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House passes SB303, constitutional carry amendment

sraacke

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,214
Location
Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
I seem to be confused about your thesis. Where you agreeing with my hypothesis: the proposed change to LA constitution will lead to a loss of more rights since it admits restrictions can be made? Or were you disagreeing?

I agree that it has the potential to lead to a loss of more rights since it admits restrictions can be made. Of course, our current wording does not admit to restrictions (except with regards to Pincus Carry) but that hasn't stopped them from imposing restrictions anyway.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
georg jetson,

I'd like to hear your argument against the bill.

I see no downside. We agree that government should never intrude on RKBA, and violators should be held accountable.

But, this proposed constitutional amendment declares that government cannot legitimately intrude on RKBA. That's a huge improvement over the present state, where the trampling of your rights enjoys the full protection of the state constitution.

So, which is it? Vote against 303 and continue the current violation of your rights, or vote for 303 and support expansion of your rights?

While i hope for the best for LA, the fact remains that we should be pushing in a different direction.

How about, instead of a "State" 2A, how about a repeal of the gun laws that restrict RKBA. Take Michigan for example. Open carry is legal there because there is no law preventing it.

I think we are all fighting in the wrong direction. If you think about it, we are still asking permission. Even with an amendment. Because its the people we put in office that have the final say.
 

Daylen

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Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
While i hope for the best for LA, the fact remains that we should be pushing in a different direction.

How about, instead of a "State" 2A, how about a repeal of the gun laws that restrict RKBA. Take Michigan for example. Open carry is legal there because there is no law preventing it.

I think we are all fighting in the wrong direction. If you think about it, we are still asking permission. Even with an amendment. Because its the people we put in office that have the final say.

I agree. Its hard to be more strict than "shall not infringe" or most stateside equivalents, yet it does little good. A codified repeal of all infringements and restrictions would be better. The only thing I'd like to see added to a constitutional protection is perhaps a penalty for voting for or writing a law that could restrict the right and a provision for enforcement to be done by anyone.
 

Tucker6900

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Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
I agree. Its hard to be more strict than "shall not infringe" or most stateside equivalents, yet it does little good. A codified repeal of all infringements and restrictions would be better. The only thing I'd like to see added to a constitutional protection is perhaps a penalty for voting for or writing a law that could restrict the right and a provision for enforcement to be done by anyone.

That would be a good start.

What we need is people in elected seats to trash laws that are not within the boundaries of the constitution.
 

KBCraig

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Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
I'm still not sure I understand the objection.

Yes, I understand what those objecting are saying, I just don't see why they believe it's potentially worse.

My paraphrase of the current constitution:
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for concealed carry."

And the proposed amendment:
"The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed."

I simply don't see where the loss, or potential loss, lies. "In plain English", as others noted above, it's pure win. The objections are speculative.

Does it give room for court shenanigans? Of course. But, no more than the courts already engage in. If you think you've got Constitutional-except-for-concealed Carry right now in Louisiana, you haven't been paying attention.
 

georg jetson

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Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
I'm still not sure I understand the objection.

Yes, I understand what those objecting are saying, I just don't see why they believe it's potentially worse.

My paraphrase of the current constitution:
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for concealed carry."

And the proposed amendment:
"The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed."

I simply don't see where the loss, or potential loss, lies. "In plain English", as others noted above, it's pure win. The objections are speculative.

Does it give room for court shenanigans? Of course. But, no more than the courts already engage in. If you think you've got Constitutional-except-for-concealed Carry right now in Louisiana, you haven't been paying attention.

Your paraphrase indicates why you don't believe it's potentially worse...

You left out the word "restriction"

The proposed amendment includes the word "restriction" making the word "infringed" useless.
 
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Hunterdave

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
214
Location
Bunkie, Louisiana, USA
I'm still not sure I understand the objection.

Yes, I understand what those objecting are saying, I just don't see why they believe it's potentially worse.

My paraphrase of the current constitution:
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for concealed carry."

And the proposed amendment:
"The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed."

I simply don't see where the loss, or potential loss, lies. "In plain English", as others noted above, it's pure win. The objections are speculative.

Does it give room for court shenanigans? Of course. But, no more than the courts already engage in. If you think you've got Constitutional-except-for-concealed Carry right now in Louisiana, you haven't been paying attention.

The proposed amendment doesn't stop there, it goes on to say"and any restriction shall be subject to strict scrutiny". There in lies the
problem. It opens the entire right, all aspects there of, to " strict scrutiny"'an unknown and changeable standard.It leaves that
determination in the hands of the courts. Yes, they have infringed on Art1 Sec11 before, contrary to its wording , but that left a hope
and a means to overturn in the future. With the new language, the court, after applying "strict scrutiny" determines it's in the best
interest of,fill in the blank, to restrict,fill in the blank, it's done and done constitutionally!!!
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I'm still not sure I understand the objection.

Yes, I understand what those objecting are saying, I just don't see why they believe it's potentially worse.

My paraphrase of the current constitution:
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for concealed carry."

And the proposed amendment:
"The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed."

I simply don't see where the loss, or potential loss, lies. "In plain English", as others noted above, it's pure win. The objections are speculative.

Does it give room for court shenanigans? Of course. But, no more than the courts already engage in. If you think you've got Constitutional-except-for-concealed Carry right now in Louisiana, you haven't been paying attention.

Your paraphrase of the proposed amendment is wrong. You seem to have ignored the following part of it: "and any restriction shall be subject..."

It allows for restrictions. So the correct paraphrase would be "The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed, unless we think there is a good reason for it."
 

oldgoat

Regular Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
100
Location
Sulphur, Louisiana, USA
A definition might help.

"The strict scrutiny standard is one of three employed by the courts in reviewing laws and government policies. The rational basis test is the lowest form of judicial scrutiny. It is used in cases where a plaintiff alleges that the legislature has made an Arbitrary or irrational decision. When employed, the Rational Basis Test usually results in a court upholding the constitutionality of the law, because the test gives great deference to the legislative branch. The heightened scrutiny test is used in cases involving matters of discrimination based on sex. As articulated in Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190, 97 S. Ct. 451, 50 L. Ed. 2d 397 (1976), "classifications by gender must serve important governmental objectives and must be substantially related to the achievement of those objectives."

Strict scrutiny is the most rigorous form of judicial review. The Supreme Court has identified the right to vote, the right to travel, and the right to privacy as fundamental rights worthy of protection by strict scrutiny. In addition, laws and policies that discriminate on the basis of race are categorized as suspect classifications that are presumptively impermissible and subject to strict scrutiny.

Once a court determines that strict scrutiny must be applied, it is presumed that the law or policy is unconstitutional. The government has the burden of proving that its challenged policy is constitutional. To withstand strict scrutiny, the government must show that its policy is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest. If this is proved, the state must then demonstrate that the legislation is narrowly tailored to achieve the intended result."
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
"The strict scrutiny standard is one of three employed by the courts in reviewing laws and government policies. The rational basis test is the lowest form of judicial scrutiny. It is used in cases where a plaintiff alleges that the legislature has made an Arbitrary or irrational decision. When employed, the Rational Basis Test usually results in a court upholding the constitutionality of the law, because the test gives great deference to the legislative branch. The heightened scrutiny test is used in cases involving matters of discrimination based on sex. As articulated in Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190, 97 S. Ct. 451, 50 L. Ed. 2d 397 (1976), "classifications by gender must serve important governmental objectives and must be substantially related to the achievement of those objectives."

Strict scrutiny is the most rigorous form of judicial review. The Supreme Court has identified the right to vote, the right to travel, and the right to privacy as fundamental rights worthy of protection by strict scrutiny. In addition, laws and policies that discriminate on the basis of race are categorized as suspect classifications that are presumptively impermissible and subject to strict scrutiny.

Once a court determines that strict scrutiny must be applied, it is presumed that the law or policy is unconstitutional. The government has the burden of proving that its challenged policy is constitutional. To withstand strict scrutiny, the government must show that its policy is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest. If this is proved, the state must then demonstrate that the legislation is narrowly tailored to achieve the intended result."

I posted a background of the Fed 3-level system of review here...
http://forum.opencarry.com/forums/s...on-the-federal-Three-Level-System-of-scrutiny

These are La. SC cases indicating the courts feeling of this system. It has since been proposed that the La. SC has come up with it's own system. It is the La. STATE definition would should be trying to discover.
 

KBCraig

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Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
Your paraphrase of the proposed amendment is wrong. You seem to have ignored the following part of it: "and any restriction shall be subject..."

It allows for restrictions. So the correct paraphrase would be "The right to keep, bear, posses, own, acquire, and transport arms shall not be infringed, unless we think there is a good reason for it."

Isn't that what you have right now? The current wording doesn't allow for any restrictions, but there sure are a lot of them.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Isn't that what you have right now? The current wording doesn't allow for any restrictions, but there sure are a lot of them.

Very true.

As can be seen in the cases that I posted in another thread, our supreme court has disgraced itself by forgetting(purposefully) that our state constitution is a document agreed on by the people AS WRITTEN. It is the constitution itself that creates the judiciary. Yes, the NRA is correct that the La. SC has eviscerated many of our supposedly "protected" rights. The only way to change the constitution is to amend it and NOT twist it with BS excuses.

We should be counteracting this by re-writing art. 1 sec 11 to say "...restrictions not explicit in this constitution are forbidden". Instead, we're saying this...

"Since you've ignored the word "abridged" we're gonna acquiesce and give you permission to restrict as long as the restriction passes some arbitrary test that you get to define AND interpret.

The NRA won't support my suggestion because they think that it's politically impossible. They might be correct. The NRA is just looking for a battle it can win. Unfortunately, winning this battle doesn't do much. If the SC can ignore the word "abridged" then it can ignore any word it wants to... this is an exercise in BS. We should not be tolerating this and yet SB303 re-enforces it.

Truth be told... you, me the NRA or anyone else have no idea what this new amendment will accomplish. So, we're voting for something... but what? We won't know 'till the appeals are filed.
 
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Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
"The strict scrutiny standard is one of three employed by the courts in reviewing laws and government policies. The rational basis test is the lowest form of judicial scrutiny. It is used in cases where a plaintiff alleges that the legislature has made an Arbitrary or irrational decision. When employed, the Rational Basis Test usually results in a court upholding the constitutionality of the law, because the test gives great deference to the legislative branch. The heightened scrutiny test is used in cases involving matters of discrimination based on sex. As articulated in Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190, 97 S. Ct. 451, 50 L. Ed. 2d 397 (1976), "classifications by gender must serve important governmental objectives and must be substantially related to the achievement of those objectives."

Strict scrutiny is the most rigorous form of judicial review. The Supreme Court has identified the right to vote, the right to travel, and the right to privacy as fundamental rights worthy of protection by strict scrutiny. In addition, laws and policies that discriminate on the basis of race are categorized as suspect classifications that are presumptively impermissible and subject to strict scrutiny.

Once a court determines that strict scrutiny must be applied, it is presumed that the law or policy is unconstitutional. The government has the burden of proving that its challenged policy is constitutional. To withstand strict scrutiny, the government must show that its policy is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest. If this is proved, the state must then demonstrate that the legislation is narrowly tailored to achieve the intended result."

Strict scrutiny is fine, but it doesn't have to admit restrictions might be permissible to have strict scrutiny. What is needed is a bill that repeals all restrictions not another amendment unless they simply want to remove the part about regulating CC.
 

DracoPaladine

New member
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1
Location
Shreveport
What current violation of rights? In reality, speaking strictly of state law and OC, the only real intrusion on gun rights so far is as follows:

1) That convicted felons may not get their weapon's possesion rights returned after serving their time.
2) Ocing is prohibited at businesses licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premesis.
3)I'll also include that the requirment to register machine guns, suppressors SBS and SBRs is an intrusion.
...

Your #2 is wrong. ONLY those places that have an OPEN BAR AREA does this pertain too. This does NOT pertain to let's say a mom and pops shop that serves beer.
 

sraacke

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,214
Location
Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
Your #2 is wrong. ONLY those places that have an OPEN BAR AREA does this pertain too. This does NOT pertain to let's say a mom and pops shop that serves beer.
Actually you are wrong. La law is VERY clear on this.
http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78744
RS 14:95.5
95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

Acts 1985, No. 765, §1.

Do Not Open Carry ANYWHERE you can drink a beer or other alcoholic beverage.

Oh...and by the way....
Welcome to the forum.
 
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Seigi

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
121
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA
Very true.

As can be seen in the cases that I posted in another thread, our supreme court has disgraced itself by forgetting(purposefully) that our state constitution is a document agreed on by the people AS WRITTEN. It is the constitution itself that creates the judiciary. Yes, the NRA is correct that the La. SC has eviscerated many of our supposedly "protected" rights. The only way to change the constitution is to amend it and NOT twist it with BS excuses.

We should be counteracting this by re-writing art. 1 sec 11 to say "...restrictions not explicit in this constitution are forbidden". Instead, we're saying this...

"Since you've ignored the word "abridged" we're gonna acquiesce and give you permission to restrict as long as the restriction passes some arbitrary test that you get to define AND interpret.

The NRA won't support my suggestion because they think that it's politically impossible. They might be correct. The NRA is just looking for a battle it can win. Unfortunately, winning this battle doesn't do much. If the SC can ignore the word "abridged" then it can ignore any word it wants to... this is an exercise in BS. We should not be tolerating this and yet SB303 re-enforces it.

Truth be told... you, me the NRA or anyone else have no idea what this new amendment will accomplish. So, we're voting for something... but what? We won't know 'till the appeals are filed.

We're voting to have the minimum standard the court will apply increased from rational basis to strict scrutiny. From "the legislature may have found" deferential rubber stamping to no less restrictive means to accomplish a compelling interest. It means the government will actually have to defend the causal chain that makes their law so very important, rather than useless if not counter-productive, and that they'll have to give up any excesses that can be trimmed without compromising that interest. Take the state school GFZ, for example - compelling interest in protection of children and educational environment? Court will probably say yes, if only out of precedent. Narrowly tailored? Does it even work? Case now hinges on a factual question with facts favorable to us and the burden of proof on the other guy. And none of the usual anti-gun lobby's shenanigans, either - the experts get cross examined, and if they bring half a picture that comes out. And even if the main fight is lost, how to justify the 1000 ft radius? Why is it needed at all? Why is it at least not smaller?

Why do bars prohibit armament to people who work for associated businesses making while making deliveries/pickups? When they're closed? When the person in question is a designated driver?

Assault weapons ban? Ban barrel shrouds? We've seen attempts at this. I don't expect the legislature to reliably police itself so I won't say it won't get passed...but I don't think it would be up for very long.

The list goes on, but the point is that the amendment gives us a stronger position from which to challenge restrictions. This is an upgrade to the courtroom viability of RKBA arguments in this state. There will be fights won under this that would be lost without it. Yes, a law that made the existing state RKBA provision absolute would be far more favorable, but that is the accurate comparison: more favorable. Not good vs bad but good vs better. Also, the way SB 303 was nearly neutered in the house committee indicates that the NRA was reasonable in believing that much more would be impossible. They're too moderate too often, as an organization, but in this particular case their restraint seems rational.

On the subject of it being better to have LASC uphold the current right as absolute, that's a very long shot and it doesn't get much longer with this amendment. For current law, legislative history, which the court would normally use, says that some restrictions are okay; after all, New Orleans had a registration or licensing scheme that was left alone. Precedent, which the court is also in the habit of using, will indicate that the standard might be rational basis (based on language used) and is certainly not higher than strict scrutiny (because restrictions survived it). The only other use of the word "abridged" in the state constitution? Weakly applied. In order to reach an absolute right they'd have to shrug off years of precedent, legislative history, other uses of the language, and persistent disregard of the right's importance to embrace the literal meaning of the text. If the court is that on board for RKBA they can add a line to the opinion to the effect that because the amendment was intended to increase protection it should serve as a floor, not a ceiling, on the protection of the right and so would not cause an absolute right to be subject to restrictions. Only if we have an ideologically neutral court gunning for pure textual interpretation would we be harmed by this amendment and that's an unrealistic contingency to commit for.

The "they think it isn't an absolute right" ship sailed long ago. I don't think that holding out for sinking it, especially while individual restrictions gain the acceptance and normalcy that comes with age, thereby making the job harder, is a good idea. Why not weaken it when we get the chance? What the NRA is "giving up" - the implied acceptance of restrictions - was already gone. Most people don't look to our text to see what the RKBA rights are; they look to what laws are on the books and conclude that those are okay and some even use standard legal research. When faced with a contradiction between what the constitution says and what the government says they listen to the latter. A rant for another day, but the point is that most people are not reaching "absolute right" under present conditions, and the people who are and might in the future don't usually look to the law for normative statements.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
What current violation of rights? In reality, speaking strictly of state law and OC, the only real intrusion on gun rights so far is as follows:

1) That convicted felons may not get their weapon's possesion rights returned after serving their time.
2) Ocing is prohibited at businesses licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premesis.
3)I'll also include that the requirment to register machine guns, suppressors SBS and SBRs is an intrusion.

SB303 fixes none of these. From an OC perspective, this bill does nothing, or maybe hurts us because it will now allow restrictions based on "strict scrutiny". I'm pretty sure the 3 things above will probably pass "strict scrutiny" (whatever that ends up being defined as).

What I see happening is more legislation coming from an emboldened legislature further restricting our rights and then letting this "strict scrutiny" thing play out in court costing people like me and you many thousands of dollars fighting an uphill battle.

Most importantly, SB303 does nothing to solve our real OC issue... the federal GFSZ law. Why are we messing with a perfectly good Article at the state level when our biggest problem is at the federal level?

If we're going to change Art 1 Sec 11, then the only way to do it is adding the phrase:

"This right CANNOT be restricted beyond the restrictions explicit in this Article".

Wow, I have no idea how you come to your conclusions on this amendment. The courts in Louisiana have pretty much destroyed LA's residents right to arms protections. They have allowed a great deal of unconstitutional law to stand, and the only thing that could not be brought under the current wording of the LA constitution and the courts ruling of it would be an all out ban on ownership. This amendment will change a great deal of legislation in LA, and will remove the requirement of a permit to conceal and so on. This would give LA the strongest Constitutional amendment in the country, and how someone can believe that is a bad thing is beyond me. The current wording of your amendment is nowhere near as strong as the one that has just been propsed, and any gun owner that does not vote for it is insane. This amendment will prohibit the courts from ruling in favor of any restriction on the right to keep and bear arms just because it sounds good or because precedent has allowed it in the past, because the wording will not allow them to do so. This is awesome for LA citizens who choose to bear arms, and I would certainly vote YES.
 
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4sooth

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
126
Location
, Louisiana, USA
Courts

I have always felt that the best way to address these issues is to statutorily restrict the power of the courts. Much of what we suffer under is "judge made" law. This should not be allowed since there seems to be no constitutional provision for this.
 
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