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Do you think open carrying makes you more or less of a target?

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
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Location
Valhalla
I pretty much agree with this post.

Also, let's not forget about gun grabs. I just read about a recent one today that happened to an OC person. Luckily someone near by helped the OC person out and the bad guy gave up and ran away.
Can you provide a cite for the above?
I provided a link to the article. It won't matter though. You'll still deny that it happened.

You seriously misrepresent your case. That is getting to be a habit.

When asked for a cite, you offer an attempted gun snatch - even the article states that it was attempted, not fruitful, wasn't accomplished.

With the danger you apparently see in the practice of LAC OCing, can you not cite a dozen or so recent qualifying events? Maybe over the last year? Or Maybe over the last 10 years? We'll wait.

Had this in fact been a valid gun snatch of an OCer, it would have changed our illustrative mathematical model to what, .000009%? Insignificance at best.

Your continued unwarranted assault on OC is why so many see your behavior as trollish and frankly is becoming tiresome. You do not respond to facts or logic - you display no willingness to learn from the preponderance of evidence.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
The point is though, is that it is not a myth. It does happen. There are even classes that teach gun grab prevention and grappling - why? Because it happens. Even after I provided a link, you still make statements like, we deal with facts on this site. Good, then please deal with the fact that I provided you a valid report of a gun grab. The reason there aren't a lot more OC gun grabs is because to be honest, there are that many people that OC compared to CC. Hell most people with permits don't even carry on a daily basis. I know like 6 people with permits and only one actually carries, and she carries in her purse.

BTW - There are not millions of people in this country that OC - sorry, that is a fact. If you can provide a link with stats that show the number of people in this country that OC daily, please do, I would find it interesting.

As you have challenged me on a fact, I feel compelled to respond, despite my having tried to move on. I did not say that millions of people OC. I said there are millions of instances of OC--significantly different. I myself am personally responsible for hundreds, likely over a thousand, of them.

And, one last time (since your silly challenge dragged me back into this), the myth that is being perpetuated is the myth that gun-grabs have to be a concern to OCers. The myth is not that there have been instances of attempted gun-grabs from OCers. I know of two, so no one is saying that it never happens. I suggest that you do some rereading. You clearly have not understood what others and I have posted.

I will remain moved on now--to the extent of placing you on ignore. You have amply demonstrated that all contact with you is a tremendous waste of my time.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Single family structures are susceptible to fire damage far more frequently than OC gun grabs.

Therefore, I submit that all single family homeowners move into tents. The odds of a tent being involved in a "structure fire" is far and away smaller than the odds that a single family structure will be involved in a fire.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
Well, this rational person insisted my claim was a myth, an urban legend, and a falsehood. Basically called me a liar.

No sir, I did not - that never happens. Your assertion is a person insult, which is a rule violation.

--snip--
If you try to google it you will find two, maybe three. There are only two that I know of that have been confirmed--and we have spent years looking for them. If you choose not to google it, then scan this site. You'll see the gun-grab myth busted again and again. Apart from hugely isolated instances, it really does not happen.

Moving on.

In spite of isolated reports, I have not found there to be but one possibly valid gun snatch of a LAC by a BG. Even that one had some questionable details - pushing, shoving match that caused the 1st time OCers gun to fall out of his unholstered waistband. Note that this was therefore IMO not a gun snatch.

The point is though, is that it is not a myth. It does happen. There are even classes that teach gun grab prevention and grappling - why? Because it happens. Even after I provided a link, you still make statements like, we deal with facts on this site. Good, then please deal with the fact that I provided you a valid report of a gun grab. The reason there aren't a lot more OC gun grabs is because to be honest, there are that many people that OC compared to CC. Hell most people with permits don't even carry on a daily basis. I know like 6 people with permits and only one actually carries, and she carries in her purse.

BTW - There are not millions of people in this country that OC - sorry, that is a fact. If you can provide a link with stats that show the number of people in this country that OC daily, please do, I would find it interesting.

The relationship between the population, number of people that OC vs CC, and gun snatches is a strawman argument. The only pertinent comparison is the number/percentage of OCers subjected to such gun snatches.
The rest is chaff, meaningless and with no redeeming value.

While we encourage open responsible dialog, we neither condone nor tolerate repeated assaults on the very foundation of OCDO, most particularly those whose only strength is in repetition, repetition, repetition. A falsehood repeated often enough is still a falsehood.

Me thinks it is time to begin editing.....selectively of course.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
..In spite of isolated reports, I have not found there to be but one possibly valid gun snatch of a LAC by a BG. Even that one had some questionable details - pushing, shoving match that caused the 1st time OCers gun to fall out of his unholstered waistband. Note that this was therefore IMO not a gun snatch....

I was giving the poster the benefit of the doubt and counting his example, making the total two. However, as you pointed out, this isn't necessarily a gun-grab so much as a failed attempt at a gun-grab.

But the point remains, as you have tried to illustrate, that gun-grabs, if they ever do happen, are so rare as not to be a reason to reconsider the practice of OC. The possibility, however, is a good reason to use effective retention techniques and equipment and to be situationally aware--practices that are also appropriate to CC.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
With 989 Threads On This Particular Topic Behind Us...

Am I the only person who thinks that this argument will never be settled? We are flagellating a deceased equine! (And, considering the way the thread is titled, the only reasonable answer should be "Yes" - thereby covering both without committing to either. It's the way politicians answer most questions of national importance!) :rolleyes: Pax...
 
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Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
The point is though, is that it is not a myth. It does happen. There are even classes that teach gun grab prevention and grappling - why? Because it happens. Even after I provided a link, you still make statements like, we deal with facts on this site. Good, then please deal with the fact that I provided you a valid report of a gun grab. The reason there aren't a lot more OC gun grabs is because to be honest, there are that many people that OC compared to CC. Hell most people with permits don't even carry on a daily basis. I know like 6 people with permits and only one actually carries, and she carries in her purse.

BTW - There are not millions of people in this country that OC - sorry, that is a fact. If you can provide a link with stats that show the number of people in this country that OC daily, please do, I would find it interesting.

How do you feel about the common cold? Do you go much in the Fall/Winter? Are you just as paranoid about catching the cold as the possibility of a OCer being involved in a highly unlikely propensity gun-grab?

As you have challenged me on a fact, I feel compelled to respond, despite my having tried to move on. I did not say that millions of people OC. I said there are millions of instances of OC--significantly different. I myself am personally responsible for hundreds, likely over a thousand, of them.

And, one last time (since your silly challenge dragged me back into this), the myth that is being perpetuated is the myth that gun-grabs have to be a concern to OCers. The myth is not that there have been instances of attempted gun-grabs from OCers. I know of two, so no one is saying that it never happens. I suggest that you do some rereading. You clearly have not understood what others and I have posted.

I will remain moved on now--to the extent of placing you on ignore. You have amply demonstrated that all contact with you is a tremendous waste of my time.

Bingo...some folks believe if it can happen and you should avoid it......my wife's grandmother loved to talk people out of driving...she just knew it would kill the family...all the car wrecks on the news. She died at 99, no one in her family died in a car wreck, thank goodness.

I was giving the poster the benefit of the doubt and counting his example, making the total two. However, as you pointed out, this isn't necessarily a gun-grab so much as a failed attempt at a gun-grab.

But the point remains, as you have tried to illustrate, that gun-grabs, if they ever do happen, are so rare as not to be a reason to reconsider the practice of OC. The possibility, however, is a good reason to use effective retention techniques and equipment and to be situationally aware--practices that are also appropriate to CC.

You and Grapeshot were more than generous with your comments. They were spot on.
 

ScottE

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
140
Location
Minnesota
How do you feel about the common cold? Do you go much in the Fall/Winter? Are you just as paranoid about catching the cold as the possibility of a OCer being involved in a highly unlikely propensity gun-grab?

The common cold gives one a runny nose. A gun grab means someone might die. Ask 1 out of 5 cops that are shot with their own gun.

I would never equate the seriousness of a gun grab to that of the common cold.
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
The common cold gives one a runny nose. A gun grab means someone might die. Ask 1 out of 5 cops that are shot with their own gun.

I would never equate the seriousness of a gun grab to that of the common cold.

So... 1 in 5 cops get shot with their own gun? Sounds like you're trying to invent statistics...again.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
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Location
Valhalla
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by ScottE

The common cold gives one a runny nose. A gun grab means someone might die. Ask 1 out of 5 cops that are shot with their own gun.

I would never equate the seriousness of a gun grab to that of the common cold.
So... 1 in 5 cops get shot with their own gun? Sounds like you're trying to invent statistics...again.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

His new specialty is hit and run - similar to a drive-by.
 

ScottE

Regular Member
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Messages
140
Location
Minnesota
So... 1 in 5 cops get shot with their own gun? Sounds like you're trying to invent statistics...again.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

You even quoted me and got it wrong. :banghead:

I said, 1 out of 5 cops shot, are shot with their own gun. Not 1 in 5 cops get shot with their own gun. - lol. And who is making up stats?

And two of your forum friends didn't bother to read either, just followed your lead.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
You even quoted me and got it wrong. :banghead:

I said, 1 out of 5 cops shot, are shot with their own gun. Not 1 in 5 cops get shot with their own gun. - lol. And who is making up stats?

And two of your forum friends didn't bother to read either, just followed your lead.


"There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent."
http://www.policeone.com/close-quar...Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/

Your claim exaggerates the actual percentage by 250% :eek:
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
"There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent."
http://www.policeone.com/close-quar...Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/

Your claim exaggerates the actual percentage by 250% :eek:

Hence our habit of requesting cites to support facts such as startling statistics. Thanks for the cite.

I think someone is giving us "talking point stats."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
Gun grab vs common cold

The common cold gives one a runny nose. A gun grab means someone might die. Ask 1 out of 5 cops that are shot with their own gun.

I would never equate the seriousness of a gun grab to that of the common cold.

Having debunked his 1/5 of LEOs shot are shot w/own gun claim, thought I'd take a look at the other half of ScottE's statement. Turns out he was wrong there too - the common cold can indeed be very dangerous.

An estimated 36,000 people die each year of influenza-related complications..........there is little doubt that RVs, which for many years have been regarded as relatively benign pathogens, can in fact cause considerable morbidity, cost a lot of money, and kill, particularly if the host is weak........
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/common-cold/complications.html

Now to put this all in perspective for OCDO, how many LAC have been killed as a result of having their gun snatched OR being preemptively taken out because the BG saw their gun? Let's go back over the last 20 years and count all of them in the US. Remember LEOs and security officers are not included in your search.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I'm much less likely to be harmed as a result of my OCing than by the common cold.
 

Redbaron007

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Joined
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Messages
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SW MO
Having debunked his 1/5 of LEOs shot are shot w/own gun claim, thought I'd take a look at the other half of ScottE's statement. Turns out he was wrong there too - the common cold can indeed be very dangerous.

An estimated 36,000 people die each year of influenza-related complications..........there is little doubt that RVs, which for many years have been regarded as relatively benign pathogens, can in fact cause considerable morbidity, cost a lot of money, and kill, particularly if the host is weak........
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/common-cold/complications.html

Now to put this all in perspective for OCDO, how many LAC have been killed as a result of having their gun snatched OR being preemptively taken out because the BG saw their gun? Let's go back over the last 20 years and count all of them in the US. Remember LEOs and security officers are not included in your search.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I'm much less likely to be harmed as a result of my OCing than by the common cold.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

lmao.gif

You kill me.....facts are great!
 

twoskinsonemanns

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WV
"There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent."
http://www.policeone.com/close-quar...Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/

Your claim exaggerates the actual percentage by 250% :eek:

As long as we are debunking myths let's use apples and apples. Let's not make subtle changes to make a point. Obviously a stat indicating a percentage of cops killed, should not be used to debunk a claim about cops shot. Unless we are proposing every cop shot, dies from the shooting.
 

Grapeshot

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As long as we are debunking myths let's use apples and apples. Let's not make subtle changes to make a point. Obviously a stat indicating a percentage of cops killed, should not be used to debunk a claim about cops shot. Unless we are proposing every cop shot, dies from the shooting.

The original contention was that LAC OCing was sooo dangerous. That was later changed to LEO shot with their own gun. I gave the closest FRI stats relating to that - you're welcome to improve upon it if you wish.

I'll give the extreme benefit of the doubt that 1 or 2 OCers have been shot and killed with their own gun - I know of one and the circumstances do not add up quite right.

Then consider that 36,000 people each year die from complications of rhino virus, influenza etc. and you will see why I said "I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I'm much less likely to be harmed as a result of my OCing than by the common cold." In case anyone missed it, that was sarcasm and that is a fact.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
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Messages
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WV
The original contention was that LAC OCing was sooo dangerous. That was later changed to LEO shot with their own gun. I gave the closest FRI stats relating to that - you're welcome to improve upon it if you wish.

I'll give the extreme benefit of the doubt that 1 or 2 OCers have been shot and killed with their own gun - I know of one and the circumstances do not add up quite right.

Then consider that 36,000 people each year die from complications of rhino virus, influenza etc. and you will see why I said "I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I'm much less likely to be harmed as a result of my OCing than by the common cold." In case anyone missed it, that was sarcasm and that is a fact.

I am in complete agreement with you as far as the asinine argument used by anit-OCers that there is ANY evidence that OCers will get their guns stolen from them and them killed with them. But I was just pointing out that when you said "Your claim exaggerates the actual percentage by 250%" you were using a different stat (cops killed) to refute his wild claim (cops shot). It can come across as spinning stats to make a point.
 
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