Reply With QuoteYou don't make any more sense posting as "jamieg" than you did posting as "berettabone", before you were banned.Originally Posted by jamieg
No, you don't. All you have to have is an opinion. All I'm saying is we should discuss the opinion, not the people. My opinion is that it doesn't make you any more of a target, and that conceal carry is an acceptable alternative for those who wish to defend themselves without announcing that they can, and I hope those that choose it over open carry never find themselves in need of that extra two tenths of a second (I mean that truly). If you have any questions about my opinion, or believe I am wrong in some way, please feel free to express why and I'll do my best to delve deeper.
You don't make any more sense posting as "jamieg" than you did posting as "berettabone", before you were banned.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
William Pitt
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
well i suppose none of you ever stopped to think that, alot of anti gun folks may be reading theese rants.
why dont you folks debate this in private email? ....tha laundry stinks.
I disagree. Defending yourself is a right. The founders of this country believed it to be a right given by god and so affirmed the right in the 2A.
People have to live with that. You can start qualifying and conditioning that right but you would be wrong. The training arguement is no more valid than all the other obsurd restrictions.... You can defend your self BUUUUTTT.... Not with a gun that holds more than 10 rounds, not with a gun with a removable magazine, not with a rifle whose barrel is shorter than 16", not with a gun that has a removable muzzle device, not with bullets deemed "cop killers", not if jamieg doesn't find your common sense up to par, not if you don't have regularly scheduled training....
Everyman has the right to defend.
Gun Control:
Obama-
“I just want you to know we’re working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”
Romney-
"I would have supported the original assault weapon ban"
In 2004, Gov. Romney signed a firearms reform bill that made permanent the ban on assault weapons and steeply increased fees on gun owners by 400%
Gary Johnson-
"I don't believe there should be any restrictions when it comes to firearms. None."
"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
Great Post!
Plus 1+
DISCLAIMER: No untrained firearms were used in the processing of McDonalds Chickens.
Predators tend to avoid attacking targets that are likely to fight back. There are exceptions to the rule, but the overwhelming majority of criminals will target small people, people who convey a lack of confidence, people who are not paying attention, sick people, old people, handicapped people, and women.
An openly carried firearm, combined with confidence and situational awareness, is likely to keep you from
becoming a target.
I think it makes you less of a target in every day situations. BG's want an easy target, and a person carrying a firearm is not an easy target. I think the only time OC'ing would make you a target better target than anyone else is in a mass shooting situation. However, I think most mass shooters choose gun free zones, not the grocery store, park, or another place you might be. I will continue to OC until statistically proven that open carry makes me a better target.
Cite please on where an OCer has ever been preemptively targeted in a mass shooting event. Actually not necessary as I already know the answer - you can't cite what hasn't happened.
Even an alleged test/study was a set up failure as the bad guy expert had advance knowledge of where the defensive gun was, rather than going in with no information and tunnel vision.
Wanna see how it happens in the real world? Google "Golden Market, Richmond, Va." where the BG came in and went right past an OCer to shoot the owner. BG paid for that with his life.
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/g...#axzz20oDY6dWf
Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-16-2012 at 12:50 PM. Reason: added
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.
Yata hey
Philip Van Cleave discusses self defense shooting incident at Golden Food Market Part 1 of 3,,,
On Saturday July 11, 2009 a violent criminal walked into Golden Food Market in Richmond, VA and immediately opened fire on the store clerk without warning. One of the customers in the store was openly carrying a single-action Colt .45; he shot the criminal in the stomach, saving at least six or seven lives.
In this video VCDL President Philip Van Cleave talks about his exclusive interview with the peaceably armed citizen who intervened and saved many lives that day.
Last edited by scott58dh; 07-17-2012 at 08:45 PM.
I Care, therefore, I Carry.
Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend. John 15:13
People say,*THIS* is everything. Velocity, Caliber, Placement, Permanent Cavity, Temporary Cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something." M. Ayoob
Obama 08, "just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can’t constrain the exercise of that right."
Ill be doing both. Conceal and carry and also open carry. Quite frankly, it's my choice and whether someone thinks it makes me more of a target....just doesn't matter to me. I take responsibility for my decisions. And this is my decision. Period.
There is no better way to make yourself a target than to appear to be a helpless person with no way to defend yourself. The CC crowd seems to have this down pat.
My thoughts exactly, if a person does not like my choices they might as well talk to themselves in the mirror, then they might have some control. My usual response when it comes to telling me what, how, where, and when is "bugger off".
This society would have a lot less problems if people would only worry about one person.
INAL but best legal advice from a non lawyer is "Talk to a lawyer".
I pretty much agree with this post.
Also, let's not forget about gun grabs. I just read about a recent one today that happened to an OC person. Luckily someone near by helped the OC person out and the bad guy gave up and ran away.
Can you provide a cite for the above?
INAL but best legal advice from a non lawyer is "Talk to a lawyer".
I think it all depends on the situation and the criminal at hand. Is he your average thief trying to hold up a gas-n-go? I think if he sees your gun he will think twice more than likely. Yet if it is someone that simply doesn't care about killing someone then yes I believe he will shoot you first simply because you are the first threat he sees.
I also think it depends on where you are geographically. Inner city, your probably shot first. Small town America probably not.
Perpetuating myths, urban legends and falsehoods doesn't make them true. There are two such that have become particularly offensive to LAC who responsibly OC. These are that the OCer will be preemptively taken out by a BG and that you will only have your gun taken from you. Both have been sufficiently debunked countless times/repeatedly. We have even come up with an illustrative mathematical expression of the odds of either happening = .00001%.
We speak to facts here, not I heard of it somewhere from somebody. The forum rules do address this. Credible user/posters understand, subscribe and adhere to this.
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.
Yata hey
Based solely on anecdotal evidence, quite a bit of anecdotal evidence by the way, OC is only a target for LE.
Liberals are very broadminded: they are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side.( Anonymous)
The only time someone has removed my firearm from my holster without my consent was a LEO. He illegally held on to it for about two hours and "ran" it, also illegally.
It wasn't a grab. He asked if he could take it. I said no. He informed me that he was going to take it. I told him that I did not consent, but that I would not resist his seizing my firearm. I suggested that the safest way would be to remove the entire holster, which he did.
I had a similar experience, the LEO (a newbie not quite up to speed on the law) "requested" to disarm me, I respectfully declined (I used your verbiage related to me by you in another thread many moons ago when still new to OCDO.....my apologies for the belated thanks). His partner (a veteran who knows the law) recommended to the LEO that I retain my firearm for the safety of all as long as my hands remained clear of my firearm. I asked if I were permitted to have my elbow rest against my firearm and the LEO got a quizzical look and the veteran waited about 10 seconds, shook his head and said that would be fine.
I provided my CCW endorsement as required by city code to "permit" OC (it's a Missouri thing) and was on my way, two minutes tops. The veteran cop thanked me for my cooperation turned and walked away, the LEO started to lecture but was interrupted by the veteran regarding another matter.
No harm no foul.
Liberals are very broadminded: they are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side.( Anonymous)
No problem - http://annarbor.com/news/crime/unarm...holstered-gun/
The article even labels the person as an OC advocate.
I provided a link to the article. It won't matter though. You'll still deny that it happened.
Wow. That was presumptive. I know that he will not deny it. He'll check it out and likely conclude that the incident is real. He will then surely point out that this one incident out of millions of carries (likely billions) is strong support for the contention that gun-grabs are a non-concern except that we should have retention systems for our OCed firearm and always maintain situational awareness.
But, GS is a rational person. Please treat him as such.
So... one instance proves a pattern? You may want to take a refresher on basic math. Statistically, OC does not make you a target. Plain and simple. Why is it that you feel the need to join an OC focused forum, and then bash the practice? How about you mind you own business if you have nothing helpful to contribute.
As my Great Grandmother used to say between scotchs and whoopins, "If you can't say anything nice, then shut your damned trap!". God rest her Irish Catholic soul :beer:
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
I never said it proves a pattern. But lets not all pretend this is the only gun grab on an OC'er that's ever happened. And no, I'm not going to google for you and provide you links to every single incident ever.
Statistically you'll never find yourself in a gun fight, yet you still carry right? So if you believe in the chance that some day you may need to draw your weapon, why wouldn't you believe in the chance that some day someone my try to grab your openly carried gun.
Lastly, does this forum not accept opposing views? I'm not here to troll people, just have open (no pun intended) and honest conversation.
Scott
Glock 23
White Hat iwb MaxTuck Holster
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