If a shopping mall says no guns and a separate entrance restaurant does not, then that is between me and the restaurant. If a family member doesn't like guns and I chose to CC, that is between me and my family - end of that chapter and verse.

    I know of virtually no posters who have ever advocated in-your-face refusal to honor private property rules/laws as the exist - to do so would be volunteering for submission to law enforcement. Am I aware of some who have chosen to CC (note operative concealed) when unenforceable signs requiring being invited to leave first are in evidence -yes. Why - silly question IMO, especially when the action is not in and of itself illegal in most places. Is such personal choice a preferred response? No, rather take my business elsewhere.

    Aware of who reads these posts? Most acutely. Greatly concerned with the hard core antis? Not really - those like VPC and the Brady Bunch are not going to change their ways and have pretty much become empty shells/empty shirts w/o any significant membership. Point of fact, we are winning by making significant strides across most of the nation - that has not occurred by hiding our light under a basket.



    I'd respond to your hello/greeting, but you didn't make one; nevertheless, welcome to OCDO. Might be a good thing to recognize that few here need to be lectured on 1A and 2A rights, responsibilities and the law.

    Boycotting: Adding an unfriendly businesses to a list, trying politely to convert them, and meanwhile spending no money there - many times a most productive means. We have changed the outlook of many restaurants, banks and retail merchants with facts and responsible attitudes.
    Boycotting as in a noisy disturbance of a business. Not hardly recommended. Where has this occurred?

    Badmouthing(?) - I don't do that. I do report factually and will continue to do so.

    Be the bigger person - really? How is that done? By going quietly into the night? I suggest that by conducting myself with dignity that I may still speak out with a responsible attitude, garner grassroots support and become a more effective advocate. No good comes the way of the silent, compliant and/or submissive participant. Obey the law, change the law whenever possible - stand up to be counted. That sir, is being the bigger person.

    Thank your for the hello sorry I didn't say hi first.

    Let me say that with the majority of things said here I agree with whole heartedly. My thing with being the bigger person is why argue with close minded people? You will nearly always lose since we are unable to get down to their level. I am not saying be silent or submissive. Just saying that sometimes you have to respect the wishes of others. Now don't get me wrong, if I am in a public place with no posted signs and someone has a problem with me OCing, well then to put it mildly SCREW 'EM.
    As for businesses. Public or private just obey their wishes. If they post signs banning weapons let them. I have read comments in here that some say they will CC in a posted store no matter what. For those people what makes you better then them. These people expect everyone to respect their rights but refuse to respect anti-gunners rights. These people are no better then the anti-gunners in my mind. Being a responsible gun carrier means respecting the wishes of others. I personally OC but when I enter a larger store I will generally CC just to not bring undo attention to myself.

  14. #39
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD4ME View Post
    So , I have to dress a certain way , get a certain haircut etc now ? Do I need to look more like an off duty cop ?

    I always find humor in people changing who they are in order to please others or put others at ease when they are doing nothing wrong . I guess I am just a lucky blue collar bloke . No one has become "alarmed" or "concerned" when I OC . You would think they would with me looking like a biker instead of a plant manager . I guess it's just how I act/react while in public that snuffs the fire .

    Not putting you down for how you achieve your goal . I just can't understand why I need to be a different person in order to make others happy while I exercise my rights. The old fallacy of judging a book by it's cover needs to be buried away .
    I always get a chuckle over the dressing the part thing~~Hell I have a beard almost as long as my almost waist length hair, several tattoos, never wear dockers, just jeans. Been OCing for years and never had a bad word or stopped by a cop...Never!

    But then I go about my business, don't strut my stuff, and do nothing to bring alarm. I am also on very good terms with most of the local law enforcement. I say Hi to the employees, bosses, or owners just like I would if I was not armed. I answer questions politely if asked politely about my weapons. That only happens occasionally and most times they want to know what type of gun I have, one time a Yankee wanted to know if I was cop.

    I would say attitude plays a much bigger part in problem free OCing than dress.

  15. #40
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Every time I mention HOW I PERSONALLY CHOOSE to present myself when openly carrying -

    some folks interpret my comments as suggesting an obligatory pattern for universal conformity.

    I wear what I wear (eye glasses, golf shirts, dockers, and loafers) because that is MY CHOICE - not a prescription for others. My hair is buzzed because I have a BALD SPOT on top of my head - again = MY CHOSEN hair style.

    The point I wished to convey by citing my PERSONAL example was that whatever "BRAND" of OC one CHOOSES to present for public consumption - it would be WISE strategy to consider "market appeal" in selecting a PACKAGE design. Mine works well FOR ME.

    If people are inclined to assume that I am some sort of LE - due to their software "programming" - so be it. I want to be perceived positively by law-abiding folks - and uncomfortably by the criminally inclined. I have yet to be confronted , and asked to leave any business.

    Is that not at least ONE of the primary aims of those of us who choose to OC ?
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 05-30-2012 at 10:51 AM.

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    First time poster

    First time poster, been lurking for a while now.

    You are so correct attitude is everything. Being polite is also key. I am naturally a very polite person, please and thank you every chance I get. I have noticed that when I OC people generally get a nervous look on their face at first until they talk to me. I make eye contact when I talk to them, am very polite and answer any questions if they have any. Generally after a few seconds that nervous look is gone. My sister was one of those anti-gunners. Nothing against hunting just didn't like the idea of everyday citizens carrying weapons. She has recently changed her tune now that she has seen me carry. She understands that good people carry guns properly.

    But I will respect the wishes of store owners. If I walk into a store and the manager/owner asks me to leave my gun in my car I will do that without complaint. I do believe that being a respectable, responsible gun carrier will get you much farther than those who try to push their agenda on others. That goes the same for the anti-gunners. If I am in a public non-posted place and my gun makes someone nervous they can simply walk away. Most I believe will. It is just those few who feel the need to start trouble that give the rest of them a bad name.

  17. #42
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    Every time I mention HOW I PERSONALLY CHOOSE to present myself when openly carrying -

    some folks interpret my comments as suggesting an obligatory pattern for universal conformity.

    I wear what I wear (eye glasses, golf shirts, dockers, and loafers) because that is MY CHOICE - not a prescription for others. My hair is buzzed because I have a BALD SPOT on top of my head - again = MY CHOSEN hair style.

    The point I wished to convey by citing my PERSONAL example was that whatever "BRAND" of OC one CHOOSES to present for public consumption - it would be WISE strategy to consider "market appeal" in selecting a PACKAGE design. Mine works well FOR ME.

    If people are inclined to assume that I am some sort of LE - due to their software "programming" - so be it. I want to be perceived positively by law-abiding folks - and uncomfortably by the criminally inclined. I have yet to be confronted , and asked to leave any business.

    Is that not at least ONE of the primary aims of those of us who choose to OC ?
    Of course it is your choice, but you do tie your dress to marketing OCing to the public. If you want to do that I don't think anybody has a problem with it, some just don't feel the need to do that. I do not OC to market or convince or any other reason than self defense, my constitutional right. I don't go out of my way to be a jerk either whether armed or not. I act and dress the same way whether armed or not.

  18. #43
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    it would be WISE strategy to consider "market appeal" in selecting a PACKAGE design.
    The best 'package" is individual honesty to ones self . Changing appearance so that others are comfortable is not honest to ones self . Regardless of looks , most people can tell a good person from a bad person simply by observing their actions and listening to what they say .

    I have never been hassled , asked to leave, or made people "scared" by simply carrying . You would think I would have a problem since my "package" consists of worn jeans , T shirt , sleeves (thats full length arm tattoos), generally scruffy facial hair , etc etc . . But it's not how I dress that eases people , it's my attitude and demeanor .

    I stand with LOGAN 5 - in my concerns regarding evidence of an attitude that some have that we simply "have this right be armed - and people better just get used to it."

    NO - We had better prepare ourselves to SELL the concept to them- because THEY ARE THE BUYERS - who VOTE ! My brother-in-law is a firm believer in the 2A - but he also has concerns about JUST ANYBODY being allowed to walk around wearing a handgun- because "some people" would alarm him.
    Mark my words - There WILL BE A BACKLASH - if proper respect is not shown for the very real concerns that many people have about the sight of a handgun in public. So we all need to proceed VERY cautiously.

    We have a SELLING JOB to do.
    It is not the persons fault that is exercising a right if someone gets "alarmed" because of looks . I am not sure I could trust someone that bases their opinion on a persons dress and appearance rather than their actions and demeanor. Thats rather shallow and shows poor judgement .

    Anyway , continue "packaging" yourself if thats what you want to do . It's supposedly a free country . I on the other hand will be myself and continue to inform through actions and deeds .

  19. #44
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    So, what we can take from this thread is the same thing as every other thread where this discussion happens:

    To each, their own.

    There are just too many different laws x too many different people x too many different locations x too many different situations to have a one size fits all solution.

    The simplest answer I've ever heard was the following two words:

    Be safe!
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    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  20. #45
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD4ME View Post
    --snip--
    it's not how I dress that eases people , it's my attitude and demeanor............inform through actions and deeds .
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    --snip--

    There are just too many different laws x too many different people x too many different locations x too many different situations to have a one size fits all solution.
    Blue collar, white, collar, young or senior - act responsibly, be polite - ACTIONS do speak louder than words. Demeanor sends a message. These things can be constants, no matter who you are. Use them in a positive manner and reap the benefits.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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  21. #46
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Vennie View Post
    I apologize. I am in Wisconsin and here we can CC in bars. While I do agree with you I can kind of see their point. By not allowing guns and alcohol together limits any mishaps by stupid people.
    So you would no doubt support laws that make it illegal to drive to and from a bar.

    This is FAR MORE dangerous, and PROVEN so, than mere possession of a firearm while drinking.
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  22. #47
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Ohio just passed restaurant carry last year. You can be IN a place that serves alcohol, but you can't drink (any!)

    As is typical, there are no rivers of blood pouring forth from taverns or restaurants where guns and alcohol are being mixed.

    While I'm personally not against someone having a couple drinks at dinner while carrying, being armed while drunk is a definite concern.

    I would hope that the level of responsibility of those that carry (at least those that I have met so far) prevents those people from inbibing to excess.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    So you would no doubt support laws that make it illegal to drive to and from a bar.

    This is FAR MORE dangerous, and PROVEN so, than mere possession of a firearm while drinking.
    I think the drinking and driving laws are way too lenient. As far as I am concerned if you drive drunk and kill someone you should get life in prison without parole. The way I see it getting in an accident while drunk driving is the same as walking up to someone and shooting them in the head. I have no time for that crap.

  24. #49
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Vennie View Post
    I think the drinking and driving laws are way too lenient. As far as I am concerned if you drive drunk and kill someone you should get life in prison without parole. The way I see it getting in an accident while drunk driving is the same as walking up to someone and shooting them in the head. I have no time for that crap.
    I agree with you. But you didn't address this: would you support laws that make it illegal to drive to and from a bar, even when not impaired under the law?
    Last edited by MAC702; 05-31-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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    RE: What is the basis for open cary?

    That really is a moot point. It doesn't matter what the basis is for open carry. If I own property and I don't want people on it, I don't care if they are carrying or not they are going to leave my property. I live in Texas so I can't open carry except on my private property (which I do). There are always people who think they don't have to follow rules but in my experience they are few and far between but for those few I carry concealed which is my right. Don't let those few macho gun slinger types ruin your opinion of people just exercising their 2nd Ammendment right.

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