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Thread: Do you think open carrying makes you more or less of a target?

  1. #1
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    Do you think open carrying makes you more or less of a target?

    I recently was having this argument with my sister who Conceal Carries.

    She basically was saying that because you have a gun openly on your waste, you are going to be an immediate threat for criminals meaning you will be shot.

    I really disagreed with this argument except in a very very specific circumstance where the criminal is already in the process of robbing a store with a firearm.

    Her basic assumption was that a criminal isn't going to think and is just going to shoot you anyways because he thinks he will already get away with the crime...

    My assumption was that the majority of people who do armed robberies do not actually want to have to shoot somebody... a murder charge is a murder charge. An example of this being my friend, who has had multiple guns pulled on him in side his house of people purchasing from him, and he just sits there all chill and mocks them like they wont shoot... 100% of the people didn't shoot and just left.


    Back to open carrying... Doesn't it make sense that if a random criminal thinking about commiting a crime sees you open carrying a gun, he is going to think twice about commiting the crime against you? Why add an extra risk to the scenario? If I were in the criminal shoes I would not engage the man who definitely has a firearm, but rather wait for somebody who has the chance of not carrying any gun.

    Which argument is right? My sister is thinking that because you have a visible gun then to any criminal whether they commited they crime yet or not, is just going to shoot you because you are a threat to them, under the premis that the criminal is stupid/crazy. This is wrong right?



    I just want some input on this wonderful forum. Do you think Open Carrying makes you less of a target for violent crime, or more of a target?

  2. #2
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Bad guys whether it is a armed robber, burglar, car thief want an easy target. A person with a gun is not a easy target. On the other hand when the caca hits the fan, how many can get to a concealed weapon fast enough to make a difference?

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    I think it all depends on the situation and the criminal at hand. Is he your average thief trying to hold up a gas-n-go? I think if he sees your gun he will think twice more than likely. Yet if it is someone that simply doesn't care about killing someone then yes I believe he will shoot you first simply because you are the first threat he sees.

    I also think it depends on where you are geographically. Inner city, your probably shot first. Small town America probably not.

  4. #4
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    In my mind one of the biggest affirmations of the validity of OC is the dream/imagining of... what if...say....50% of the law abiding men and women out there OC'd. What a wonderful safe world it would be. The BG's would be scared silly to do that bad thing if there were more than one or two people around.

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    Well I agree with you that there are certain situations that could make you, not nececarily a target, but in the way of a certain crime that would lead a person to just go ahead and shoot the person that they see with a gun so they can complete their agenda. But as for the normal situation I think they would just either wait for later when you go away or think twice about comtting the crime at all. When they see you with a gun, they will think they just dodge a bullet and go home. However you never know what situation you might incounter (hence carrying in the first place) so you just might find that person who would shoot you so they can commit the crime.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I believe this discussion was had last year, and some members provided stats that did not prove out the theory of the OCer being shot first. Now maybe things have changed in a year. I have not looked at sats lately to see how many openly armed people were shot by a criminal attempting a crime.

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    But just like the other guy said if more people would just start carrying openly then people would quit coming up with thee idea to rob people

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    There is an offer of a certain amount of cash money to be paid for the first verified report that an OCer was shot solely because they were OCing. That offer has been out there longer than I have been registered on this site. To date no verifiable report has been submitted,

    This is as good a place as any to republicize the existence of the offer.

    Perhaps your sister could use some cash money?

    stay safe.
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    Two things to consider. The vast majority of criminals want it to be easy, a guy with a gun isn't as easy, especially when there are plenty of defenseless targets around.

    At the same time, a group jacking an armored car, or a psycho looking to get a body count on the news before killing himself probably isn't going to change their mind just because they run into someone who is armed. Likely having a gun on your hip is going to make you an early target.

    So which one do you expect to run into, and you have your answer. Look for a one size fits all, and you're out of luck.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    The idea that the OCer is the first target that'll be taken out by a criminal is based on the faulty premise that the OCer is standing guard at a bank being robbed by hardened criminals who have no qualms about murdering a security guard.

    Back in the real world, we OC everywhere -- to the grocery store, pumping gas, out for dinner, going for a walk, and just sitting on a park bench. The likelihood of us being robbed by hardened criminals going after the "big one!" is next to nil.

    Instead, the types of criminals we're likely to encounter are petty thieves, B&E, and the criminally insane.

    Petty thieves are likely to see our firearm and abort. If not, the moment we draw our firearm they're likely to abort. If they don't abort then, they're likely to wind up shot.

    Breakers and enterers are likely to be shot. If you live in a Castle law state, that case is closed.

    Those who're criminally insane are unlikely to scope you at all. Thus, you're just one of the many people they're trying to kill, and it's in your best interest, as well as those around you, to stop them.

    As for statistics, they're skimpy at best, but they tend to show that the OCer is slightly less likely than the general public of being assaulted, robbed, stabbed, or shot, but they're several times more likely to come out better off than the general population.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  11. #11
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    It is easy to make statements such as "someone OC'ing is going to be the first to be shot", but what is going to stump them is when you ask, "cites, please". Have them give you cites to back up their contention. They won't but will continue to assure you that they're right in their assessment.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    My thought is that fumbling around to uncover your concealed firearm is going to look pretty suspicious. I OC but make sure it is a majority of the time away from the crowds view I had this convo with a friend who OC's and he doesn't understand that in the case that you need it it could take 2-5 seconds longer to get it uncaught from you t-shirt IMO and from practice. I used to cc but after weeks of practicing draws and a majority of the time it getting caught I finally decided oc was best. Now of I have a button up overshirt I will cc either waistband or shoulder holster

  13. #13
    Regular Member Yaki's Avatar
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    I'm not a criminal so I can't get into their mindset but If i see someone with a open carried firearm I'm not going to try and start a confrontation. If one were started and i see the firearm I'm going to work my way out of the situation. Hmmm, even if i don't see a gun I'm going to try and de-escalate the situation so I guess it doesn't matter to me lol. I guess in my old age I just don't have the want to fight rather see my kids grow up and live their lives as opposed to from the grave or a prison becuase some idiot jury believed the state..

  14. #14
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
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    It's always been my feeling that open carry is a very effective deterrent against one being victimized by a random street thug, i.e.: mugging, assault, rape etc. To me it's sort of like nuclear weapons..If Iraq had been a nuclear power would we have invaded? I tend to agree with most that a criminal, even one that has no qualms about taking a life over the contents of your wallet would simply seek out an easier random target. The shoot first theory doesn't seem to hold water in that regard. As screwed up as someone is that would commit such an act, I still think self-preservation would reign supreme in their minds. Why risk getting shot to snatch a purse? Even if the criminal shoots first, a wounded victim that is armed, unless the criminal kills them is still a threat.

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    I feel open carry will deter undetermined and by chance criminals and maybe even stop them from confronting you entirely, but in the very rare and unlikely you get in a situation with a truly determined criminal like you would see almost exclusively in movies and on TV you could and most likely would become more of a target. Simply be aware of what's going on around you at all times, if you can't do that you shouldn't even think about carrying an exposed weapon no matter how secure your holster may be.
    Last edited by wolfgangmob; 06-06-2012 at 01:05 PM.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I feel open carry will deter undetermined and by chance criminals and maybe even stop them from confronting you entirely, but in the very rare and unlikely you get in a situation with a truly determined criminal like you would see almost exclusively in movies and on TV you could and most likely would become more of a target. Simply be aware of what's going on around you at all times, if you can't do that you shouldn't even think about carrying an exposed weapon no matter how secure your holster may be.
    Pure unadulterated Hollywood fabrication & TV mirrors it.

    One (1) known, confirmed happening in modern times anywhere in the USA, LEO's & security officers excluded. Find another, get it confirmed and you will have doubled the odds to be about .000002% - numerically insignificant.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Miss Black Rifle Disease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgangmob View Post
    I feel open carry will deter undetermined and by chance criminals and maybe even stop them from confronting you entirely, but in the very rare and unlikely you get in a situation with a truly determined criminal like you would see almost exclusively in movies and on TV you could and most likely would become more of a target. Simply be aware of what's going on around you at all times, if you can't do that you shouldn't even think about carrying an exposed weapon no matter how secure your holster may be.
    I do understand your point here, but may I suggest another view of it. You mentioned the, though rare, intent of the determined criminal. It seems to me that a criminal, determined in this manner, would also have a focused intent meaning you specifically. And in that case I would think you would be a target armed, unarmed, open carry or otherwise.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Bottom line......Those who don't want to OC are chick'n!!!

    We don't live in the 'Die Hard Movies'! Those who are against OC, almost guarranteed to reference this type of movie action as their reason for not OCing.

    Enjoy life, OC and confuse a BG!
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    I agree with most everyone here. We hear a lot about the OODA loop in SD. To me, OC interupts a BGs OODA loop better than anything else because it is the only "passive" way OODA loop interruption can be done. All other methods require some type of action on the victims part to let a BG know he needs to choose another target. (moving, talking, eye contact, confrontation, etc)

    Personally, I don't want a BG to underestimate my abilities & willingness to FIGHT. I want any potential BG to know he definitely will risk his life trying to victimize me. (I believe OC is the BEST way to get this message across & still remain "passive" as possible.)

    I'd rather not depend on the "mythical" element of surprise that so many CC'er have been brainwashed into believing exist. But alas, my state has not yet legalized OC. So, I must do what I can as a CCer to insure my families safety.

    -

    Last edited by tcox4freedom; 06-07-2012 at 10:57 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I agree with most everyone here.

    Personally, I don't want a BG to underestimate my abilities & willingness to FIGHT. I want any potential BG to know he definitely will risk his life trying to victimize me. (I believe OC is the BEST way to get this message across & still remain "passive" as possible.)

    I'd rather not depend on the "mythical" element of surprise that so many CC'er have been brainwashed into believing exist. But alas, my state has not yet legalized OC. So, I must do what I can as a CCer to insure my families safety.

    -
    Maybe 2012-2013 will be the "golden year" for South Carolina - get involved, make it happen.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Black Rifle Disease View Post
    I do understand your point here, but may I suggest another view of it. You mentioned the, though rare, intent of the determined criminal. It seems to me that a criminal, determined in this manner, would also have a focused intent meaning you specifically. And in that case I would think you would be a target armed, unarmed, open carry or otherwise.
    In the case of a one on one or a group on one encounter, yes, but in the case of a robbery if they are willing to kill it would move you to the top of the list fast. Now this situation is still probably a sign you should go buy a lottery ticket since you are so good at defying the odds, with under 1500 bank robberies a year and less than 1% having death occur if you are shot in a bank robbery you are in one of only 150 bad times to be in a bank anywhere in the US in a year, you stand a much better chance of getting killed from a firearm accident than a bank robbery and given the exposure times (banks v. guns) for people on here one is FAR more likely.

  22. #22
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    here ya go

    Two guys deter armed robbery of waffle house by open carrying.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/open...bbery-kennesaw

    Two guys deter armed robbery of waffle house by open carrying.

    When i do open carry I am in Condition Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
    Last edited by Dcarey; 06-13-2012 at 04:24 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    There is an offer of a certain amount of cash money to be paid for the first verified report that an OCer was shot solely because they were OCing. That offer has been out there longer than I have been registered on this site. To date no verifiable report has been submitted,

    This is as good a place as any to republicize the existence of the offer.

    Perhaps your sister could use some cash money?

    stay safe.
    I thought the offer was to show someone who was targeted for crime because they were OCing. And what about the individual who was the victim of a gun grab due to OCing. The one who then chased after the criminal and was then shot (presumptively with his own gun). Did people not submit the "proper" paperwork for that incident?

    Still, that is all of one incident in who knows how many years (there was another incident one can find on the web, but Dreamer contacted the cops and found out it was a false report and the individual was being charged as making a false report), compared to how often CCers have to pull their guns to defend theirselves since they look like any other defenseless target.

  24. #24
    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    So I had a small nuclear device surgically placed next to my heart. So if my heart stops beating for more then 30 seconds it goes off. Atomizing everything in a 500 meter radius. That way I get the guy that did it.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I thought the offer was to show someone who was targeted for crime because they were OCing. And what about the individual who was the victim of a gun grab due to OCing. The one who then chased after the criminal and was then shot (presumptively with his own gun). Did people not submit the "proper" paperwork for that incident?

    Still, that is all of one incident in who knows how many years (there was another incident one can find on the web, but Dreamer contacted the cops and found out it was a false report and the individual was being charged as making a false report), compared to how often CCers have to pull their guns to defend theirselves since they look like any other defenseless target.
    Skid keeps trying to volunteer somebody else's money - actually no cash prize was ever to my knowledge offered.

    No "paper work" required - just a simple verifiable cite, not that an OCer was a victim of a crime, but that he/she was preemptively taken out - killed. There has been one found and it was here in VA.

    There is a 2nd challenge with similar terms regarding a snatch of an OCd gun. Similar results but double the approximated numerical value of .000001%. I still like the odds.

    Even the one in VA.really doesn't fit the terms:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d-with-own-gun
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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