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Thread: Conceal Carry Question

  1. #1
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Conceal Carry Question

    Going to VA Beach. I have a VA permit. My two friends do not. If I keep my gun in my backpack.....can one of my friends be in possession of my backpack while I am in the water? Else how far am I allowed from my backpack before I am no longer considered to be in possession of it and thus the gun? Or is the only option at that point for my friend to openly carry it while I am away from them?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Machine's Avatar
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    As far as I have seen or read, there are not particular laws/ords that suggests how far away makes you "too far", on the other had "on your person" is where most of the laws cite the weapon as being located. In your bag and not on your shoulder/back is most def not "on your person".

    ALL THAT BEING SAID,

    I CC to the beach all the time and will leave it in my bag while in the water. The bag is always with someone and never left unattended. I suppose we run the risk of the bag being stolen and the weapon along with it.

    Maybe my practice is poor, but I see no problem with it. We are adults, we make our own decisions.




    Joe
    Semper Fi
    Last edited by Machine; 05-28-2012 at 09:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Can my friends be charged with illegally concealing a firearm? Not sure if its okay because it is MY bag? Or do you not need a permit to conceal in a bookbag....because it is not "on your person"...?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    The term is "on or about your person". A good example of this is a gun on the passenger seat of your car in full view. In that case, it is perfectly legal. Now let's say you're sitting at a light looking at a front page article in a newspaper and when the light changes, you toss the paper onto the passenger seat thereby covering the gun. Now it is concealed and it is not on your person but is about your person so a permit would be required.

    It your friend holds your backpack while you go into the water and there is a gun in that pack, he must have a CHP, otherwise we could be arrested for carrying a concealed handgun without a permit. Doesn't matter whether or not it is his. The only thing that might work in his favor is if he didn't know the gun was in the pack (a mere guess on my part).

    So if you are planning to hit the beach and go into the ocean, best to leave your firearm in your motel/hotel or some other safe place.

    INAL, so these are only my observations on the information given.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    That's one of those questions only a Judge will be able to decide and I suppose it's OC since a non-Chipper is watching the bag.

    You aren't going to get a real answer. On the other hand, use some common sense. Not everything has a set of directions. If you're talking about the friend walking around with the bag, he would be at risk. If you're saying you all set your stuff down, you go in the water while one or all watch the things, you'll be fine.

    When was the last time you had a cop come by on the beach and say "excuse me sir, may I go through everyone's backpacks just because".

    Put your wallet in the pack to show it's yours, go swimming and stop worrying about silly S^it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's one of those questions only a Judge will be able to decide and I suppose it's OC since a non-Chipper is watching the bag.

    You aren't going to get a real answer. On the other hand, use some common sense. Not everything has a set of directions. If you're talking about the friend walking around with the bag, he would be at risk. If you're saying you all set your stuff down, you go in the water while one or all watch the things, you'll be fine.

    When was the last time you had a cop come by on the beach and say "excuse me sir, may I go through everyone's backpacks just because".

    Put your wallet in the pack to show it's yours, go swimming and stop worrying about silly S^it!
    Good response, except for the last sentence. Peter, you are very set in your ways on many of these subjects and I respect you for that, but sometimes I feel you forget that not everyone is as experienced or laid back on some matters as you are. You have given ample advise on this forum that many, including myself, have absorbed to do better in the fight for our 2a rights. I, personally, strive to follow the law as it is written when it comes to this stuff and I want to know everything about the law right up to the border where something becomes illegal.

    I believe this question is valid even though on the OC board because why just slap someone away if something isnt only "OC"? CC pertains to most of the same laws and regs. that we have to follow with OC.

    But I digress. firearm responsibility does not strike me as silly. I take it very seriously and do not hesitate to give someone a pop on the back of the head when they do something wrong, as I expect someone to do the same to me. I mean, how else can we learn?


    As for the bag... I would feel that leaving my FIREARM (not "weapon") in a bag on a populated beach is a bad idea...just like leaving it in the car. However, If you have it under constant supervision, I think it would be the same as leaving it in your car, as far as the law goes (IANAL). Since the firearm is in your bag, not on your friend's back, sitting on the beach... it is still in your property, thus should not be considered in your friend's possession. Like Peter said, put your wallet in the bag to prove ownership,
    Now, if your buddy were carrying it down the boardwalk while you took a dip, then he would be in possession of a concealed firearm and would need to be a "chipper".

    again IANAL.....

  7. #7
    Regular Member Machine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    As for the bag... I would feel that leaving my FIREARM (not "weapon") iL.....
    I think this might have been directed at me, I always call my FIREARM or a knife I might be carrying a 'weapon'. It's a tool to complete a job, and therefore I don't simply refer to that particular tool by a particular name...

    But that's just me.






    Semper Fi
    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machine View Post
    I think this might have been directed at me, I always call my FIREARM or a knife I might be carrying a 'weapon'. It's a tool to complete a job, and therefore I don't simply refer to that particular tool by a particular name...

    But that's just me.






    Semper Fi
    Joe
    Understood, Joe. "Weapon" is just a word with a negative connotation implied and enforced by the anti's. I have been trained by the wise on this site, that referring to a gun as a "weapon" implies negative intent and negative associative properties. Getting into the habit of calling your gun a "sidearm" or "firearm" tends to give the little old lady, young kid or curious average joe a more positive (or at least neutral) feeling about your message as to why you are carrying as you educate them.

    I was not bashing you by any means. Its just semantics, but something to consider.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Future info, get one of these. A friend told me about this and I plan on getting it soon. Put a small revolver or semi auto along with your ID and keys and carry it while in the water. They come in other colors such as blue and you can't see inside.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 05-28-2012 at 02:21 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    So it's true that the HiGloSigTaurS&WRugKimBarKel handblaster you picked up actually does double duty as an anchor!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So it's true that the HiGloSigTaurS&WRugKimBarKel handblaster you picked up actually does double duty as an anchor!

    stay safe.
    Tie it around your wrist.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post


    Future info, get one of these.
    Did your friend give you a source besides the web site watermarked onto the picture? Cause they http://www.sz-wholesale.com/p/Other-...ox-173035.html have a 500-unit minimum order for even their biggest box.*

    Not that I'm looking for something to use as an anchor cover.

    stay safe.

    * Please do not let this idea get loose or you-know-who will be jumping all over it.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Djeeper, I didn't slap it down as OC or CC. Actually I said it qualified as OC...even though it's both.

    The silly **** comment is because Richard is a long time member, intelligent and knows there isn't any answer. That's a question that would have to be adjudicated.

    The simple fact is we have to make educated decisions in some things. My wife has a CHP...am I CC'ing if I stay at the cart watching her purse while she gets a can of soup. Maybe. Would I be convicted...doubtful....What are the chances of being charged.....about the same as being bitten on the nose by a Cobra while getting a fishing license at Greentops.

    Why worry about the what if's. If it concerns him, don't carry. Some of us don't at times. If he's convinced the odds are in his favor, do it. There are no guarantees in life.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richarcm View Post
    CONCEAL CARRY QUESTION
    on OPEN CARRY .org?
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  15. #15
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Why leave your firearm in a backpack? Navy Seals go swiming with theirs!



    So either pick up a mostly plastic gun, phosphate coated gun, or a stainless one. :-)

    The d@mn belt and holster are the biggest problem. Most mens bathing suits don't have belt loops! (unless you use homemade cutoff jeans) ;-)

    You also never know when a shark attack will happen so be prepared.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    Good response, except for the last sentence. Peter, you are very set in your ways on many of these subjects and I respect you for that, but sometimes I feel you forget that not everyone is as experienced or laid back on some matters as you are. You have given ample advise on this forum that many, including myself, have absorbed to do better in the fight for our 2a rights. I, personally, strive to follow the law as it is written when it comes to this stuff and I want to know everything about the law right up to the border where something becomes illegal.

    I believe this question is valid even though on the OC board because why just slap someone away if something isnt only "OC"? CC pertains to most of the same laws and regs. that we have to follow with OC.

    But I digress. firearm responsibility does not strike me as silly. I take it very seriously and do not hesitate to give someone a pop on the back of the head when they do something wrong, as I expect someone to do the same to me. I mean, how else can we learn?


    As for the bag... I would feel that leaving my FIREARM (not "weapon") in a bag on a populated beach is a bad idea...just like leaving it in the car. However, If you have it under constant supervision, I think it would be the same as leaving it in your car, as far as the law goes (IANAL). Since the firearm is in your bag, not on your friend's back, sitting on the beach... it is still in your property, thus should not be considered in your friend's possession. Like Peter said, put your wallet in the bag to prove ownership,
    Now, if your buddy were carrying it down the boardwalk while you took a dip, then he would be in possession of a concealed firearm and would need to be a "chipper".

    again IANAL.....
    Would you leave the gun in a back pack with your friend on the beach and take a walk down the board walk w/o him? How far away does your arm reach - 10 ft away, 20 yds?

    Peter's advice on this will work 99.9% of the time - it is the don't ask, don't tell philosophy. Some would say no harm done.

    Consider that in "constructive possession" - 3 elements are required: defendant's proximity to the firearm, aware of the presence and character of the firearm & within his dominion and control.
    http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html

    So IMHO if your friend did not know the gun was there, he probably/technically would not draw the short straw. However, if he is watching/guarding a bag that he knows has a gun in it beside him on a blanket while you are swimming a distance away = constructive possession.



    Might be simpler to get one of those plastic guns that are supposed work after being carried in salt water and packed with the sand.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richarcm View Post
    Going to VA Beach. I have a VA permit. My two friends do not. If I keep my gun in my backpack.....can one of my friends be in possession of my backpack while I am in the water? Else how far am I allowed from my backpack before I am no longer considered to be in possession of it and thus the gun? Or is the only option at that point for my friend to openly carry it while I am away from them?
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    on OPEN CARRY .org?
    The thread title could be amended to OC vs CC legal question, but don't see that is really necessary. The administration routinely allows questions regarding CHP training, discussions pertaining to permits and to 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons.

    The question of acceptability is therefore well documented. Reasonable?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  18. #18
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Djeeper, I didn't slap it down as OC or CC. Actually I said it qualified as OC...even though it's both.

    The silly **** comment is because Richard is a long time member, intelligent and knows there isn't any answer. That's a question that would have to be adjudicated.

    The simple fact is we have to make educated decisions in some things. My wife has a CHP...am I CC'ing if I stay at the cart watching her purse while she gets a can of soup. Maybe. Would I be convicted...doubtful....What are the chances of being charged.....about the same as being bitten on the nose by a Cobra while getting a fishing license at Greentops.

    Why worry about the what if's. If it concerns him, don't carry. Some of us don't at times. If he's convinced the odds are in his favor, do it. There are no guarantees in life.
    Very good point, peter. I would venture this for you example. She left her purse in the card while strolling the isle looking for something. She did not give it to you specifically. Now if she asked you to hold it and you agreed then that might be something different.

    I don't know. Suppose there are two men on a bench waiting for a bus and one has a briefcase with a gun in it (they know one another). The owner of the briefcase steps away to make a phone call and the police, who have been watching this fellow, happen by. I'm going to bet that if the seated man was holding the briefcase, he might have a problem whereas if the case is laying on the bench, he is probably okay.

    Once again, I don't know but it is interesting and worth discussion.... even on an OC forum. One of the best things about our state is the protection someone has if they are CC'ing and they happen to print or lean over and the gun shows. It makes not difference because open carry is the "normal" (default, standard) mode of carry here whereas concealing a handgun is the abnormal, or exceptional, mode. One of the primary services this site affords people is knowledge so that those who choose to carry can be made aware of laws, policies, and behavior of law enforcement and the general public in the various parts of the state.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Very good point, peter. I would venture this for you example. She left her purse in the card while strolling the isle looking for something. She did not give it to you specifically. Now if she asked you to hold it and you agreed then that might be something different.

    I don't know. Suppose there are two men on a bench waiting for a bus and one has a briefcase with a gun in it (they know one another). The owner of the briefcase steps away to make a phone call and the police, who have been watching this fellow, happen by. I'm going to bet that if the seated man was holding the briefcase, he might have a problem whereas if the case is laying on the bench, he is probably okay.

    Once again, I don't know but it is interesting and worth discussion.... even on an OC forum. One of the best things about our state is the protection someone has if they are CC'ing and they happen to print or lean over and the gun shows. It makes not difference because open carry is the "normal" (default, standard) mode of carry here whereas concealing a handgun is the abnormal, or exceptional, mode. One of the primary services this site affords people is knowledge so that those who choose to carry can be made aware of laws, policies, and behavior of law enforcement and the general public in the various parts of the state.
    I agree that it does need some discussion since it does touch on the perceived rights of Open Carriers (and non carrying 2A supporters) when around Chippers.
    I'm busy today and back in the burbs to take care of some business but first I want to post a definition.

    A disclaimer first though. The board rules say no discussion of illegal activities. This will touch on possible illegal activities. If the Admins make the thread go away, it will be a disservice to all gun owners.

    OK here's the definition and it is a touches OC all the time.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................
    In a legal context, a chilling effect is the term used to describe the inhibition or discouragement of the legitimate exercise of a constitutional right by the threat of legal sanction.[1] The right that is most often described as being suppressed by a chilling effect is the right to free speech. A chilling effect may be caused by legal actions such as the passing of a law, the decision of a court, or the threat of a lawsuit; any legal action that would cause people to hesitate to exercise a legitimate right (freedom of speech or otherwise) for fear of legal repercussions. When that fear is brought about by the threat of a libel lawsuit, it is called libel chill.[2] A lawsuit initiated specifically for the purpose of creating a chilling effect may be called a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, or "SLAPP" suit.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................................



  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    --snip--
    A disclaimer first though. The board rules say no discussion of illegal activities. This will touch on possible illegal activities. If the Admins make the thread go away, it will be a disservice to all gun owners.
    Not that there can be no discussion of illegal conditions, Peter. Rather that "Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here."

    We discuss illegal acts of others and the impact or potential fall out of these things, preferable as they effect OC. Restricting an otherwise legal activity (1st Amend. rights) could well have a chilling effect on the RKBA. I think pursuing this (within narrow confines) is a capital idea.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not that there can be no discussion of illegal conditions, Peter. Rather that "Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here."

    We discuss illegal acts of others and the impact or potential fall out of these things, preferable as they effect OC. Restricting an otherwise legal activity (1st Amend. rights) could well have a chilling effect on the RKBA. I think pursuing this (within narrow confines) is a capital idea.
    I understand Grape! I just wanted to throw that in early because I can see the direction this will go and many comments will be legitimate.

    The very nature of the OP's question is a good example. It's a real concern but there is very little case law that will cover it and just trying to sweeten it with opinions from a forum amounts to whistling in the dark through a graveyard.

    Just like driving through a GFZ, the real question that has to be answered is not if it's illegal, only a test case will decide that....the question should be...what are the chances of being charged with it.

    Obviously, much of LE would like us to think anything other than CHP permitted carry/possession, is illegal. Thus the Chilling Effect.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-29-2012 at 09:20 AM.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The thread title could be amended to OC vs CC legal question, but don't see that is really necessary. The administration routinely allows questions regarding CHP training, discussions pertaining to permits and to 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons.

    The question of acceptability is therefore well documented. Reasonable?
    Richard is a friend of mine and has been for years.. I was just bustin his chops.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I understand Grape! I just wanted to throw that in early because I can see the direction this will go and many comments will be legitimate.

    The very nature of the OP's question is a good example. It's a real concern but there is very little case law that will cover it and just trying to sweeten it with opinions from a forum amounts to whistling in the dark through a graveyard.

    Just like driving through a GFZ, the real question that has to be answered is not if it's illegal, only a test case will decide that....the question should be...what are the chances of being charged with it.

    Obviously, much of LE would like us to think anything other than CHP permitted carry/possession, is illegal. Thus the Chilling Effect.
    The "law" says it is illegal to carry in a GFSZ w/o a permit from that state. Agree that it has never been tested and if a constitutional challenge were properly made is would likely be struck down. Were someone to propose deliberately carrying in violation in a GFSZ, that would be a violation of forum rules, but saying that arrest/prosecution for such is unlikely is not in violation of the same rules.

    Sometimes it is neither heads nor tails. When flipped, I'll call it: obverse or reverse.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    A plastic frezzer bag (large enough to fit your firearm) and Thunder wear (or something similar).
    The gun stays with you and is excessible, it's protected from the water/sand, it's out of sight (if that is what you're shooting for).
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The thread title could be amended to OC vs CC legal question, but don't see that is really necessary. The administration routinely allows questions regarding CHP training, discussions pertaining to permits and to 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons.

    The question of acceptability is therefore well documented. Reasonable?
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Richard is a friend of mine and has been for years.. I was just bustin his chops.
    I was clarifying for those that might have taken the question at face value.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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